BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

A2000

MJohnston wrote: »

If you don't like reading long posts, that's your issue. You might want to have a wee think about who is really being insulting though. Also you haven't answered what I asked, and your deflections just highlight that.



Yes well Dublin Bus aren't implementing the plan.





Perhaps you could do them a service by highlighting some of the benefits that improved quality of bus service will offer them? It would be more productive than what sounds very much like fearmongering (nobody is doubting anybody's infirmity, in case you haven't noticed).[/QUOTE

Jesus. Theres no.point. if dublin bus dont implemented the service then wh does . The buses will be operated in.part by them.You obviously have no.understanding of the issues here and i cant help you anymore with that. This thread has gone pages with repititions and people asking the same questions again and again. Doubting infirmity? They only have to walk 300 meters. The service will be better even though they cant use it. Brilliant logic.

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

I live in Rathcoole, I dont take the bus into town, as its beyond a joke, the journey that it takes! Does anyone know if Busdirect will change this joke. Why cant I walk the other side of the carriageway over the pedestrian bridge and get a bus down the n7 without visiting half of west dublin?!:mad:

Rathcoole will actually be quite well served by BusConnects. You'll have the 242 which is specifically designed to shuttle people from Rathcoole directly to the Saggart Luas station. It will have a 30 minute frequency. There will also be a W8 orbital route which will travel through Rathcoole towards the Hazelhatch train station.

If you don't like the train or Luas, the W8 orbital will also connect directly to a massive Tallaght bus interchange where there will be a large number of high-frequency spine routes heading into the city.

Most of the BusConnects routes seem to avoid the N7/Naas Road though, and I guess that's due to the one of the key principals being to reduce unnecessary duplication - the Red Line already serves most of that road at higher journey speeds than a bus could hope to reach, so the bus routes are designed to feed into the Luas rather than run along the same route as it.

thomasj

SG317 wrote:

Only thing is the 90 minute fare will only apply for Luas/Dart/Bus services. People travelling North of Malahide will have to pay extra to use the train and are losing their Expresso route.

I'm pretty sure the 90 minute fare will apply to the whole short hop area of dublin which includes the northern commuter line as far as skerries or Balbriggan

MJohnston

A2000 wrote: »

Jesus. Theres no.point. i didnt say dublin bus would be implementing it. I said they would be running it. Thats very different.

I will literally just quote what you said:

However i have zero faith in dublin bus and its ability as a company to implement it

So you're just lying now?

You obviously have no.understanding of the issues here and i cant help you anymore with that.

Look, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, but this is such a hypocritical thing to say.

This thread has gone pages with repititions and people asking the same questions again and again.

Yes, this happens when someone asks someone to clarify what they mean and they keep avoiding a proper response. Like you have done.

Doubting infirmity? They only have to walk 300 meters. The service will be better even though they cant use it. Brilliant logic.

That's your bad logic not mine. You're twisting things just to suit your own goals, and then claiming everyone else is being incomprehensible or insulting. Nope.

Dyr

Bray Head wrote: »

That's unfair. There is a wealth of material on the website about the plans to a very detailed level.

The plan presentation on busconnects.ie is a dogs dinner, no single document, no hyper linking between the maps to connect them logically, the actual comprehensive set of maps are in a sub menu that's doesn't have "maps" in its title. The titles are obviously invented by someone who does not have any familiarity with Dublin (oh hai JWA) "Inner north".

There should have been a mock up route planner and an interactive map that you could filter elements on.

It's really poor, like every irish public sector website is really poor.

On a related note, we have this doozie:" Of course, our judgments were not just based on data. Because we worked collaboratively – with NTA,
Dublin Bus, and local council staffs all involved – we were planning based on extensive local knowledge."

Sounds like JWA never put their boots on the ground to check out the lay of land but relied on some bodies with their own vested interests to inform this plan with their "extensive local knowledge" (lol). TBH it shows in places.

A2000

MJohnston wrote: »

I will literally just quote what you said:



So you're just lying now?



Look, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, but this is such a hypocritical thing to say.



Yes, this happens when someone asks someone to clarify what they mean and they keep avoiding a proper response. Like you have done.



That's your bad logic not mine. You're twisting things just to suit your own goals, and then claiming everyone else is being incomprehensible or insulting. Nope.

