BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

MJohnston

howiya wrote: »

Well in the case of the 14 there isn't a remarkable jump in frequency. I've a 15 minute frequency now. It'll be 10-15 under the new plan.

As someone living on the north extension of the Green Line, don't rule out the difference between 10 and 15 minute frequencies. It seems minor, but in practice it's far less frustrating with 10 minute frequencies.

cgcsb

devnull wrote: »

Personally the service, ease of use of said service and customer experience is much more important to me than the ideology as I believe a public transport service should be run for the benefit of the public, first and foremost.

Indeed and if the NTA contracts that out to Dublin Bus 100% of the time or opens the contract for that competition up, which do you think would serve the public better. At present many public services (I'm looking at IÉ) are run for the good of the staff and their unions as opposed to the public.

Qrt

MJohnston wrote: »

As someone living on the north extension of the Green Line, don't rule out the difference between 10 and 15 minute frequencies. It seems minor, but in practice it's far less frustrating with 10 minute frequencies.

Will they be increasing broombridge services anytime soon? I always thought the wait time was a bit ridiculous

KD345

howiya wrote: »

Well in the case of the 14 there isn't a remarkable jump in frequency. I've a 15 minute frequency now. It'll be 10-15 under the new plan.

On the south side it’s the opposite. The 14 is being reduced in frequency from every 15/20 mins daytime to every 30. Another example of a decrease in frequency and capacity.

Stephen15

KD345 wrote: »

On the south side it’s the opposite. The 14 is being reduced in frequency from every 15/20 mins daytime to every 30. Another example of a decrease in frequency and capacity.

The A spine will probably take many off the 14

howiya

MJohnston wrote: »

As someone living on the north extension of the Green Line, don't rule out the difference between 10 and 15 minute frequencies. It seems minor, but in practice it's far less frustrating with 10 minute frequencies.

Well it is a minor improvement in that the 10 minute frequency only operates two hours of the day. 12 minutes three other hours of the day and 15 the rest of day.

I take your point though. The other week I just missed the 15:15 and neither the 15:30 or 15:45 operated. The 16:00 was late. At least at a 12 minute frequency I might have been on a bus before 16:00

r93kaey5p2izun

Some of the comments here about mobility are quite strange to the point of ridiculousness. I have made no comments here about loss of services from estates or increased walking distances, and I'm not in favour of causing massive inconvenience to the majority of commuters for the sake of those with mobility issues, just to be clear. But the comments here from those attacking those making these arguments honestly read like something written by a facetious teenager.

I work full time and rely 100% on the bus. Unfortunately I cannot walk more than 3 minutes at a slow pace, which doesn't get me very far. I still manage to do my job, shop, and go out for the day all on public transport. It's simply nonsense to imply that those who will be unable to walk 500m to a bus stop are some sort of shut ins who need a taxi or ambulance, as some of the frankly outlandish hyperbolic crap posted here suggests. I understand the need to redesign the bus service and prioritise the needs of the majority and I won't be lobbying for maintaining door to door local routes at the expense of an overall improvements. But it doesn't mean the childish rubbish posted here is acceptable or valid. It just shows how ignorant so many can be - whether it's true ignorance or just deliberately dismissive keyboard warriors isn't clear.

r93kaey5p2izun

MJohnston wrote: »

As someone living on the north extension of the Green Line, don't rule out the difference between 10 and 15 minute frequencies. It seems minor, but in practice it's far less frustrating with 10 minute frequencies.

You were quick enough to dismiss a change from every 30 minutes to every 40 minutes as fairly minor yourself!

MJohnston

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Some of the comments here about mobility are quite strange to the point of ridiculousness. I have made no comments here about loss of services from estates or increased walking distances, and I'm not in favour of causing massive inconvenience to the majority of commuters for the sake of those with mobility issues, just to be clear. But the comments here from those attacking those making these arguments honestly read like something written by a facetious teenager.

