Radical action for cycling safety attention.

Pinch Flat

Ok, so it's got beyond a joke now. The 10th death announced this morning, RIP to the gentleman. Died doing what he loves and leaves a family heart broken. Just as all the other deaths on our roads.

Cyclists are bearing a disproportionate brunt of road death statistics - at this rate, we'll hit 20 plus before the year is out - I'm sick of the attitude of drivers. They pay "road tax", therefore they own the road, Cyclists are a nuisance. Cyclists hold me up.

No. we're brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, sons, daughters. friends. HUMAN BEINGS. Someone whose whole life revolves around who would be inconsolable if we were killed because some tool wants to get to a shopping center, red light or other event that's more important than our safety

5 Months into the year. 10 lives gone. It's gone beyond hi-vis and helmets / registration plates / "road tax". It's a "Stop de Kindermoord" moment. Stop killing us. You're driving is killing us. Please stop. It's destroying families.

It's time to bring the attention of cycling to the national media. We're sick of the RSA, George Hook, the Irish media and their vendetta against cycling. it's starting to pervade into every walk of life and "cycle bashing" is becoming all too common - even in my job, which involves interacting with engineers and architects, cycle parking is still seen as a bit of a joke.

It's time for a "Die-in" - one that brings the city to a stand still. One that brings to national attention the concern of people like me and others on this forum when they're doing something that they shouldn't be killed doing.

Irishcycle, Dublin Cycle campaign, rothar - any other groups. We need to unite to stop this carnage.

/rant

magicbastarder

the garda traffic corps are barely over 50% of the strength of the force they had at their peak about ten years ago, and the number of cars on the road has gone up considerably.
notwithstanding the breathalyser issue, and summonses issues, the chances of actually being caught for breaking the law while driving (or cycling) has undoubtedly also tumbled, so there seems to be a creeping laxity (is that a word?) with the driving habits of many motorists.

i think this is one of the biggest single issues; no one is afraid of being done for breaking the law anymore, and it's made most (if not many) people lazier as regards driving and cycling standards.

mr spuckler

magicbastarder wrote: »

the garda traffic corps are barely over 50% of the strength of the force they had at their peak about ten years ago, and the number of cars on the road has gone up considerably.
notwithstanding the breathalyser issue, and summonses issues, the chances of actually being caught for breaking the law while driving (or cycling) has undoubtedly also tumbled, so there seems to be a creeping laxity (is that a word?) with the driving habits of many motorists.

i think this is one of the biggest single issues; no one is afraid of being done for breaking the law anymore, and it's made most (if not many) people lazier as regards driving and cycling standards.

it's an extension of people calling for new laws and assuming they'll solve everything. they won't.
enforcement is a huge huge issue, as is education regarding safe driving behaviour around cyclists.

traco

The laws are there just need enforcement. More laws with no enforcement is a complete waste of time and open to more challenges etc if actually brought to court

Education is also a huge issue and should start in national school with cycling ed for young kids. This should be run right up through secondary school where cycling and driving lessons should be merged. You shouldn't be allowed to drive a car unless you can safely ride a bike and have an awareness of the vulnerability of other road users.

I'd even go so far as to say the driving lessons should be progressive from one format to another.

Bicycle to moped to car to car. You only appreciate another persons perspective if you have stood in their shoes.

Time

The question of contributory negligence on behalf of those who have been killed must also be asked. It is highly likely that in some of these cases the accident was partially the fault of the cyclist, who due to the laws of physics will always come off worse, this is an oft stick to beat motorists with; the "they're killing us mantra".

The fact is though that if cyclists act in a manner that results in them being responsible for accidents that are fatal, then this need to be highlighted so we can all learn from it. We all know some motorists are bad, but we must also accept that a not insignificant number of cyclists act with flagrant disregard to their own safety and the law, especially in the city centre.

If we don't learn from the mistakes that are made by both sides, we'll never actually improve anything.

Leroy42

Whilst I fully agree on the need for education in schools, there is clearly a massive deficit in education for current drivers in relation to the massive increase in cycling.

20 years ago (10 even) cyclists were a random oddity, now they form a increasing % of the actual traffic yet, IMO, drivers opinions have not yet changed to take this into account.

Cyclists are still seen as borrowing the road, something to be put up with. The amount of times I am passed by a car on my right only to have to break as the driver has to slow down to take the next left is crazy. But many see nothing wrong with it.

New cycling infrastruture, traffic lights etc have been introduced with, again IMO, little information being provided to anybody. You turn up one day and there is a dotted line at the left of the lane which disappears a few meters later!

Moflojo

Time wrote: »

The question of contributory negligence on behalf of those who have been killed must also be asked. It is highly likely that in some of these cases the accident was partially the fault of the cyclist, who due to the laws of physics will always come off worse, this is an oft stick to beat motorists with; the "they're killing us mantra".

The fact is though that if cyclists act in a manner that results in them being responsible for accidents that are fatal, then this need to be highlighted so we can all learn from it. We all know some motorists are bad, but we must also accept that a not insignificant number of cyclists act with flagrant disregard to their own safety and the law, especially in the city centre.

