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BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion
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The commute from Rush to town will take roughly double the time under the new proposals. They’re don’t give any examples like that in the report either...0
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In all honesty, it's your attitude that is "aggressive and confrontational" in the last number of posts you've made.
You like and are all for this plan.. grand! But, as I've pointed out earlier, taking the approach that you (and others here) are will only harden resistance and apathy (ditto the RTFM responses from Jarret - the apparent wonderchild of public transport)
They need to be selling the benefits and making it very clear how people's specific existing routes or journeys will be affected. The route planner that someone suggested should have been a given with comparative estimates of current vs proposed journey times and cost.
Only then will people see any benefits. They aren't gonna read through multiple PDFs, squint at legends on maps and trawl through social media for the explanations.
Screaming "nobody's listening to us" at the start of *an open listening process* isn't confrontational?
The published plan didn't cover the intricacies of every single street, house, commuter, or existing route. They asked for submissions. People are reacting as though the plan was coming into effect tomorrow, exactly as is. Their public representatives, instead of actually learning anything, are screaming mindlessly "on their behalf".
That's more unhelpful than not having an exploration app available the same day as the pdf.0 -
charlietheminxx wrote: »The commute from Rush to town will take roughly double the time under the new proposals. They’re don’t give any examples like that in the report either...
It will take the same time by train which will be more frequent after the plan line could also be electrified and upgraded to DART.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Screaming "nobody's listening to us" at the start of *an open listening process* isn't confrontational?
The published plan didn't cover the intricacies of every single street, house, commuter, or existing route. They asked for submissions. People are reacting as though the plan was coming into effect tomorrow, exactly as is. Their public representatives, instead of actually learning anything, are screaming mindlessly "on their behalf".
That's more unhelpful than not having an exploration app available the same day as the pdf.
I have no.idea where you are comimg from or going with this. It might help you if you read back.over all posts instead of homing in on one and assuming to know whats going on.
A group.of people are worried over the proposal for ONE route that will affect them directly. They are elderly. They dont use the internet. They want to connect with the nta directly. The are going to use thier public representitives to do it on their behalf. This is what they voted for them for. They may get nowhere but they can say they tried. They want to.involve alone to make the tds aware of how they will be affected. No screaming. No shouting. Just a wish to be heard. As is thier entitlement. Once the nta are aware of the facts they may revise the decision.
No need for these hysterical posts about people being opposed to every aspect of the proposal. Chill0 -
It will take the same time by train which will be more frequent after the plan line could also be electrified and upgraded to DART.
The trains are at capacity as it stands, I’m not sure where you’ve heard they will be more frequent? It’s certainly not tied in with the Bus Connects proposals.0 -
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The G1 does not go to spiddal park. It goes to park west as the 79a does now. Thats quite clear on the map. Is anyone reading this plan properly?
You're right, a very short stub route of the 79 is going to be removed too. The overall service to the area is still massively improved though, with more than double the frequency!Your statement regarding just 200 meters is from your prospective and not those who use the bus. If these cuts go ahead then a local service should be retained as people dont need to drag shopping 200 meters.
What? Why? I could almost guarantee they're already travelling more than 200m from shops to the bus stop in the city.it looks like spiddal park and decies are losing service as th g1 will duplicate the 40 from ballyfermot making it slower from.inchicoe to town.
They're losing service right to their doorstep, yes. But there are good reasons for that. JW says it specifically (emphasis is mine) "a network designed solely around senior/disabled preferences for minimum walk and interchange is simply too slow to be useful for the rest of the population".
The reality is that Dublin has increasingly developed a bus network which is overwhelmingly designed more for the desires of the elderly at the expense of a useful and efficient transport system.
Dublin Bus is a creaking, aging beast of a network that cannot be maintained, and the whole city of Dublin will suffer if we continue to maintain short 300m spurs off of high-capacity roads to serve very low-density population housing estates.
This is the core philosophy at the heart of the BusConnects plan - simply the network to remove these ultra-localised spurs in favour of:
1. A simpler network to understand and traverse.
2. A more efficient journey to enable much higher frequencies.
3. Freed up capacity for better interchanging and orbital routes.
If you object to those changes in favour of elderly people having a route right to their doorstep, then fine, that's your prerogative. But ultimately, that's a philosophical disagreement with the underlying objectives of BusConnects, which leaves little or no room for discussion (so don't complain when people don't want to engage with people who take that POV).
The other reality is that a decision to compromise and allow ultra-local routing in one part of the network is the death of the project as a whole: there are no parts of Dublin inherently more deserving of ultra-local routing than others, which means if you compromise for one estate, there's no chance of not having to compromise for everywhere else.