I work full time and rely 100% on the bus. Unfortunately I cannot walk more than 3 minutes at a slow pace, which doesn't get me very far. I still manage to do my job, shop, and go out for the day all on public transport. It's simply nonsense to imply that those who will be unable to walk 500m to a bus stop are some sort of shut ins who need a taxi or ambulance, as some of the frankly outlandish hyperbolic crap posted here suggests. I understand the need to redesign the bus service and prioritise the needs of the majority and I won't be lobbying for maintaining door to door local routes at the expense of an overall improvements. But it doesn't mean the childish rubbish posted here is acceptable or valid. It just shows how ignorant so many can be - whether it's true ignorance or just deliberately dismissive keyboard warriors isn't clear.

I agree - it's perfectly easy to make the argument that ultra-local services should not be maintained without resorting to arguing about the abilities of any particular group of people.

MJohnston

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

You were quick enough to dismiss a change from every 30 minutes to every 40 minutes as fairly minor yourself!

I think context matters - a difference of 10 minutes from 30 to 40 at off-peak weekend hours is less impactful than a difference of 5 minutes from 15 to 10 at peak weekday hours, imo anyway.

KD345

Stephen15 wrote: »

The A spine will probably take many off the 14

The A spine is quite a walk for passengers on Barton Road, Churchtown and Breamor Road. Their frequency is being reduced. The new 14 route should be at least matching the existing frequency.

LeinsterDub

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Some of the comments here about mobility are quite strange to the point of ridiculousness. I have made no comments here about loss of services from estates or increased walking distances, and I'm not in favour of causing massive inconvenience to the majority of commuters for the sake of those with mobility issues, just to be clear. But the comments here from those attacking those making these arguments honestly read like something written by a facetious teenager.

I work full time and rely 100% on the bus. Unfortunately I cannot walk more than 3 minutes at a slow pace, which doesn't get me very far. I still manage to do my job, shop, and go out for the day all on public transport. It's simply nonsense to imply that those who will be unable to walk 500m to a bus stop are some sort of shut ins who need a taxi or ambulance, as some of the frankly outlandish hyperbolic crap posted here suggests. I understand the need to redesign the bus service and prioritise the needs of the majority and I won't be lobbying for maintaining door to door local routes at the expense of an overall improvements. But it doesn't mean the childish rubbish posted here is acceptable or valid. It just shows how ignorant so many can be - whether it's true ignorance or just deliberately dismissive keyboard warriors isn't clear.

It seems to be the ones arguing for the ultra local service are the ones implying those who "at those who will be unable to walk 500m to a bus stop are some sort of shut ins who need a taxi or ambulance".

The majority of those who want a border service have in fact pointed to the fact the majority of people with and without mobility issues can reach a bus stop within a reasonable distance and have also asked for a dial-a-bus service to be considered for those who simply can't reach the bus stop.

MJohnston

KD345 wrote: »

On the south side it’s the opposite. The 14 is being reduced in frequency from every 15/20 mins daytime to every 30. Another example of a decrease in frequency and capacity.

It's actually only a reduction from 20/25 to 30. Of course, this argument only works without context.

With context, a whole lot of people in the area served by the 14 will also have very nearby access to the A3 and the A4 into the city (at a 10/15 minute frequency or 6/7.5 frequency where the A3/4 overlap); as well as the S6/7 orbital (10/15 minute frequency) that connects with both the A and E spinal routes (with both having a 5 minute or better frequency) and the high frequency Green Line Luas.

howiya

KD345 wrote: »

On the south side it’s the opposite. The 14 is being reduced in frequency from every 15/20 mins daytime to every 30. Another example of a decrease in frequency and capacity.

Wasn't aware of that but I only go as far south as the IFSC.

r93kaey5p2izun

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems to be the ones arguing for the ultra local service are the ones implying those who "at those who will be unable to walk 500m to a bus stop are some sort of shut ins who need a taxi or ambulance".

The majority of those who want a border service have in fact pointed to the fact the majority of people with and without mobility issues can reach a bus stop within a reasonable distance and have also asked for a dial-a-bus service to be considered for those who simply can't reach the bus stop.

