BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

Perhaps you’re missing my point, or maybe unfamiliar with the area, but the 15 is the only route through Knocklyon to the city centre. The only change to this is that the 15 will now be called the A1 and will run at a reduced frequency. It will also be required to carry additional city bound Firhouse passengers from existing route 49 who will change from new routes S6 and S7.

We can agree to disagree on whether there is sufficient capacity to cater for all this. I don’t believe there is, but accept you feel differently. Hopefully the consultations will help to address any concerns or provide extra buses to resolve issues.

Firhouse commuters could also change in the Square to the Luas or the A1 route. Also they could use the new 16 radial route to College Green which is every 20 mins.

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this research of the area?

You've made an overly simplistic point which seems to suggest that you judge the demand for an area based on how busy are the buses are going said area. But this does not measure demand for these areas because it doesn't take into account how many people on said buses are boarding or alighting at said areas.

To use an example of how useless this measure of demand is:
- I run a 100 passenger bus every 10 mins
- It operates between Town A and Town H calling at B, C, D, E, F, G.
- On average 35 People board at Town A, 20 at Town B, 20 at Town C
- On average 3 board at Town D at which the vast majority of people alight.
- The bus then only carries single figures between E and H

If we are using your theory, it would suggest that you think that because the bus is busy at A and B and the bus goes to G, then it means that people going to E. F, G deserve a service at the same level as A to D because there bus is busy, even if barely anyone is actually going to E, F and G.

A proper way of judging public transport demand and planning services is who wants to go from one place to another, not judging how many people are on buses that serve the bus stops on the route which barely anybody may alight or board at. This is supply and demand basics.

If everyone judged demand on the same basis of yourself, nobody would ever run non stop buses between Dublin and Cork and Dublin and Galway, because they'd say that the buses are full going through the little towns on the way so that must mean there is lot of demand, whilst ignoring the fact that 90% of the passengers are going from Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Galway and only 10% are coming from the towns.

n!ghtmancometh

The current 15 is full when it reaches Firhouse and remains full until nearing the city centre. Busconnects will change the number of the 15 and reduce it's frequency, whilst also loading in passengers who used to take route 49 into the city centre. You can obfuscate it with your Walker-esque spin all you like, but it's a massive reduction in service, and will be a disaster if the frequency of the new busconnects version of the 15 isn't drastically increased.

KD345

Stephen15 wrote: »

Firhouse commuters could also change in the Square to the Luas or the A1 route. Also they could use the new 16 radial route to College Green which is every 20 mins.

They could, however I don’t know of any extra capacity being added to the Red Line Luas, which is also expected to take bus loads of people from existing routes 13, 68 and 69. I also don’t think traveling from Firhouse to Tallaght to go to the city centre is an attractive option for many.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

You've made an overly simplistic point which seems to suggest that you judge the demand for an area based on how busy are the buses are going to said area. But this does not measure demand for these areas because it doesn't take into account how many people on said buses are boarding or alighting at said areas.

A 15 fills up in Ballycullen Road and Knocklyon. It is full by Firhouse Road and then picks up and drops off passengers throughout Templeogue, Terenure, Rathmines and the city centre.

The demand here is pretty clear.

devnull wrote: »

To use an example of how useless this measure of demand is:
- I run a 100 passenger bus every 10 mins
- It operates between Town A and Town H calling at B, C, D, E, F, G.
- On average 35 People board at Town A, 20 at Town B, 20 at Town C
- On average 3 board at Town D at which the vast majority of people alight.
- The bus then only carries single figures between E and G.

If we are using your theory, it would suggest that you think that because the bus is busy at A and B and the bus goes to G, then it means that people going to E. F, G deserve a service at the same level as A to D because there bus is busy, even if barely anyone is actually going to E, F and G.

Under the Bus Connects plan, there won’t be enough space to carry passengers from “points A and B”, never mind having capacity further along the route. I actually haven’t mentioned the A spine beyond Templogue. We know the A spine increases in capacity from Terenure. My concern is solely with the capacity between Ballycullen Road and Templeogue.

devnull wrote: »

A bus running from Ballycullen to the City Center being very busy is completely meaningless, because proper planning of capacity involves researching how many people are making journeys from one place to another, not how many people are using a bus overall.