People who wish to retain door-to-door routing for Dublin Bus had better start coming up with some alternative suggestions for how we actually rescue the bus network from the death spiral it is currently in, because simply burying your head in the sand and saying "It's fine the way it is" is a recipe for disaster.0 -
You're right, a very short stub route of the 79 is going to be removed too. The overall service to the area is still massively improved though, with more than double the frequency!
What? Why? I could almost guarantee they're already travelling more than 200m from shops to the bus stop in the city.
They're losing service right to their doorstep, yes. But there are good reasons for that. JW says it specifically (emphasis is mine) "a network designed solely around senior/disabled preferences for minimum walk and interchange is simply too slow to be useful for the rest of the population".
The reality is that Dublin has increasingly developed a bus network which is overwhelmingly designed more for the desires of the elderly at the expense of a useful and efficient transport system.
Dublin Bus is a creaking, aging beast of a network that cannot be maintained, and the whole city of Dublin will suffer if we continue to maintain short 300m spurs off of high-capacity roads to serve very low-density population housing estates.
This is the core philosophy at the heart of the BusConnects plan - simply the network to remove these ultra-localised spurs in favour of:
1. A simpler network to understand and traverse.
2. A more efficient journey to enable much higher frequencies.
3. Freed up capacity for better interchanging and orbital routes.
If you object to those changes in favour of elderly people having a route right to their doorstep, then fine, that's your prerogative. But ultimately, that's a philosophical disagreement with the underlying objectives of BusConnects, which leaves little or no room for discussion (so don't complain when people don't want to engage with people who take that POV).
The other reality is that a decision to compromise and allow ultra-local routing in one part of the network is the death of the project as a whole: there are no parts of Dublin inherently more deserving of ultra-local routing than others, which means if you compromise for one estate, there's no chance of not having to compromise for everywhere else.
People who wish to retain door-to-door routing for Dublin Bus had better start coming up with some alternative suggestions for how we actually rescue the bus network from the death spiral it is currently in, because simply burying your head in the sand and saying "It's fine the way it is" is a recipe for disaster.
It has nothing to do with door to door service. Its about the facilities along the route thats the problem. Post office doctor
Chemist etc. Its and old area and the city is a no go for a lot who are unable to walk any distance. Thats why the community aspect of the route is so important. Not everyone wants to get to the city and quicker. The current 79/ is busiestvfrom cherry orchard to lower ballyfermot off peak0 -
It has nothing to do with door to door service. Its about the facilities along the route thats the problem. Post office doctor
Chemist etc. Its and old area and the city is a no go for a lot who are unable to walk any distance. Thats why the community aspect of the route is so important. Not everyone wants to get to the city and quicker. The current 79/ is busiestvfrom cherry orchard to lower ballyfermot off peak
Any chance you could translate that into English0 -
I've yet to see anyone or meet anyone or ever hear anyone on a 79 or waiting for one of this 'rest of the population' complaining about the loop the 79 does in Spiddal Park slowing down the 79. The 79/A is fine. It's yet another route that does not need fixing.
It's a figment of anyone's imagination to describe going into Spiddal Park as being a problem that BusConnects needs to remedy.
It's only a problem for BusConnects because it doesn't fit into the dogmatic spine and connection approach.0 -
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It has nothing to do with door to door service. Its about the facilities along the route thats the problem. Post office doctor
Chemist etc. Its and old area and the city is a no go for a lot who are unable to walk any distance. Thats why the community aspect of the route is so important. Not everyone wants to get to the city and quicker. The current 79/ is busiestvfrom cherry orchard to lower ballyfermot off peak
But, you started this all of by complaining about the loss of the ultra-local sections of the 79, and now you're saying it has nothing to do with that?
And the new routes will still be travelling along that busiest section from Cherry Orchard to Lower Ballyfermot Road. As mentioned before, they'll be doing it at vastly improved frequencies too. So what's the problem?0 -
Only fools trade insults. If an opinion is different from yours its wrong. Says a lot more about you.
I don't actually think your opinion is 'wrong'. I just find the histrionics of it all amusing, bus stop moves 200m...."TAKE ME LEGS".
I know old people can be cranky but I didn't know they had such a flare for theatrics as a group.0 -
Slutmonkey57b wrote:So the upshot of their horrifically insulting attitude is that they were already aware of the lost service, were already considering alternatives, and asked for your feedback during an open consultation process, where they answered you, personally, out of over a million people who will be affected by the plans?Slutmonkey57b wrote:What a bunch of snooty elitists. How dare they. You pay their wages!