I disagree and don't think it reads like that at all. There are in fact LOTS of us who cannot walk 500m to a bus stop - it is going to be an issue. It's not as unusual or such a minority as suggested by many here. And my point is that despite this we actually do manage to go places and do things, whereas the crap posted here suggests anyone who can't walk 500m must he unable to do anything at the other end of the journey anyway. That's simply nonsense.

Peregrine

howiya wrote: »

Well in the case of the 14 there isn't a remarkable jump in frequency. I've a 15 minute frequency now. It'll be 10-15 under the new plan.

My quickest route into the city centre went from every 10 minutes all day to every 15 minutes a couple of years ago. It was a significant change it reliability and usability. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the difference even a 5 minute improvement in frequency could make.

Podge_irl

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

I disagree and don't think it reads like that at all. There are in fact LOTS of us who cannot walk 500m to a bus stop - it is going to be an issue. It's not as unusual or such a minority as sugested by many here. And my point is that despite this we actually do manage to go places and do things, whereas the crap posted here suggests anyone who can't walk 500m must he unable to do anything at the other end of the journey anyway. That's simply nonsense.

I am perfectly willing to bet that the proportion of people who can't walk 2-300m to a bus stop, but who are currently within that distance of a bus stop whose route takes them to within 2-300m of everywhere they need to go and who will now be unable to take public transport is, in fact, spectacularly tiny. I am also fully aware that they will be discommoded by this plan and that is unfortunate. Hopefully other systems can be put in place for them.

As it is today the vast majority of estates don't have buses running through them. The few that do are an anomaly that should not exist.

r93kaey5p2izun

Podge_irl wrote: »

I am perfectly willing to bet that the proportion of people who can't walk 2-300m to a bus stop, but who are currently within that distance of a bus stop whose route takes them to within 2-300m of everywhere they need to go and who will now be unable to take public transport is, in fact, spectacularly tiny. I am also fully aware that they will be discommoded by this plan and that is unfortunate. Hopefully other systems can be put in place for them.

As it is today the vast majority of estates don't have buses running through them. The few that do are an anomaly that should not exist.

I think you would lose your bet as such people have often planned their life around being in very close proximity to transport.

And as I made clear I am not arguing in favour of keeping every little local route at the expense of overall improvement. But I will highlight that the notion of those who can only walk very short distances are unable to take part in most everyday life activities is fantasy land level nonsense that points to a complete lack of knowledge or awareness of mobility issues.

ITV2

Podge_irl wrote: »

I am perfectly willing to bet that the proportion of people who can't walk 2-300m to a bus stop, but who are currently within that distance of a bus stop whose route takes them to within 2-300m of everywhere they need to go and who will now be unable to take public transport is, in fact, spectacularly tiny. I am also fully aware that they will be discommoded by this plan and that is unfortunate. Hopefully other systems can be put in place for them.

As it is today the vast majority of estates don't have buses running through them. The few that do are an anomaly that should not exist.

Like the situation in Larkhill estate with the 44.

LeinsterDub

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

I disagree and don't think it reads like that at all. There are in fact LOTS of us who cannot walk 500m to a bus stop - it is going to be an issue. It's not as unusual or such a minority as suggested by many here. And my point is that despite this we actually do manage to go places and do things, whereas the crap posted here suggests anyone who can't walk 500m must he unable to do anything at the other end of the journey anyway. That's simply nonsense.

They didn't suggest that . What was said and it's a fair point is if they can't walk 500 meters to the bus stop what are they doing when they reach OCS for example? There isn't much that's less than 500m from the top of OCS . The bottom of Henry St is 600m , OCS at parnell to OCS at Henry st is 300 m. If this is the case perhaps a dial-a-bus option would be more appropriate

noelfirl

devnull wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

I can't view the attachment but that pretty much sums up everything that's wrong with the current system.

