BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

sharper

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Chapelizod and Islandbridge are over-serviced as is. Let's solve that problem first thien straighten out the 66/67.

The people in Islandbridge and Chapelizod will probably have the same reaction as you do to changing the 25's.

This is why any network redesign is going to be such fun.

BonnieSituation

sharper wrote: »

The people in Islandbridge and Chapelizod will probably have the same reaction as you do to changing the 25's.

This is why any network redesign is going to be such fun.

Am I missing something? Surely a 26 with higher frequency as I described above with the straightening out of the 66/67 would cure most ills on the routes?

In response to lxflyer who keeps going on about people needing to access Chapelizod and Islandbridge. Get off at Palmerstown. Get a (new) 26. Problem solved.
Getting on bus and seeing it go an obviously slower and more painful route needlessly is one of Dublin’s greatest annoyances. There is no need for all Lucan Road buses to go through CZ and IB none.

Also, those in CZ and IB are much closer to the city so their transportation needs aren’t as fraught as those stuck with no other (read train) options way out west.

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Am I missing something? Surely a 26 with higher frequency as I described above with the straightening out of the 66/67 would cure most ills on the routes?

In response to lxflyer who keeps going on about people needing to access Chapelizod and Islandbridge. Get off at Palmerstown. Get a (new) 26. Problem solved.
Getting on bus and seeing it go an obviously slower and more painful route needlessly is one of Dublin?s greatest annoyances. There is no need for all Lucan Road buses to go through CZ and IB none.

Also, those in CZ and IB are much closer to the city so their transportation needs aren?t as fraught as those stuck with no other (read train) options way out west.

The problem is that most people see the issue only from their own perspective - getting a balanced solution that pleases everyone is never easy.

At the same time the amount of available resources (buses and drivers) will be a factor in what can be delivered. The requirement to pay two fares would certainly have been a factor in building the current service pattern if Celbridge and Islandbridge lost their Lucan QBC connection.

Again though outside of peak times the time differential is only 5 minutes - I do think people are going OTT about that.

At peak times the Xpressos allow faster journeys for those travelling longer distances - they need more of them with longer operating hours. That applies across the city on longer routes.

hmmm

Using the 25/66/67s as an example, I don't see why it makes any sense to send buses with 80 people going to a long distance location (Lucan/Maynooth/Leixlip) through some traffic bottleneck so that 4 or 5 people can get off at an intermediate location. We have these meandering buses that take forever to get anywhere. This applies for multiple other routes also.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

The problem is that most people see the issue only from their own perspective - getting a balanced solution that pleases everyone is never easy.

At the same time the amount of available resources (buses and drivers) will be a factor in what can be delivered. The requirement to pay two fares would certainly have been a factor in building the current service pattern if Celbridge and Islandbridge lost their Lucan QBC connection.

Again though outside of peak times the time differential is only 5 minutes - I do think people are going OTT about that.

At peak times the Xpressos allow faster journeys for those travelling longer distances - they need more of them with longer operating hours. That applies across the city on longer routes.

The Xpressos are not the panacea. The 66X takes 1.5 hours to get from UCD to Leixlip, 1 hour longer than driving.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

The Xpressos are not the panacea. The 66X takes 1.5 hours to get from UCD to Leixlip, 1 hour longer than driving.

Again let's have a bit of reality here. I do not believe that driving from UCD to Leixlip can be done in 30 minutes during the evening peak. That is a nonsense argument. It also suggest to me that no bus would suit you, and that therefore it's kind of irrelevant which route they take.

The Xpressos serve people from UCD to the city centre that are travelling to points along the Lucan QBC.

However, clearly you would not drive through the city centre but rather via the M50. But if you did I very much doubt you could do it in a much faster time than the bus.

However that is not going to fill a bus - serving UCD facilitates the vast majority of students who don't drive and facilitates regular commuters as well.

And who said any extra Xpressos would have to start at UCD? Why not run them from Merrion Square or Pearse St? That's where the extra demand would be.

By the sounds of things I think it would be frankly impossible to satisfy your expectations of public transport, given that from reading your posts over the years it would appear that you seem to think you're entitled to a door to door personal all day direct express service by Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Airport Hopper at the expense of everyone else.