If we don't learn from the mistakes that are made by both sides, we'll never actually improve anything.

I'm calling BS on the sentiment of your post. The dominant burden of responsibility should be on the people in charge of the >1 Tonne vehicles capable of travelling at speeds faster than 100km/h.

Suggesting that cyclists or pedestrians share any similar level of responsibility to vehicle drivers is a false equivalence, plain and simple. If people are driving in such a way that leaves no margin for error for vulnerable road users, then they are not driving responsibly in my opinion.

Thud

Is there a clear solution that will get all cyclists behind it?
Too many muddies the water and a one step/demand at a time might help.

-1.5m passing law: a good idea but not applicable on many city roads in traffic so creates some vagueness/unenforceability, would help driver attitude a bit
-Enforcement of current rules: Garda attitude and resources issue.
-Give cyclist respect: a bit vague an unenforceable
-Cycling infrastructure: expensive and can take years to implement, can't cover all country roads where many deaths occur
-30kmh speed limit in built up areas: will help but not the solution for country roads
-HGVs bans in city: as above but buses are also an issue
-Close pass reporting system: would help but requires cyclist to have cameras.
-how media portray cyclists: part of the problem but too many individual mouthpieces with set attitude/agendas to silence (free speech etc..)
-high vis and helmets: not the solution but called for by some cyclists

An RSA graphic cyclist killer ad might hit home
A scoreboard (like the number of road deaths signs that used to appear on country roads): cyclists killed by driver vs drivers killed by cyclists.

Time

Moflojo wrote: »

I'm calling BS on the sentiment of your post. The dominant burden of responsibility should be on the people in charge of the >1 Tonne vehicles capable of travelling at speeds faster than 100km/h.

Suggesting that cyclists or pedestrians share any similar level of responsibility to vehicle drivers is a false equivalence, plain and simple. If people are driving in such a way that leaves no margin for error for vulnerable road users, then they are not driving responsibly in my opinion.

I think you're misinterpreting what i said. I never said anything about a burden of responsibility. What i'm talking about is where cyclists act negligently and that negligence in some way, be it partially or fully, is the reason an accident occurs.

To give an example. If a car were travelling on a main N road on a straight, on a clear day, at 80KM per hour (100km zone) and a cyclist were to speed out from a side road having failed to stop, and was killed despite the driver breaking immediately, I don't think anyone could say that the cyclists actions were not a major contributing factor to their death.

Now clearly that is an extreme example, but it serves to highlight the fact that all road users have a responsibility, and that if any of us fail to act in accordance with that responsibility, and an accident occurs as a result of that we are also partially responsible.

So in the 10 cases this year to date if contributory negligence was a factor in the deaths, i for one would like to know, so i can avoid making the same mistakes, and hopefully other people will too and lives will be saved

So saying that drivers/cyclists have more or less than each other is irrelevant, whats relevant is that all road users have responsibility. But by all means go ahead and keep demonising motorists without asking for the full facts and whether the cyclist had any part to play.

Thud

Thud wrote: »

Is there a clear solution that will get all cyclists behind it?
Too many muddies the water and a one step/demand at a time might help.

-1.5m passing law: a good idea but not applicable on many city roads in traffic so creates some vagueness/unenforceability, would help driver attitude a bit
-Enforcement of current rules: Garda attitude and resources issue.
-Give cyclist respect: a bit vague an unenforceable
-Cycling infrastructure: expensive and can take years to implement, can't cover all country roads where many deaths occur
-30kmh speed limit in built up areas: will help but not the solution for country roads
-HGVs bans in city: as above but buses are also an issue
-Close pass reporting system: would help but requires cyclist to have cameras.
-how media portray cyclists: part of the problem but too many individual mouthpieces with set attitude/agendas to silence (free speech etc..)
-high vis and helmets: not the solution but called for by some cyclists

An RSA graphic cyclist killer ad might hit home
A scoreboard (like the number of road deaths signs that used to appear on country roads): cyclists killed by driver vs drivers killed by cyclists.

- Strict Liability This a law to protect vulnerable road users from more powerful road users. Under this law, in crashes involving vulnerable road users, unless it can be clearly proven that the vulnerable road user was at fault the more powerful road user is found liable by default.

sqwertypoo1934

magicbastarder wrote: »

the garda traffic corps are barely over 50% of the strength of the force they had at their peak about ten years ago, and the number of cars on the road has gone up considerably.
notwithstanding the breathalyser issue, and summonses issues, the chances of actually being caught for breaking the law while driving (or cycling) has undoubtedly also tumbled, so there seems to be a creeping laxity (is that a word?) with the driving habits of many motorists.

i think this is one of the biggest single issues; no one is afraid of being done for breaking the law anymore, and it's made most (if not many) people lazier as regards driving and cycling standards.

The traffic corps have been completely disgraced.
Not alone are they under strength and under enforcing anything except 140kph on a dry day on a motorway (wooooo danger danger!), they are earmarked for being disbanded altogether due to the scandals.

So we are effectively in limbo here until the new corps/squad/force/service is rolled out.
Just another farce in Dnaleri.