Can you provide a link to this research?

At present, Route 15 has capacity for approx 2,100 passengers between 6-9am. Under Bus Connects this will drop to approx 1,500.

What research are you saying is showing that there will be demand for 600 less passengers using the 15 each morning out of Ballycullen/Knocklyon?

Really, the simplest thing to do here is to increase the frequency of the A1 to match the current service of the 15.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm not a civil engineer but I guess they build footpaths through the wooded area surrounding the bypass. Around the bridges on the Chapelizod Bypass you build access footpaths and steps. Another thing that would probably have to be built is pedestrian footbridge for ease of access to either side of the road from the bus stops. Steps may be required so wheelchair lifts may also be needed.

Anyway something will have to be done a city bus service cannot run for such a long distance without stopping if these proposals are to be implemented regarding the Chapelizod Bypass

Here is a few possible places where you could built access for stops

https://goo.gl/maps/H2EjAnx6bGk

https://goo.gl/maps/ccVMU2rgruR2

https://goo.gl/maps/sXZCQnoWV9k

https://goo.gl/maps/KCCBo6zMyRR2



As I said they will now have the S6/S7 every 15 mins aswell as the 225 every 15 mins all of which can get them to Dundrum so they can catch a Luas or hopefully in the future a Metro into town. The 10 will also have the same frequency off peak as the 11 does now however I do agree it should be more frequent at peak times.



Agreed but some changes will have to be made which benefit the many and not the few.

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the road planners who thought it would a good idea not to put any provision for bus stops or pedestrian access on the Chapelizod Bypass.

Why are we putting bus stops on the 80kmh Chapelizod bypass?

have you ever walked up Kylemore Hill or Chapelizod Hill Road?

To call your suggestions nonsense is doing a disservice to nonsense.

---

Regarding the reduction of services to Chapelizod; it is LONG overdue. The 66 and 67 routes are hamstrung by having to go through the village. As a 25A/B user Network Direct was a godsend as it avoided that bottleneck.

All that ever need to happen was to expand the frequency of the 26 ever so slightly from Cherry Orchard Hospital and that was that and send it down through the village via Palmerstown.

Stephen15

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why are we putting bus stops on the 80kmh Chapelizod bypass?

have you ever walked up Kylemore Hill or Chapelizod Hill Road?

To call your suggestions nonsense is doing a disservice to nonsense.

There are already bus stops on the N4 which is 80km and bus stops on the 80km section of the N11 South of Foxrock Church so I don't see what's wrong with putting bus stops on the Chapelizod Bypass as long as there was footbridges or underpasses.

What's wrong Chapelizod Hill Road or Kylemore Hill?

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

So essentially there is high frequency where there is the most demand and passenger numbers, and lower frequency when there is less demand and passenger numbers?

So far this thread has identified Woodford (13), the 15, 25A and 25B and 11 and an area ably covered by the 66 and 67 with a massive drop in frequency at one point or another.

We're not talking about orbital routes or low demand areas which are covered better now than they will be.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Regarding the reduction of services to Chapelizod; it is LONG overdue. The 66 and 67 routes are hamstrung by having to go through the village. As a 25A/B user Network Direct was a godsend as it avoided that bottleneck.

All that ever need to happen was to expand the frequency of the 26 ever so slightly from Cherry Orchard Hospital and that was that and send it down through the village via Palmerstown.

We're talking of (from KD345) a scale of 100 buses reduction here, that's not reduction, that's decimation.

The 26 is fitted in the 66/67s I think, it might be awkward to increase it. Maybe the 25 is a better candidate.

Goldengirl

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Goldengirl

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Goldengirl

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Cookie_Monster

Goldengirl wrote: »

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An equally condescending comment tbh, I've found older people adapt surprisingly well to the internet & computer technology, far better than than the younger generation who are only used to smartphones and apps rather than proper computers.