Actually it wasn't the NTA or Jarret Walker who replied, it was Daniel Costantino. Jarret Walker was very happy to ignore tweets regarding this, he only seems to reply people who have strong publicity. The NTA said to send them an email which I haven't gotten a reply from yet. Once again though I see that over exaggeration is something some users really love to do on this thread. Also for your information I don't live in those areas so it does not affect me actually. Some people do consider the impacts the network will have on other people not just themselves. And of course the NTA will be aware of this, and a number of people who raised this concern were ignored on Twitter, it was only through persistance that someone not from the NTA very kindly replied. Oh and the NTA asked the Public for their opinion on the liveries for PSO services. Only thing is they basically ignored the Public Consultation and went of and did their own thing. The livery that the NTA chose was also rejected by attendees of a disability meeting. So, I am sorry if one doesn't have a lot of faith in the NTA's public consultations.0 -
I live in Rathcoole, I dont take the bus into town, as its beyond a joke, the journey that it takes! Does anyone know if Busdirect will change this joke. Why cant I walk the other side of the carriageway over the pedestrian bridge and get a bus down the n7 without visiting half of west dublin?!:mad:0
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But, you started this all of by complaining about the loss of the ultra-local sections of the 79, and now you're saying it has nothing to do with that?
And the new routes will still be travelling along that busiest section from Cherry Orchard to Lower Ballyfermot Road. As mentioned before, they'll be doing it at vastly improved frequencies too. So what's the problem?
It will cut the very top.of the route with an elderly population from the rest of ballyfermot. How many times do i have to say it? Read the posts. Im not complaining about anything. The people who will be most affected are. People have now resorted to insulting them for thier concerns. Pitiful. We used to have respect for the elderly and value thier opinion. Times have changed. And not for the better. Buses will go empty to.park west off peak and at weekends as theres no reason to go there otherwise. Residential area where the bus is needed cut off. Senseless. Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. The elderely from all walks of life need help to be heard as they are not technically minded. They supported the service for 70 years and need it now more than ever.0 -
Stephen15 wrote:It will take the same time by train which will be more frequent after the plan line could also be electrified and upgraded to DART.
Only thing is the 90 minute fare will only apply for Luas/Dart/Bus services. People travelling North of Malahide will have to pay extra to use the train and are losing their Expresso route.0 -
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It's yet another route that does not need fixing.
Is it a dogma? Or making the point that, outside all these little local spurs, the plan is to increase capacity and reliability along the routes that everyone uses?
There are only so many buses and drivers available. To fix one part, resources need to be used wisely. You can either maintain every single little diversion, even the ones which individually don't have much impact, or you can sacrifice some to release time and resources and fix the bits that carry all the weight of passengers.
As someone else has repeatedly pointed out, the change being proposed for these passengers is moving the stop by 2-300 metres. That's not ridiculous, or unreasonable. If you're in meetings with these bus users, and your attitude is to inflame tempers instead of trying to help them, then what exactly is being achieved? This plan isn't going to help my commute, incidentally, in fact it may get worse. However I know other people who will be helped, and I know school kids who may be able to get to school where now they need to be driven because there's no bus route.
So everyone has to make tradeoffs. The plan's not set in stone, but the core concept of making buses regular, reliable, and frequent shouldn't be messed around with for the sake of parish pump politics, or for people ranting about their individual route before they've even engaged with the planners to discuss it.0 -
I've yet to see anyone or meet anyone or ever hear anyone on a 79 or waiting for one of this 'rest of the population' complaining about the loop the 79 does in Spiddal Park slowing down the 79. The 79/A is fine. It's yet another route that does not need fixing.
It's a figment of anyone's imagination to describe going into Spiddal Park as being a problem that BusConnects needs to remedy.
It's only a problem for BusConnects because it doesn't fit into the dogmatic spine and connection approach.
Exactly. Senseless.0 -
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I've yet to see anyone or meet anyone or ever hear anyone on a 79 or waiting for one of this 'rest of the population' complaining about the loop the 79 does in Spiddal Park slowing down the 79. The 79/A is fine. It's yet another route that does not need fixing.
It's a figment of anyone's imagination to describe going into Spiddal Park as being a problem that BusConnects needs to remedy.
It's only a problem for BusConnects because it doesn't fit into the dogmatic spine and connection approach.
It's a mistake to think of BusConnects in terms of fixing individual routes. That's not what it is doing, for the most part.
