BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

MJohnston

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

They will have significantly reduced frequency at the weekend.

I'm not sure I'd call it significantly reduced - 25a on Saturday is currently at 30 minute frequency all day, 25b the same. C1 and C2 will maintain that frequency between 9am and 7pm, and 40 minute frequency outside of that.

Sunday certainly receives a bit of a downgrade with 40 minute frequencies for most of the day instead of 30 minutes. On the flipside it seems to start running an hour earlier, and finish a bit later.

I suspect these reductions are based on actual data of usage patterns, but a slight decrease in weekend frequences is surely outweighed by the positives of a massive increase in weekday frequencies? I mean there will be a 5 minute frequency during the peak hours of 7-9am and 3-6pm, which is hugely increased over the current 15 minute frequency at those times.

n!ghtmancometh

Idbatterim wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Yeah they are both out. Looks like I’m moving from here, the joke that passes for public transport being the main reason. An hour ! an hour ! on the last bus home last night! To f*cking rathcoole. You fly out to the red cow in a matter of minutes. Then the tour of west Dublin starts, it’s a joke! It taken me five minutes at the speed limit in a car, to get from rathcoole to red cow. Public transport out here is unbearable... does bus connects plan to do anything about the massively over the top number of stops also?

69x takes about 40 mins and avoids the villages and estates, straight up N7 through Newlands Cross. It's being cut in the new bus connects plan. Full bus morning and evening, but sure what do us passengers know. We can get a bus to the Luas instead. I wonder where all the new space for former bus passengers is going to appear on the at capacity peak time trams now. Ah I'm sure some high paid consultant has thought of that!

Stephen15

jd wrote: »

Not familiar with the areas, but do any of the peak only routes address this?
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1248/map3-peakonly.pdf

Route 322 will run between Lucan and the Docklands with two trips in the morning and evening peak.

dashcamdanny

Zebra3 wrote: »

They are not buying up everyone's front garden. :rolleyes:

Sorry to piss on your Busconnects parade but I can think of a few places where they are going to have to. Whole streets at a time :rolleyes:

Places where you car barley fit one car.

Folks are not going to give that up without a fight, and if they do, where do you think they are going to park.

In the cycle lane of coarse

Crumlin road for a start.
https://goo.gl/maps/oVXwAyoo7xT2

MJohnston

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Sorry to piss on your Busconnects parade but I can think of a few places where they are going to have to. Whole streets at a time :rolleyes:

Places where you car barley fit one car.

Folks are not going to give that up without a fight, and if they do, where do you think they are going to park.

In the cycle lane of coarse

Crumlin road for a start.
https://goo.gl/maps/oVXwAyoo7xT2

Which is far, far from "everybody's garden and driveway" as you originally claimed.

dashcamdanny

MJohnston wrote: »

Which is far, far from "everybody's garden and driveway" as you originally claimed.

Common sense would enable anyone reading that to realize I did not mean every garden in Dublin. Only the gardens effected.

It seems one needs to clearer around here.

MJohnston

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Common sense would enable anyone reading that to realize I did not mean every garden in Dublin. Only the gardens effected.

It seems one needs to clearer around here.

Yes, and we can all be clearer by avoiding silly hyperbole like:


"When they buy up eveyones front garden and driveway"

dashcamdanny

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, and we can all be clearer by avoiding silly hyperbole like:


"When they buy up eveyones front garden and driveway"

Sorry if I confused you.

MJohnston

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Sorry if I confused you.

It's not about confusion, it's about having a productive conversation, which is hard to do when one person is doing the textual equivalent of yelling till they're red-faced. It gets us nowhere.

dashcamdanny

Ok. Back to the original point.

How are these people effected going to be accommodated? The NTA cant just swoop in and say a person may no longer keep a car on their property .


Or can they?

MJohnston

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Ok. Back to the original point.

How are these people effected going to be accommodated? The NTA cant just swoop in and say a person may no longer keep a car on their property .


Or can they?

Yes, they can, that's the point of a CPO. They will be given compensation for the lost property, and potentially additional compensation to account for the fact that they no longer have somewhere to park their cars. This is all pretty standard CPO stuff, that's been used on lots of different projects over the years.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

r93kaey5p2izun

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call it significantly reduced - 25a on Saturday is currently at 30 minute frequency all day, 25b the same. C1 and C2 will maintain that frequency between 9am and 7pm, and 40 minute frequency outside of that.

Sunday certainly receives a bit of a downgrade with 40 minute frequencies for most of the day instead of 30 minutes. On the flipside it seems to start running an hour earlier, and finish a bit later.

I suspect these reductions are based on actual data of usage patterns, but a slight decrease in weekend frequences is surely outweighed by the positives of a massive increase in weekday frequencies? I mean there will be a 5 minute frequency during the peak hours of 7-9am and 3-6pm, which is hugely increased over the current 15 minute frequency at those times.