Goldengirl wrote: »

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what old orbital routes? There were barely any.

The problem in this city is that very large housing estates were not planned to provide easy uncomplicated access to main roads and bus routes, with the result that if buses do not go into these complicated housing estate systems a lot of people are effectively being cut off from public transport and will have to revert to driving cars or be stranded in their estates. A shuttle service in and out of these areas should be set up

Name me some estates that require a car journey to get out of?

It would be great if while implementing these necessary changes to make things more "efficient" , elderly and disabled people's needs are also addressed.

You'd swear old people in Ireland are some special subsection of society who are completely incapable of doing anything by themselves they way you go on. Improved routes and increased frequencies (especially off peak) benefit the elderly just as much as everyone else, perhaps more so. All but the tiniest percentage can manage to travel to and from the nearest bustops, there is no point planning the entire bus system around the minuscule amount that might need a bustop 10 feet from their front door. Yes it would be nice but we don't have an infinite number of buses or funding and what we have has to be best used to deliver the best service for the majority of people.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that.

Goldengirl

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Cookie_Monster

Goldengirl wrote: »

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where to where and why would the 13+ change not do for example? more frequent than the 104 for a start...
not like the 104 even goes onto ballymun rd going that direction...

I would appreciate if you would not take my comments out of context again.

what context?, just ill-informed ranting.

How very nice of you! This is a public service we are talking about, paid for by the taxes of those "few" as you describe them,

what few?, most people pay taxes, not a few...

Where's the inclusivity in this plan?

more people than before have more access to more frequent routes, a small minority will end up with a worse service, how is that not increasing inclusivity? Stop just focusing on the tiny negatives, what about all the people gaining better routes, are they not important too?

What I said, if you can read ,is that the pdf maps regarding the 90 page submission by Mr.Walker et al were by and large impossible for many normal sighted individuals to read, despite magnification.

Might want to get your eyes checked then, they're not difficult to read with "normal" vision.

What we have...who are you that you can say how much money should be spent here or there? Maybe "we" should cut a few NTA jobs to raise the money?

Or add 5% to income tax, or cut funding to hospitals or something else... Fact is there is a limited budget and this proposal does its best to maximise resource use in the most efficient manner within that budget. If you have common sense ways and means to increase the budget somehow by all means share them with us, you cannot simply pour an endless supply of funding into NTA operations to give every single person a bus to everywhere they want to go.

_Kaiser_

The more I read of this, the more half-assed it sounds.

You have a plan with a few core routes that seem to be a good idea and improvement, but the rest involve transfers, more walking for passengers, or generally a more inconvenient experience than they have now.

It'll never happen. Not without so many changes and concessions that it'll be a mess again. People won't accept an inferior service FOR THEM. It makes no odds how it benefits others on the route 15km away. That's human nature and particularly in Ireland where all politics (and this is as much a political issue as a transport one) is ridiculously parochial. It seems to me that it's these local objections that will break it as it shouldn't have been released unless these concerns had been already addressed or a decision made to press on as has been outlined.

But by the time its all done, I fear this will be yet another expensive waste of time and money that at best might give us a few orbital routes, but that's about it.

LeinsterDub

Goldengirl wrote: »

There speaks someone who never had an injury or an ailment! Public transport is for everyone and one of the most positive aspects of some of our more rambling bus routes is that they encourage people to get out and about even when they cannot walk very far.
It would be great if while implementing these necessary changes to make things more "efficient" , elderly and disabled people's needs are also addressed.

These elderly and disabled people seem to get on just fine in the main when they get to town

Podge_irl

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It seems to me that it's these local objections that will break it as it shouldn't have been released unless these concerns had been already addressed or a decision made to press on as has been outlined.

Similar was said about the proposed Metrolink route.

Some people have an utterly bizarre notion of what a public consultation is for.

Podge_irl

Goldengirl wrote: »

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If they can't walk out of their estate where are they going on the bus that they'll be able to do anything on the other end?

If they require literal point-to-point transport than public transport isn't for them.