What goals? Ive reponnded till im blue in the face but if its not the response people want they ask for it again. I stopped responding several pages back. Twisting thing? Why. Perhaps you just have an overly cynical mind. I was going to say i will be at no loss if the bus to spiddal.park is cancelled but i suppose thats nor true. There will be more pressure on me in my job to get people where they need to go. Outside of hours. Unpaid. But i will do it. Because these eople cant do it themselves. Thatsxwhat community is about

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

Sounds like JWA never put their boots on the ground to check out the lay of land but relied on some bodies with their own vested interests to inform this plan with their "extensive local knowledge" (lol). TBH it shows in places.

I doubt this is correct, Walker himself was definitely on the ground in Dublin for a bit.

MJohnston

A2000 wrote: »

What goals? Ive reponnded till im blue in the face but if its not the response people want they ask for it again. I stopped responding several pages back.

No, you didn't respond. You said "this has nothing to do with door-to-door" and then proceeded to say that this was all to do with a specific door-to-door route that is being removed. That's just contradictory.

Twisting thing? Why. Perhaps you just have an overly cynical mind.

You're twisting things because I said there will be an extra 200m walk due to the removal of the 79 and you're twisting that into "They only have to walk 300 meters". Adding that "only" brings a very different meaning to the statement. You're attempting to invent callousness where there is none.

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

I think they really need to clarify this Leap 90 fares proposal again. This is essential to make transferring from one service to another viable which is a key part of this proposal. A lot of those losing out direct bus services in outer areas are being told that their train connection will be more frequent or that they will now have easier connection to the local train station to improve their options. But if the Leap 90 fare doesn't apply to these commuter rail services then that's a huge issue. I have asked and been told it won't apply to BE transfers (so no improvement in local connectivity to Kilcock which is a big issue for me) but no reply as to whether it will apply to services such as from Adamstown or Hazelhatch. They just state "DB, Luas, Dart" so looks like it won't apply.

Kilcock is not served by DB so it's irrelevant to any Bus Connects debate which is a plan for the DB network and not the BE commuter network.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

Kilcock is not served by DB so it's irrelevant to any Bus Connects debate which is a plan for the DB network and not the BE commuter network.

Since Kilcock traditionally had a DB service and lost it just as it grew massively as a commuter town I think it's to be expected that it will come up for locals. The plan is for the DB network but it includes a proposal to improve fares for transfer to other operators such as Dart and Luas. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss BE inclusion in the fare transfer proposal. But personally I think it's crazy that the W8 won't connect to Kilcock.

SG317

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Shane Ross's constiuncy of Stepaside (Belarmine) gets two bus routes one that goes directly into town and x3 frequency increase? While other areas of similar population in the outskirts only get one route, that doesn't always go into town either. Not to mention Belarmine is in close proximity to the Luas. Certainly they need a frequeny increase but what's proposed seems a bit too generous compared to other areas.

MJohnston

Problem with extending the W8 to Kilcock is it adds a 20 minute roundtrip to the route. When you're trying to maintain that 30 minute frequency then it requires a number of extra buses that would be moved off of another service. Added to that, the route would largely pass from Maynooth to Kilcock without any stops, which is the kind of route they're trying to eliminate.

SG317

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote:

Since Kilcock traditionally had a DB service and lost it just as it grew massively as a commuter town I think it's to be expected that it will come up for locals. The plan is for the DB network but it includes a proposal to improve fares for transfer to other operators such as Dart and Luas. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss BE inclusion in the fare transfer proposal. But personally I think it's crazy that the W8 won't connect to Kilcock.

Ah yes it used to be served by the 66. Unfortunately it lost its only service that was infrequent, like Glencullen, Toberberr, Rolestown, Kilgarron, Shop River and St. Margaret's will under the proposed network. 65 used to have a service to Donard before as-well. I agree that it's baffling and quite unfair that Commuter Lines/Dublin Short Hopper Zone won't be part of the 90 minute fare. Bus Connects said this as a reply on Twitter, for anyone that is wondering where this information is coming from. Especially since this plan is essentially forcing people onto the train it is very unfair too charge them more. Considering that the propsed network makes the whole transport network very profitable, as they are making sure most buses travel full, those that don't withdrawn, made shorter to interchange with other services etc. There isn't really an excuse to exclude the Commuter Lines from the 90 minute fare.

r93kaey5p2izun

MJohnston wrote: »

Problem with extending the W8 to Kilcock is it adds a 20 minute roundtrip to the route. When you're trying to maintain that 30 minute frequency then it requires a number of extra buses that would be moved off of another service. Added to that, the route would largely pass from Maynooth to Kilcock without any stops, which is the kind of route they're trying to eliminate.