No I do not think the improved frequency on weekday peaks in any way outweighs the weekend decrease. The buses are packed Sat and Sun so every 40 minutes and indeed every 60 minutes for much of Sunday is completely unacceptable. It's a deal breaker for me. Surely you can accept this entirely valid criticism of the plan instead of falling over yourself to deny or minimise it. It's a big negative for the area which is growing constanty as Adamstown continues to develop.

jd wrote: »

Not familiar with the areas, but do any of the peak only routes address this?
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1248/map3-peakonly.pdf

Not really no. None are as direct as the 25d.

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

No I do not think the improved frequency on weekday peaks in any way outweighs the weekend decrease. The buses are packed Sat and Sun so every 40 minutes and indeed every 60 minutes for much of Sunday is completely unacceptable. It's a deal breaker for me. Surely you can accept this entirely valid criticism of the plan instead of falling over yourself to deny or minimise it. It's a big negative for the area which is growing constanty as Adamstown continues to develop.

There will be a frequency of every 10 mins along the on the C Spine Saturdays and Sundays between Lucan and Ringsend. Everywhere else Adamstown, Esker, Celbridge and Maynooth will have an equal frequency.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

There will be a frequency of every 10 mins along the on the C Spine Saturdays and Sundays between Lucan and Ringsend. Everywhere else Adamstown, Esker, Celbridge and Maynooth will have an equal frequency.

Reduced frequency from what they currently have for some of Saturday and all of Sunday. That's that. It doesn't require lots of arguing or trying to spin it as an improvement. There are some positives in the plan for the area. There are also negatives. Lucan has a population of 50000 and growing with Adamstown rapidly expanding and also Clonburris on the horizon as well as lots of other local developments dotted around. The C1/2 are the buses serving the bulk of this housing which comes well after the end of the spine. Any proposed reduction in service at any time of day is unacceptable in that context. The service is creaking as it is. I find the need to spin an unequivocal deterioration in weekend service as positive weird tbh. The C spine frequency is not relevant for those who live 45 minutes walk away from it.

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Reduced frequency from what they currently have for some of Saturday and all of Sunday. That's that. It doesn't require lots of arguing or trying to spin it as an improvement. There are some positives in the plan for the area. There are also negatives. Lucan has a population of 50000 and growing with Adamstown rapidly expanding and also Clonburris on the horizon as well as lots of other local developments dotted around. Any proposed reduction in service at any time of day is unacceptable in that context. The service is creaking as it is. I find the need to spin an unequivocal deterioration in weekend service as positive weird tbh.

You mention that the service is creaking and buses are often cancelled and don't run but perhaps it's better having a slightly reduced frequency to prevent buses from not showing up.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

You mention that the service is creaking and buses are often cancelled and don't run but perhaps it's better having a slightly reduced frequency to prevent buses from not showing up.

If that's the suggestion to provide a world class bus service - reduce already low frequency to a massive centre of population growth to cover up operational deficiencies - then we may just give up altogether.

Look, I want the bus service transformed for the better. I like the whole philosophy of the plan. I can see lots of great things in the proposals if they are implemented properly. But surely something as clearly negative as decreased weekend frequency to a massive suburb can be discussed and questioned without needing to get defensive as if the whole plan is under attack!

MJohnston

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call it significantly reduced - 25a on Saturday is currently at 30 minute frequency all day, 25b the same. C1 and C2 will maintain that frequency between 9am and 7pm, and 40 minute frequency outside of that.

Sunday certainly receives a bit of a downgrade with 40 minute frequencies for most of the day instead of 30 minutes. On the flipside it seems to start running an hour earlier, and finish a bit later.

I suspect these reductions are based on actual data of usage patterns, but a slight decrease in weekend frequences is surely outweighed by the positives of a massive increase in weekday frequencies? I mean there will be a 5 minute frequency during the peak hours of 7-9am and 3-6pm, which is hugely increased over the current 15 minute frequency at those times.

No I do not think the improved frequency on weekday peaks in any way outweighs the weekend decrease. The buses are packed Sat and Sun so every 40 minutes and indeed every 60 minutes for much of Sunday is completely unacceptable. It's a deal breaker for me. Surely you can accept this entirely valid criticism of the plan instead of falling over yourself to deny or minimise it. It's a big negative for the area which is growing constanty as Adamstown continues to develop.

jd wrote: »

Not familiar with the areas, but do any of the peak only routes address this?
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1248/map3-peakonly.pdf

Not really no. None are as direct as the 25d.

I'm definitely not falling over myself to minimise it, which is why my post was asking a question rather than making a statement. If you say that the weekend buses are usually packed then I accept that.

Though I will say again that it's actually a matching 30 minute frequency for most of Saturday and a slightly reduced 40 minute frequency for most of Sunday. The 60 minute frequency on Sunday is early morning/late evening only by the looks of it (same with the 40 minute "off peak" frequency on Saturday).

r93kaey5p2izun

Any decrease in frequency from an already poor every 30 minutes is unacceptable. There is no "slight" or "only" about it. End of story.

TheValeyard

This hub for the blanch centre is crazy unless they've dedicated lanes. Traffic there is crazy at the best of times.

Stephen15

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

This hub for the blanch centre is crazy unless they've dedicated lanes. Traffic there is crazy at the best of times.

That's the plan I believe or Jarett and the NTA seemed to suggest. Infrastructure will be looked at after the public consultation.