Sorry - I just got hold of the full NBRU handout rather than a few pages so I've replaced the original attachment with a new one which is more comprehensive.

God that makes me so angry. It's a free world, but really, what right or mandate do the NBRU have to go out to public meetings and distribute material which is giving a selective and biased summary of the changes, with I'm certain, no comparative insight on the improvements that the changes would bring. 
The NTA really need to be actively pushing back against that sort of one-side narrative spreading.

Stephen15

I'm sorry but if you can't walk 500m and are under the age of 80 and you don't have any sort of disability there's something seriously wrong with you it's a complete non argument.

I see a guy in a wheelchair every morning who wheels himself about over a pedestrian skywalk to get a bus stop I'm nearly sure once he's on the bus he has to wheel himself a further distance to get to his final destination.

There is also an 87 year old neighbour of mine who lives across the road from me who regularly walks to the same bus stop that I use which is over 500m from her house she seems to manage perfectly fine. She also tells me that she sometimes gets a bus to the Luas proving that elderly people can manage interchanges.

AlekSmart

ITV2 wrote: »

Like the situation in Larkhill estate with the 44.

If Jarrett Walker and the NTA need a rallying point for their Busconnects plan,then the Luke Kelly monument on Larkhill Green would be an ideal point for a duel to the death !!

BAC has been quite happy to fling away a great deal of the broader benefits of the 44 operating in and out of one of the largest University Campus sites in the State,as long as it could cling grimly to the right to have double deck buses stuck behind the ever increasing numbers of SU's 4X4's and Builders Van's doing the 'School Run' twice a day.

Never mind the significant loads of DCU Staff and Students who are forcibly dragged through "Larker" both Outbound AND Inbound....as it's traditional

It's up to the NTA/BAC roadshows now to sell this concept,but they have already given a head-start to the headers,who are losing no opportunity to decorate lamp-standards all over the Capital.

For such a big-budget organization,the NTA has shown itself bereft of good public relations advice here,and they do not have much time to get it back on track....:rolleyes:

MJohnston

Can we leave the walking distances thing off? It's really counterproductive, and it's not the primary reason why BusConnects is moving away from an ultra-local network. It's also not an argument that is going to win anyone over.

r93kaey5p2izun

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They didn't suggest that . What was said and it's a fair point is if they can't walk 500 meters to the bus stop what are they doing when they reach OCS for example? There isn't much that's less than 500m from the top of OCS . The bottom of Henry St is 600m , OCS at parnell to OCS at Henry st is 300 m. If this is the case perhaps a dial-a-bus option would be more appropriate

What they do is plan their activities so they can sit down regularly. What's the point of the examples above? If you can't walk that far then you won't go there - doesn't mean you don't go anywhere! I get off the bus on Bachelor's Walk for example. I then walk down Liffey Street. I can sit down for a few moments if necessary in Arnotts. That gets me to Arnotts or M&S. If I'm stuck both these shops are excellent for getting a chair from the changing room or sit at the shoe dept. Through M&S I can get into Jervis where there's lots of seats. Or across to Dunnes where again there's a chance to sit if needed. You go from shop to shop and know where every bench or chair is. There tends not to be such options in residential areas at the other end. So people can struggle with mobility but can still go about their daily activities.

Arguments claiming otherwise are rubbish.

AlekSmart

noelfirl wrote: »

God that makes me so angry. It's a free world, but really, what right or mandate do the NBRU have to go out to public meetings and distribute material which is giving a selective and biased summary of the changes, with I'm certain, no comparative insight on the improvements that the changes would bring. 
The NTA really need to be actively pushing back against that sort of one-side narrative spreading.

Like or Loath them,the NBRU,or more particularly it's General Secretary Dermot O'Leary has been doing a fantastic textbook job of representing it's views and interests on the Busconnects Plan.

The speed and breadth of their campaign,has effectively left both NTA and Jarret Walker himself fighting a rearguard action,before the ink was dry on the plan,and LONG before anybody had read & digested it.