I think you need to start accepting that isn't going to happen. Using public transport will always involve having to make some compromises.

Spanish Eyes

Just throwing in my tuppence.

The only advantage I see the X buses having is using the CZ by pass. There are numerous stops on those routes.

Surely there could be a decision made that the first stop after Heuston for 66X and 67X is the West side of Lucan.

Surely if you are travelling to Celbridge, Maynooth or Leixlip on the X you don't want a gaggle of passengers to alight in Palmerstown and Liffey Valley. But I'm sure there is a logical explanation!

Just thinking out loud here.

sharper

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Surely if you are travelling to Celbridge, Maynooth or Leixlip on the X you don't want a gaggle of passengers to alight in Palmerstown and Liffey Valley. But I'm sure there is a logical explanation!

The only reason I can think of is the 66X is the only service that goes through Glen Easton (which adds another bit of running time to a supposedly more direct service).

The regular 66 usually empties out quite a bit by the time it gets to Liffey Valley and it's almost as direct to Maynooth from there. Plus it would be cheaper for anyone not using a ticket.

trellheim

wasnt this what minimum fare was supposed to stop ?

Also the pinchpoints on the existing route is Chapelizod village and Coynyngham road at Park Gate , .. not sure what can be done there except a bridge and junction redesign.

Outside Conyngham road bus garage needs a full time copper or ANPR to fix , they would clean up for bus lane violations

Spanish Eyes

trellheim wrote: »

wasnt this what minimum fare was supposed to stop ?

Also the pinchpoints on the existing route is Chapelizod village and Coynyngham road at Park Gate , .. not sure what can be done there except a bridge and junction redesign.

Outside Conyngham road bus garage needs a full time copper or ANPR to fix , they would clean up for bus lane violations

Yes, and that worked to an extent at one point. But now with LEAP caps, Taxsaver and monthly tickets, commuters will get any bus. Hence my point about the first stop outwards being West of Lucan.

Spanish Eyes

Re the pinch point on Conyngham Road, surely "no left turn" onto Chesterfield Avenue and a continuation of the bus lane would be in order there?

Probably too sensible though..

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Again let's have a bit of reality here. I do not believe that driving from UCD to Leixlip can be done in 30 minutes during the evening peak. That is a nonsense argument. It also suggest to me that no bus would suit you, and that therefore it's kind of irrelevant which route they take.

Ok a bit of reality here. I didn't read the rest of your post. My daughter drives to AND from UCD. It takes 30 minutes unless there has been an accident.

You are the first person to call people up in their lack of personal experience. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok a bit of reality here. I didn't read the rest of your post. My daughter drives to AND from UCD. It takes 30 minutes unless there has been an accident.

You are the first person to call people up in their lack of personal experience. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.

And is that driving home via town between 16:30 and 18:30?

I doubt it.

What route does she take that can do that trip in 30 minutes between 16:30 and 18:30 out of curiosity?

I suspect that you are comparing apples with oranges here.

Someone in a car taking a presumably more direct route from UCD to Leixlip is not the same as a bus that also picks up throughout the city centre.

You're not being realistic in your expectations of public transport as I said in my post above which you should read, because it explains why the 66X goes the way it does.

n97 mini

KmShe doesn't drive through town, why would she? You're upselling the Xpressos and I'm saying they're not the panacea. You've also tacked on the garbage bit about driving through town to your original argument.

In fact one of the consequences of them starting at UCD is they're quite often full by the time they get to the cc.

punisher5112

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok a bit of reality here. I didn't read the rest of your post. My daughter drives to AND from UCD. It takes 30 minutes unless there has been an accident.

You are the first person to call people up in their lack of personal experience. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.

Go on tell the time of journey and route as if its in traffic it will take way longer.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

She doesn't drive through town, why would she? You're upselling the Xpressos and I'm saying they're not the panacea.

In fact one of the consequences of them starting at UCD is they're quite often full by the time they get to the cc.

Well you are not comparing like with like for a start. You're coming up with a comparison between someone driving direct, and a bus that is serving two markets - the city centre and UCD. Most students don't have the luxury of a car to be fair.