I understand your points but people moved to Kilcock and made job decisions from Kilcock when it had a DB service and its loss was significant. Particularly if you don't just want to go to the city centre. Even if every third or fourth W8 went there it would help. But including BE transfers in the Leap 90 fares would be some help at least.

A2000

MJohnston wrote: »

No, you didn't respond. You said "this has nothing to do with door-to-door" and then proceeded to say that this was all to do with a specific door-to-door route that is being removed. That's just contradictory.






You're twisting things because I said there will be an extra 200m walk due to the removal of the 79 and you're twisting that into "They only have to walk 300 meters". Adding that "only" brings a very different meaning to the statement. You're attempting to invent callousness where there is none.

Re read the posts

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

I understand your points but people moved to Kilcock and made job decisions from Kilcock when it had a DB service and its loss was significant. Particularly if you don't just want to go to the city centre. Even if every third or fourth W8 went there it would help. But including BE transfers in the Leap 90 fares would be some help at least.

How useful would the direct BE service be for making connections?

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

How useful would the direct BE service be for making connections? T

Well it gets you to Maynooth and Liffey Valley so it could be good for connections but it's expensive. There's also several hours of a gap in the evening time (just when I need it). There are huge ongoing issues on it recently with buses not running and knock on effect of full buses - local councillors and media questioned whether this is possibly down to unofficial industrial action. Something serious is causing big issues in the past few months anyway. I think you have to drive now to live or work in Kilcock. I had dropped my work in Kilcock over it except that clients have decided to collect me instead, but I would like to see it sorted.

L1011

The W8 route as currently planned is to serve some massive trip generators - NUIM North Campus and the two ETB schools under construction. If anything it'll probably be extended further when Meath County Council get their dream of plonking an industrial estate right on the county boundary there.

MJohnston

What about the train from Kilcock? Is it too infrequent? I understand your complaints, but from the sounds of it, it's not a consequence of BusConnects but a decision that was made a while ago?

I can see the BusConnects service pattern inspiring a range of minibus shuttle services run by private operators in the future.

I think they do have an expectation that Park and Ride is part of the answer for remote commuter towns like this though.

donspeekinglesh

They tried a bus service from Maynooth to Kilcock in the last year or two. Didn't last long though.

r93kaey5p2izun

MJohnston wrote: »

What about the train from Kilcock? Is it too infrequent? I understand your complaints, but from the sounds of it, it's not a consequence of BusConnects but a decision that was made a while ago?

I can see the BusConnects service pattern inspiring a range of minibus shuttle services run by private operators in the future.

I think they do have an expectation that Park and Ride is part of the answer for remote commuter towns like this though.

The train is too infrequent and of no use if you want to go to Lucan, Clondalkin, Celbridge.

I think calling Kilcock remote is stretching it! It's no further than Balbriggan and it's the next town to one of the country's main universities. But yes this is not caused by Bus Connects. I just think it's a massive missed opportunity to address connectivity issues in the area, at the very least with the fares.

Anyway, I only mentioned Kilcock initially as an aside but it was picked up by another poster - my main issues are with commuter rail exclusion from the fares and with weekend reduced frequency for the proposed C1/2.

dublinman1990

The IT article that was posted earlier when it said that Dublin would be using 28 seater single deck buses as an exact size is not really an absolute given.

When a bus company or transport authority attempts to order single deck buses from any bus manufacturer for a city; they approach a certain point in reality. And that is the manufacturers say the point that not all of their products offered for purchase are equal to one another when talking about size and number of seats. The NTA in this instance have probably understood this concept already when they've ordered Streetlites for Dublin Bus, Go Ahead & Bus Eireann.