Bray Head

People want to keep the network structured around bus users with limited mobility and lots of time.


These people may be better served by a dial-a-bus service. I think there is a case for these even in urban areas.

Most Dublin Bus users are mobile and want to get where they are going asap. Bus Connects seems to be - finally - prioritising the needs of the many, not the few.

OldMrBrennan83

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Qrt

Bray Head wrote: »

People want to keep the network structured around bus users with limited mobility and lots of time.


These people may be better served by a dial-a-bus service. I think there is a case for these even in urban areas.

Most Dublin Bus users are mobile and want to get where they are going asap. Bus Connects seems to be - finally - prioritising the needs of the many, not the few.

There really loads of TFL videos about their Dial-a-ride service. I know it's a colossal city, but it really does look superb.

MJohnston

Goldengirl wrote: »

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I'm afraid I just don't buy into the sentiment you're expressing here. For decades we've formed the bus network almost solely around the needs of the elderly (not so much the disabled, they aren't as politically important to governments in terms of voting power).

We have a bus network now that is extremely biased towards providing a service for elderly people, at the expense of an efficient and rapid system. As you said yourself, it currently takes rambling, "scenic' routes in an effort to cover every street in each housing estate in the city.

BusConnects certainly does chip away at that in an effort to improve efficiency and quality, but isn't it time that we had a bit of compromise in this regard? We've spent so long hobbling Dublin Bus to make it an ultra-local service, and now that someone is trying to roll that back just a little bit and make it a service that is more efficient and capable of surviving the next decade, it's suddenly that the elderly and disabled are being completely neglected?

That's disingenuous, and doesn't take into account the current system whatsoever.

Dublin's bus network needs change if it is to not completely collapse in the next few years, it cannot survive in its current form. That is inarguable.

As to your point about shuttle and feeder buses? Yes, absolutely. I don't think this will or should be something run by Dublin Bus (or the post-BusConnects equivalent thereof) but I could certainly see it being a separate PSO thing that gets tendered out.

MJohnston

Patww79 wrote: »

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It's not how everyone thinks. Some of us take a more utilitarian view of things.

OldMrBrennan83

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MJohnston

Patww79 wrote: »

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Nobody has been forgotten by this plan, stop being irrational.

BonnieSituation

Qrt wrote: »

There really loads of TFL videos about their Dial-a-ride service. I know it's a colossal city, but it really does look superb.

OC Transpo in Ottawa have a dial a ride service. As does Amsterdam and Copenhagen iirc. All fairly comparable to Dublin.

Bray Head

One of the consequences of Bus Connects is that it will make the financial performance of routes much more distinct. Spine routes are likely to be profitbale, and orbital and other routes unprofitable. 

I don't think this is something that Jarrett Walker intends for, or really cares about.

But it makes it much easier to carve off certain routes for private operators. Remember, Dublin Bus currently argues that the whole network has a PSO function, and that you cannot look at certain routes in isolation. Indeed, you could argue that this is the purpose of certain routes with heavy usage for 80% of the route and then a meandering tour through housing estates at the end.


This is probably behind a lot of the objection to Bus Connects so far.

Stephen15

goldengirl wrote:

Even less now! I am talking about feeder services through the estates, if you hadn't edited it out.

You do realise that almost every road including estates that have a bus service right now will still have a local bus service after the plan in most cases they will no longer go into the city centre like they do presently.

I don't understand the obsession with every area including estates having to have a direct bus service to the city centre when most elderly people don't even go into town but rather they make local trips to shop etc.

sharper

Bray Head wrote: »

One of the consequences of Bus Connects is that it will make the financial performance of routes much more distinct. Spine routes are likely to be profitbale, and orbital and other routes unprofitable. 

Private operators don't get the proceeds from the farebox if they operate a route. They're paid a fee to operate it and the fares go to the NTA. They neither know nor care if it's ulitmately profitable or loss making.

The LUAS is run by Transdev and they're paid by the NTA to run it. If nobody steps onto a LUAS for the next year Transdev's revenue will be entirely unaffected. The same is true for go ahead and the orbital routes.