Part of what it is 'fixing' is removing these ultra-local spurs. These spurs generally take buses away from higher capacity roads in favour of housing estate streets. These spurs therefore slow down the bus routes. Going through an estate with narrow streets rather than using, for example Ballyfermot Road with its bus lanes is going to at the very least add 2-3 minutes over a 2km stretch*.
If you take them away, you get a number of benefits (such as making the network far simpler to understand and navigate) but specifically important is that you can use that saved time to increase the frequency of the routes that used to have to run on the spurs.
When you increase frequency, you of course get all sorts of benefits, but just generally you have a more useful, more used bus network that takes people away from car travel.
It doesn't particularly help anyone to start referring to this approach as dogma, because they are founded in plenty of measured evidence as to their effects.
That all said, it may well be that specific individual ultra-local spurs aren't particularly impactful on the spines that they feed into, and they could well be retained after consultation. Indeed Jarrett Walker has specifically said there will be room to make changes to the current maps, "quite possibly lots of them".
*I would also note that taking these side streets also adds a significant amount of unpredictability to journey times, as you're far more likely to encounter temporary blockages on them than on main roads.0 -
I think they really need to clarify this Leap 90 fares proposal again. This is essential to make transferring from one service to another viable which is a key part of this proposal. A lot of those losing out direct bus services in outer areas are being told that their train connection will be more frequent or that they will now have easier connection to the local train station to improve their options. But if the Leap 90 fare doesn't apply to these commuter rail services then that's a huge issue. I have asked and been told it won't apply to BE transfers (so no improvement in local connectivity to Kilcock which is a big issue for me) but no reply as to whether it will apply to services such as from Adamstown or Hazelhatch. They just state "DB, Luas, Dart" so looks like it won't apply.0
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It will cut the very top.of the route with an elderly population from the rest of ballyfermot. How many times do i have to say it?
So how can you possibly say it has nothing to do with "door to door service" when this is exactly what you're describing here? You're being completely self-contradictory.Read the posts. Im not complaining about anything. The people who will be most affected are.
No, the posts here really don't seem to be by the people who will be most affected. They seem to be mostly posting on behalf of those who they believe will be most affected.People have now resorted to insulting them for thier concerns. Pitiful.
Have they? I don't really see that here. I certainly haven't done so, and yet you refuse to engage with what I'm saying and instead are taking up some sort of reverse strawman argument where you use things other people might have said to shoot down what I'm saying to you.We used to have respect for the elderly and value thier opinion. Times have changed. And not for the better. Buses will go empty to.park west off peak and at weekends as theres no reason to go there otherwise. Residential area where the bus is needed cut off. Senseless. Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. The elderely from all walks of life need help to be heard as they are not technically minded. They supported the service for 70 years and need it now more than ever.
I'll say this, if you don't think this is complaining, I don't know what is.
Elderly voices will definitely be heard, in fact elderly voices have largely dictated the current shape of the Dublin Bus network. But their voices will be more balanced than before with the needs of everyone else in Dublin. That network shape is barely touched by the BusConnects redesign, except to simplify it to provide extra capacity for improved frequency. Again, you cannot have ultra-local services without losing the ability to increase frequency (unless you somehow find millions more to pour into Dublin Bus) - those two ideas are essentially diametrically opposed.0 -
One separate thing that I think needs to be addressed in BusConnects, or at least in parallel with it, by the NTA is tour buses and coaches in the city centre. A lot is made of BusConnects for drastically simplifying the through-city routes to account for the fact that it's a massive bottleneck, and that the College Green Plaza might be coming down the pipe (and Luas already has), but there's a big problem in critical bus routes in the CC with dozens of coaches and tour buses proliferating and taking up valuable road and stop space.
Just yesterday I was cycling up O'Connell Street and there was a massive tailback all the way back through College Green because a single tour bus had parked askew on O'Connell Street, blocking both lanes and preventing a Dublin Bus from getting past (which itself was then holding up the rest of traffic).
There needs to be some accounting of the routes that these tour buses and coaches are allowed to take, and they should be using stopping spaces that are completely separate from critical routes like OCS.0 -
Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote:I think they really need to clarify this Leap 90 fares proposal again. This is essential to make transferring from one service to another viable which is a key part of this proposal. A lot of those losing out direct bus services in outer areas are being told that their train connection will be more frequent or that they will now have easier connection to the local train station to improve their options. But if the Leap 90 fare doesn't apply to these commuter rail services then that's a huge issue. I have asked and been told it won't apply to BE transfers (so no improvement in local connectivity to Kilcock which is a big issue for me) but no reply as to whether it will apply to services such as from Adamstown or Hazelhatch. They just state "DB, Luas, Dart" so looks like it won't apply.