By not reading my earlier post you then missed the rather relevant point I made which was - why would you have to necessarily start any additional 66X and 67X services from UCD?

They could start in Merrion Square or the City Centre where the demand is greatest.

Just because some go from UCD doesn't mean all of them have to. They don't all do as it is.

I'm suggesting a solution for longer distance commuters on the Lucan QBC from the City Centre.

StreetLight

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Re the pinch point on Conyngham Road, surely "no left turn" onto Chesterfield Avenue and a continuation of the bus lane would be in order there?

Probably too sensible though..

That's exactly the way it was until it was changed a few years ago. The bus lane on Parkgate Street might as well not be there - always full of parked cars outside the Post Office end.

n97 mini

punisher5112 wrote: »

Go on tell the time of journey and route as if its in traffic it will take way longer.

What are you asking? Do you want confirmation that driving is 3 times quicker than the bus?

punisher5112

n97 mini wrote: »

What are you asking? Do you want confirmation that driving is 3 times quicker than the bus?

Hours of driving as in if its 6 am no problem but 4 pm onwards could be sitting an hour or more in traffic.

And no I don't need confirmation. I fully get what you are saying but in some instances the bus is quicker and just a better idea.

Depending on times I am working I fly in once at the right times.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you are not comparing like with like for a start. You're coming up with a comparison between someone driving direct, and a bus that is serving two markets - the city centre and UCD. Most students don't have the luxury of a car to be fair.

By not reading my earlier post you then missed the rather relevant point I made which was - why would you have to necessarily start any additional 66X and 67X services from UCD?

They could start in Merrion Square or the City Centre where the demand is greatest.

Just because some go from UCD doesn't mean all of them have to. They don't all do as it is.

I'm suggesting a solution for longer distance commuters on the Lucan QBC from the City Centre.

You're not getting my point, deliberately I suspect. The Xpressos​ are a half assed attempt to get around the lack of proper routes. And they don't work.

n97 mini

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hours of driving as in if its 6 am no problem but 4 pm onwards could be sitting an hour or more in traffic.

And no I don't need confirmation. I fully get what you are saying but in some instances the bus is quicker and just a better idea.

Depending on times I am working I fly in once at the right times.

In this instance, the 66x is never quicker than driving. The only thing it's quicker than is in non X services.

L1011

The 67 runs outside my door. The 67X is never quicker than driving, to anywhere.

DB effectively killed via nefarious means the only semi-fast bus service that west Dublin ever had, not that it served Maynooth.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

You're not getting my point, deliberately I suspect. The Xpressos​ are a half assed attempt to get around the lack of proper routes. And they don't work.

With respect, no I am not being deliberately obtuse - you're pretty much saying that no bus works for you be it 66X or regular 66A.

Therefore I find it difficult to believe that there is a bus solution for you, which makes this entire discussion rather pointless.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, no I am not being deliberately obtuse - you're pretty much saying that no bus works for you be it 66X or regular 66A.

Therefore I find it difficult to believe that there is a bus solution for you, which makes this entire discussion rather pointless.

Misquote often? I said already that a direct 66/67 (bypassing Chapelizod) works for me. This what this whole conversation is about. And just to show how ridiculous it is that they run that route and I have no self interest, I'd be content if they ran they bypass and the 66a/b didn't.

Carawaystick

bk wrote: »

lxflyer last week we hear that Ireland has the second most expensive public transport in Europe.

I wouldn't mind that if we had the second best public transport network in Europe. But the opposite is true, we probably have one of the worst public transport services in Europe and that simply isn't good enough.

It is simply nonsense that the most basic improvements in public transport that were common throughout the rest of Europe 40 or 50 years ago (multi-door buses, integrated ticketing, etc.) still can't be implemented here in Ireland in the 20th century.

That when anyone suggests even the most basic improvement that the come back is always the same old tired "it will cost more money" and we need to make the taxpayer pay more for it. All while have the second most expensive public transport system.

The truth is taxpayers of Ireland are getting screwed. It is enough with the excuses and for the public transport providers to actually deliver a high quality public transport service to reflect the second most expensive public transport service in Europe.