Later on in the year; the NTA will start ordering hybrid buses when they start their upcoming planned hybrid bus trial with Dublin Bus. It has been heard from Dublin Bus & the NTA sometime ago, without official plans being announced, that they are to be leasing 9 hybrid buses for a period of one year from 3 different manufacturers. This would mean that the quality of the leased buses on offer will be varied which might say to us that they won't be the same quality as a Streetlite or an SG if were talking about double deck buses. They will be only allocated on one specific Dublin Bus route which may begin a lot of debate about what route will be suitable for them.

Also when Busconnects is implemented by the NTA in full by 2020; the bus allocation after this plan for Dublin Bus may have to be much more strict when allocating parts of their fleet to certain routes. High frequency Spine routes would have to be allocated double deck buses to help attract higher numbers of passengers through the whole day. Orbital routes would be the same as the Spine routes; double deckers all around for those particular routes.

Local routes likewise would be sensible to stick with single deckers to keep the demand steady and reasonable to a point to where they don't get overloaded.

The challenge for Dublin Bus right now is that the majority of it's fleet are double deck buses. The NTA were attempting to be realistic in keeping bus demand for a lot of their current routes to be at a constant. The problem is that on certain routes through parts of the city during peak times; they are currently going past stops where they go past their stops when full. The NTA don't want to be in an even worse situation, when BusConnects is implemented, when again bus demand for certain routes probably outside the city will become oversubscribed to a point in where it will become unusable.

If BusConnects doesn't address these overcrowding concerns from 2020 onwards; it will eventually become a failure. I don't really want to envisage that happening when the entire bus network in Dublin is changed from a certain date overnight because if the overcrowding concerns still happen once implemented; it will be a embarrassment from people from within the NTA and for the bus users in general. We have to be reminded once again that this plan is a once in a generation changeover. It is a risk that is seen to be a big success or a big failure overtime. The NTA have been organized so far in trying to put all out these plans of improving the bus corridors around the city, bringing in improvements to the fares for Leap Card users along with changes to it's own network.

But all of it will hang when day one of implementation starts in 2020. It will be a huge change to the surroundings of the city at large. I will be hoping that this plan will be a huge success for people living here in Dublin. It should be regarded as a huge achievement once it's set in stone & implemented in full.

L1011

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

They tried a bus service from Maynooth to Kilcock in the last year or two. Didn't last long though.

Didn't even see it once; effectively unpromoted, no signs on any stops, etc etc. Not NTA funded so it was doomed really.

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/sites/default/files/assets/document/Mullally%20Kilcock%20Maynooth%20Town%20Link%20-%20Timetable%20received%2024.8.15_0.pdf

Kilcock's train service is quite poor.

r93kaey5p2izun

Sorry, for the uninitiated, what's a "Euro bogey"? Thanks.

I take 40-50 buses per week so I really want this plan to work. Trying hard to understand all the different possibilities across the many areas I frequent.

jd

It will not be implemented in full, even Mr Walker hasn't that expectation.
You will see changes in the final design eg E branch out to St Margarets, C branch through Sandymount Village etc

jd

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Sorry, for the uninitiated, what's a "Euro bogey"? Thanks.

http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/AWWV.html

devnull

Apparently Jarrett Walker, the NTA and Dublin Bus spent a week virtually locked in a room thrashing a lot of it out.

Dyr

Amazed that himself and shane ross didnt just sit down with a map and crayons given the vast amount of bus experience that they've now amassed between them

SG317

Bambi wrote:

Amazed that himself and shane ross didnt just sit down with a map and crayons given the vast amount of bus experience that they've now amassed between them

Ah but Shane Ross gave Belarmine Stepaside (his constituency) two bus routes one direct into town and x3 frequency boost. Surprised that he didn't keep the 84, seemed to be a fan of it when he got on a bus for the first time.

Cookie_Monster

Stephen15 wrote: »

Interesting read Wellington in NZ is only getting it's new network now which was first proposed by Jarett in 2011

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105050384/wellingtons-new-bus-network-promises-to-be-simpler-and-more-reliable

The current Wellington network is already pretty good though and the tag on off system works peoperly unlike leap so it's not a great comparison tbh. Ultimately it's still about improvements but Wellington was already in a far better position than Dublin anyway