Unfortunately the NTA has said that Commuter Lines will not be part of leap 90 fare. It's rather odd really considering the Dart is to be extended to most of those areas you mentioned.
The other issue that needs to be addressed is whether the daily and weekly caps for the Bus/Luas/Dart will be the same or different, they have only mentioned a 90 minute fare what about the daily and weekly tickets? If they are going to make peoole use multiple operators they have to not be charged extra daily and weekly either. They also need to include the Commuter Lines, else they shouldn't be making people pay extra for their commute as they are getting rid of the extremely popular 33D and 33X.0 -
So how can you possibly say it has nothing to do with "door to door service" when this is exactly what you're describing here? You're being completely self-contradictory.
No, the posts here really don't seem to be by the people who will be most affected. They seem to be mostly posting on behalf of those who they believe will be most affected.
Have they? I don't really see that here. I certainly haven't done so, and yet you refuse to engage with what I'm saying and instead are taking up some sort of reverse strawman argument where you use things other people might have said to shoot down what I'm saying to you.
I'll say this, if you don't think this is complaining, I don't know what is.
Elderly voices will definitely be heard, in fact elderly voices have largely dictated the current shape of the Dublin Bus network. But their voices will be more balanced than before with the needs of everyone else in Dublin. That network shape is barely touched by the BusConnects redesign, except to simplify it to provide extra capacity for improved frequency. Again, you cannot have ultra-local services without losing the ability to increase frequency (unless you somehow find millions more to pour into Dublin Bus) - those two ideas are essentially diametrically opposed.
If you didnt see insults you didnt read the posts. All of your points have already been answered several time if you would care to take the time to read them instead of engsging in long winded repetative posts.
If your asking my opinion on the plan from what i see its quite a good one. However i have zero faith in dublin bus and its ability as a company to implement it . If theres a way to squander resources they will find it. If thrres an excuse to be invented they will find it.
Im finished my visits for the day now. This has entertained my clients no end and they are more determined to be heard now than they were this morning. People are only short of asking for mefical reports to prove thier infirmity0 -
If you didnt see insults you didnt read the posts. All of your points have already been answered several time if you would care to take the time to read them instead of engsging in long winded repetative posts.
If you don't like reading long posts, that's your issue. You might want to have a wee think about who is really being insulting though. Also you haven't answered what I asked, and your deflections just highlight that.If your asking my opinion on the plan from what i see its quite a good one. However i have zero faith in dublin bus and its ability as a company to implement it . If theres a way to squander resources they will find it. If thrres an excuse to be invented they will find it.
Yes well Dublin Bus aren't implementing the plan.Im finished my visits for the day now. This has entertained my clients no end and they are more determined to be heard now than they were this morning. People are only short of asking for mefical reports to prove thier infirmity
Perhaps you could do them a service by highlighting some of the benefits that improved quality of bus service will offer them? It would be more productive than what sounds very much like fearmongering (nobody is doubting anybody's infirmity, in case you haven't noticed).0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »I live in Rathcoole, I dont take the bus into town, as its beyond a joke, the journey that it takes! Does anyone know if Busdirect will change this joke. Why cant I walk the other side of the carriageway over the pedestrian bridge and get a bus down the n7 without visiting half of west dublin?!:mad:
242/W8 to saggart and luas or W8 to Hazelhatch and train is your best bet0 -
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Unfortunately the NTA has said that Commuter Lines will not be part of leap 90 fare. It's rather odd really considering the Dart is to be extended to most of those areas you mentioned.
The other issue that needs to be addressed is whether the daily and weekly caps for the Bus/Luas/Dart will be the same or different, they have only mentioned a 90 minute fare what about the daily and weekly tickets? If they are going to make peoole use multiple operators they have to not be charged extra daily and weekly either. They also need to include the Commuter Lines, else they shouldn't be making people pay extra for their commute as they are getting rid of the extremely popular 33D and 33X.
Well that's really disappointing and actually quite baffling tbh. Why promote access to services such as commuter rail as part of the plan then not include it in the fare structure? I haven't got any response from my query but this is difficult to believe.
At the moment we do at least benefit from fare capping and even from the €1 90 minute discount - I hope this will at least continue or this plan looks like it's going to cost me a lot of money!
Apart from the staggeringly WTF decision to significantly reduce weekend frequency on the C1/2 routes as compared to the current 25a/b, this fares issue is my major concern with this plan.0
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