I say huzzah to the NBRU,as it has very definitely exposed the lack of focus within the NTA,who are as a result,now being seen as largely clueless.

Yiz might'nt like it,but Dermot O Leary is the Irish Media's Go-To person now for ALL matters Busconnects.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Can we leave the walking distances thing off? It's really counterproductive, and it's not the primary reason why BusConnects is moving away from an ultra-local network. It's also not an argument that is going to win anyone over.

Is it really? I mean we all accept there are people who have major mobility issue. But frankly no bus service is going to be ideal for them.

I think its fair to point out what distance 300 - 500 metres actually is in the real world.

I think it's fair and reasonable to discuss what we are aiming to have. For example x% of people with yM of bus stop.

Something along the lines of 90% within 500m and maybe even more refined 80% within 300m. I would suggest is a reasonable target and I believe this program will meet those figures.

AlekSmart

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

What they do is plan their activities so they can sit down regularly. What's the point of the examples above? If you can't walk that far then you won't go there - doesn't mean you don't go anywhere! I get off the bus on Bachelor's Walk for example. I then walk down Liffey Street. I can sit down for a few moments if necessary in Arnotts. That gets me to Arnotts or M&S. If I'm stuck both these shops are excellent for getting a chair from the changing room or sit at the shoe dept. Through M&S I can get into Jervis where there's lots of seats. Or across to Dunnes where again there's a chance to sit if needed. You go from shop to shop and know where every bench or chair is. There tends not to be such options in residential areas at the other end. So people can struggle with mobility but can still go about their daily activities.

Arguments claiming otherwise are rubbish.

One could argue that your well put and valid point regarding seats,could spur a campaign to seek a reason from Dublin City Council,as to why it has totally eliminated Social Seating from Dublin City Centre...was it accidental...or ??

All of the seating you mention is commercially provided,and geared towards getting users to purchase something....DCC,on the other hand,appear to facilitate only users of Multi-Storey Car Parks .

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm sorry but if you can't walk 500m and are under the age of 80 and you don't have any sort of disability there's something seriously wrong with you it's a complete non argument.

I see a guy in a wheelchair every morning who wheels himself about over a pedestrian skywalk to get a bus stop I'm nearly sure once he's on the bus he has to wheel himself a further distance to get to his final destination.

There is also an 87 year old neighbour of mine who lives across the road from me who regularly walks to the same bus stop that I use which is over 500m from her house she seems to manage perfectly fine. She also tells me that she sometimes gets a bus to the Luas proving that elderly people can manage interchanges.

Of course there's something wrong - that's obvious?! What a weird statement. I don't have a disability but suffer from a health condition that affects my ability to cope with any exertion at all. I'm in my 30s. Oh to be lucky enough to be as oblivious as you appear to be! The exertion of wheeling myself would be just as big an issue.

The posts here are crazy! Even when someone isn't arguing for retaining local access or arguing against the proposed changes, some still feel need to make poorly informed claims about mobility issues. By all means argue that the proposals will improve things for the majority of bus users (and I agree with ye!) but stop making silly statements about something ye clearly know very little about.

LeinsterDub

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

What they do is plan their activities so they can sit down regularly. What's the point of the examples above? If you can't walk that far then you won't go there - doesn't mean you don't go anywhere! I get off the bus on Bachelor's Walk for example. I then walk down Liffey Street. I can sit down for a few moments if necessary in Arnotts. That gets me to Arnotts or M&S. If I'm stuck both these shops are excellent for getting a chair from the changing room or sit at the shoe dept. Through M&S I can get into Jervis where there's lots of seats. Or across to Dunnes where again there's a chance to sit if needed. You go from shop to shop and know where every bench or chair is. There tends not to be such options in residential areas at the other end. So people can struggle with mobility but can still go about their daily activities.

Arguments claiming otherwise are rubbish.

I'm not claiming they don't struggle or that they don't continue with their daily activities. My point is, was and will be a reasonable comprise distance needs to be decided and a service offered to those who can't make that distance.