The bus is expensive because the subvention is low

Public transit is a public good. Look at the costs of congestion, they would be reduced if there was better public transit

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

The 67 runs outside my door. The 67X is never quicker than driving, to anywhere.

DB effectively killed via nefarious means the only semi-fast bus service that west Dublin ever had, not that it served Maynooth.

Presumably you're referring to Mortons?

They had a very good product as you say with the morning and evening express services to Celbridge and Lucan.

But I think you'll find it was their expansion into an all day service to/from Celbridge that was their own undoing.

For their own reasons they weren't able to operate the all day timetable for a significant period that they had been licensed by DoT to operate, and at the same time were not able to tell people which services were operating as that would be a breach of their licence.

They set up an all day commercial service against the subsidised 67 (which had cheaper fares) - while it went via the Chapelizod bypass, the time differential during the day was minimal.

But no one could know when the service was operating because they weren't able to operate the official timetable.

Morton alleged all sorts of malpractice including DB adding extra buses (and I suspect he certainly had a point during the morning peak in Lucan), but I don't recall anyone in Celbridge reporting DB flooding the 67 or 67X with extra unscheduled departures. It was more of a smokescreen for the failure of the expanded service.

The reality is they expanded a successful peak service into something that for a variety of reasons was a mistake, which was a shame as they had an excellent product.

punisher5112

Carawaystick wrote: »

The bus is expensive because the subvention is low

Public transit is a public good. Look at the costs of congestion, they would be reduced if there was better public transit

Its not as expensive as made out to be.

Leap offers huge savings and eben before that there were tax saver, rambler and travel 90 for years and the travel90 actually was I have to say better value then th e €1 discount on each additional journey inside correct time fram e but still there are good deals.

Even for one that only uses occasionally having a €7 cap no matter how many or how long a journey is very good value. As I said rambler gives even more value and then student and child up to 19.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Misquote often? I said already that a direct 66/67 (bypassing Chapelizod) works for me. This what this whole conversation is about. And just to show how ridiculous it is that they run that route and I have no self interest, I'd be content if they ran they bypass and the 66a/b didn't.

You keep moving the goalposts - that's the problem here.

One minute you say that both the 66a and 66x are too slow and that you consequently don't bother with the bus and always use the train at peak times.

Then you start going on about the 66x from UCD, which is a completely different subject.

Now you're saying a 66 via the by-pass would be sufficient which presumably means that you'd be travelling at off-peak times or against peak traffic flow, and at a time when the time differential between the two options is five minutes (based on your earlier comment that you use the train).

And to back up this, I've attached the AVLC timetables for both the 25a and 66a.

Take the 20:32 25a from Merrion Square on the first page - it's scheduled to take 30 minutes to get to Liffey Valley stop 2213.

The 20:30 66a is scheduled to take 34 minutes to make the same trip (4 minute difference).

Similarly taking an inbound journey during evening peak - a time you've highlighted before:
The 16:55 25a is due to pass pass Liffey Valley stop 2239 at 17:18 and get to Bachelors Walk for 17:38 (20 minutes)

The 17:00 66a is due to pass Liffey Valley at 17:18 and get to Bachelors Walk for 17:43 (25 minutes).

That's two examples where the differential is 5 minutes or less but that's representative of off-peak journey times for most of the day. That's why I just find this constant argument about those routes slightly baffling.

Running limited stop/express services at peak times is fairly common all over the world - hence I think the 66x and 67x need to be expanded. And more Xpresso services added all over the city to facilitate longer distance commuters.

Spanish Eyes

So once again. Is there any merit to having the Xs outbound to have the first stop (past Heuston) West of Lucan?

Minimum fare is gone now don't forget.

That should be one of the priorities of a fast corridor to Celbridge, Leixlip and Maynooth.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So once again. Is there any merit to having the Xs outbound to have the first stop (past Heuston) West of Lucan?

Minimum fare is gone now don't forget.

That should be one of the priorities of a fast corridor to Celbridge, Leixlip and Maynooth.

There is certainly an argument for the first stop on the 66x & 67x not being until the Newcastle Road I would suggest.