MJohnston

I think it's more accurate to say they've already formed the infrastructure plan, but they won't present it for consultation until after the network redesign consultation has happened.

KD345

Stephen15 wrote: »

There will be a frequency of every 10 mins along the on the C Spine Saturdays and Sundays between Lucan and Ringsend. Everywhere else Adamstown, Esker, Celbridge and Maynooth will have an equal frequency.

You missed Chapelizod in your summary. Chapelizod will go from having 140 buses to the city centre on Saturday to just 32. On Sunday, there will be a reduction from 65 buses per day to 29. This is far from an equal frequency.

Perhaps the NTA believe this is a sufficient level of service, but for a Chapelizod resident it is a big drop in frequency. I would prefer if this report referenced and explained the reduction in buses through many areas.

Qrt

KD345 wrote: »

You missed Chapelizod in your summary. Chapelizod will go from having 140 buses to the city centre on Saturday to just 32. On Sunday, there will be a reduction from 65 buses per day to 29. This is far from an equal frequency.

Perhaps the NTA believe this is a sufficient level of service, but for a Chapelizod resident it is a big drop in frequency. I would prefer if this report referenced and explained the reduction in buses through many areas.

I don't mean to be smart, but does anyone actually live in Chapelizod? It must be one of the most unheard of places in the city.

dfx-

KD345 wrote: »

You missed Chapelizod in your summary. Chapelizod will go from having 140 buses to the city centre on Saturday to just 32. On Sunday, there will be a reduction from 65 buses per day to 29. This is far from an equal frequency.

:eek: That's a crazy drop.

The 25, 26, 66, 67 are busy there. Would love to know "the data" to justify that or the number of times Walker has been in Chapelizod on them.

KD345

Qrt wrote: »

I don't mean to be smart, but does anyone actually live in Chapelizod? It must be one of the most unheard of places in the city.

It has a population of about 3,000, so maybe not that big, but this is the service they currently have and have become used to. I can't imagine they will be happy with these changes.

My point was more aimed at the fact that not everyone will see an increase in service. Some areas, such as Chapelizod, will have less buses passing through.

It is similar with the 11 (which will now be route 10). It will drop from a 15 minute peak frequency to 30 minute. The 11 service is already bursting towards Sandyford each morning, so I don't know how it will cope with a 50% reduction in service and capacity. The daytime frequency of 20 minutes will drop to 30 minutes. There is no alternative bus route through the likes of Goatstown. I don't think this is acceptable.

KD345

dfx- wrote: »

:eek: That's a crazy drop.

The 25, 26, 66, 67 are busy there. Would love to know "the data" to justify that or the number of times Walker has been in Chapelizod on them.

It's the same Monday to Friday. The baffling thing is that the NTA only recently approved an increase in service to Chapelizod to meet demand.

Currently in morning peak, there are 18 buses passing through the village between 7.30 and 9am. Under these new plans there will now be just 6.

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

You missed Chapelizod in your summary. Chapelizod will go from having 140 buses to the city centre on Saturday to just 32. On Sunday, there will be a reduction from 65 buses per day to 29. This is far from an equal frequency.

Perhaps the NTA believe this is a sufficient level of service, but for a Chapelizod resident it is a big drop in frequency. I would prefer if this report referenced and explained the reduction in buses through many areas.

But there will be an increased spending on infrastructure which will be known after the consultation on the routes and what will have to be done to address these issues.

What will likely have to be done is investment to be made on the provision of pedestrian access and bus on the Chapelizod Bypass. Jarrett has said it himself that you can't run buses for long distances without stops hence why M50 bus routes were not on the cards.

Remember bus connects is about much more than just the routes. The big money will be spent on infrastructure such as bus priority measures, improved roads, footpaths and bus stops

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

It is similar with the 11 (which will now be route 10). It will drop from a 15 minute peak frequency to 30 minute. The 11 service is already bursting towards Sandyford each morning, so I don't know how it will cope with a 50% reduction in service and capacity. The daytime frequency of 20 minutes will drop to 30 minutes. There is no alternative bus route through the likes of Goatstown. I don't think this is acceptable.

Sandyford will get the S8 orbital route from DL to Tallaght every 20 mins and every 15 mins during the peak it will be more useful than the 11. Goatstown will get the S6/S7 which will run every 15 mins throughout the day which will run from Blackrock to Tallaght and the 225 local route which will run every 15 mins between DL and Dundrum.

Also the 11 only runs every 30 mins off peak atm not every 20 mins as more people use the locals and orbitals less people will use routes like the 11. Tbh a place like Sandyford needs more orbital buses rather than radial routes which are slower and less frequent than the Luas.

The bus connects proposals are far more useful for Sandyford than what's currently there the infrequent 47 and 114, the 11 which will be more or less still be there and a few peak time 75s.

Dyr

Stephen15 wrote: »

Remember bus connects is about much more than just the routes. The big money will be spent on infrastructure such as bus priority measures, improved roads, footpaths* and bus stops

*Reducing footpaths

The current bus priority measures are not in any enforced, why would we give them more if they cant manage what they have?