Andy Magic

People have become so selfish these days and there is no amount of laws or enforcement that will change this. I drive and cycle, I have given up cycling to work and I have given up cycling on roads that I am consistently in danger on, I now go different routes. I believe the media has created an us vs them between motorists and cyclists which needs to be reversed, I think it’s up to Irish media to report incidents factually and not post stupid opinion polls or incorrect reporting which unites people to hate cyclists.

Back to my point of selfishness though, I think since the recession kicked in everyone wants to get one over on each other and this filters right down to cutting people off in traffic, at lights or roundabouts.. It’s all about getting one over on someone. I notice this even when driving but I feel far safer in my car. I have also noticed the 1.5m is not obeyed or enforced, sure the guards themselves have squeezed by at less than 1m.

RIP to the latest man to pass away, it’s a pity the media can’t report who he has left behind.

Moflojo

Andy Magic wrote: »

I have also noticed the 1.5m is not obeyed or enforced, sure the guards themselves have squeezed by at less than 1m.

Just a point of order, but the 1.5m minimum passing distance law isn't in place yet, it's currently waiting in some kind of lottery system that the Oireachtas uses for choosing which new pieces of legislation to debate and enact.

mr spuckler

Moflojo wrote: »

Just a point of order, but the 1.5m minimum passing distance law isn't in place yet, it's currently waiting in some kind of lottery system that the Oireachtas uses for choosing which new pieces of legislation to debate and enact.

am pretty sure that Shane Ross knocked this on the head in recent comments that were posted here as responses to questions sent to him. will see if I can dig that out.

Moflojo

mr spuckler wrote: »

am pretty sure that Shane Ross knocked this on the head in recent comments that were posted here as responses to questions sent to him. will see if I can dig that out.

Knocked which on the head, the proposed law or the process? At this point it could nearly be proposed as emergency legislation, given the increased rate of cyclist fatalities.

mr spuckler

Moflojo wrote: »

Knocked which on the head, the proposed law or the process? At this point it could nearly be proposed as emergency legislation, given the increased rate of cyclist fatalities.

am trying to find the exact wording but was asked if any legislation was to be introduced to improve the safety of cyclists on the road and said no.

cython

mr spuckler wrote: »

am trying to find the exact wording but was asked if any legislation was to be introduced to improve the safety of cyclists on the road and said no.

Open to correction on this, but I believe that that answer was provided in the context that he had no plans to bring forth new legislation in that area, but I don't think that would stop other TDs from proposing same, and I understand that's what was already in progress with the MPDL.

mr spuckler

cython wrote: »

Open to correction on this, but I believe that that answer was provided in the context that he had no plans to bring forth new legislation in that area, but I don't think that would stop other TDs from proposing same, and I understand that's what was already in progress with the MPDL.

as I am open to correction also

Chips Lovell

Passing yet another law that won't be enforced is a solution that would go down well with a lot of politicians. With relatively little effort, they can point to it and claim credit for doing something for road safety.

Dangerous overtaking is already on the statute books. The problem is that it, and other laws, aren't enforced enough to deter people from doing it.

Increasing Traffic Corps numbers and improved road user education will take a lot of time and money but will provide more than cosmetic results.

mr spuckler

here's the quote i was thinking of

I have no plans at present to bring forward specific road traffic legislation regarding cycling safety. In my view, safety for cyclists is best addressed by way of educational and publicity campaigns, such as those undertaken by the Road Safety Authority (RSA). The RSA promote awareness of the Rules of the Road and safe practice on our roads for all road users including the awareness of cyclists and other vulnerable road users among motorists and drivers of heavy commercial vehicles, in conjunction with promoting safe cycling practice by promoting awareness among cyclists of the need for visibility on our roads.

Ruat Caelum

I am shocked that there have only been 10 fatalities this year.

On my commute to and from work I often see instances of both dangerous drivers and dangerous cyclists. Drivers who speed up at orange lights, or ignore red lights completely, who move from lane to lane and turn corners without indicating, who speed through roundabouts without any regard for traffic already on it, drivers who drive extremely close to me.

But it's the same with cyclists! Ploughing through red lights, swerving in and out with indicating, overtaking too close to other cyclists (And without any regard as to what's ahead of they cyclist they're overtaking), speeding inside of buses and trucks at junctions without any regard of anything ahead of them.

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars).

Thankfully I have never seen a serious accident. But I have seen cyclists cause accidents. I have seen them cycle into cars, into pedastrians, and into each other.

A lot of cyclists need to wake the eff up and start taking their safety more seriously.

Moflojo

In my view, safety for cyclists is best addressed by way of educational and publicity campaigns, such as those undertaken by the Road Safety Authority (RSA).

Awareness. The solution to every problem. This reminds me of a good story I heard recently:

A friend of a friend was an early adopter of electric vehicles. One of the issues he frequently ran into was inconsistencies with the charging points around the country. The app for locating charge points wasn't always entirely accurate when it came to the availability and serviceability of individual charge points.

So this guy arrives at a charging station in a relatively remote part of the midlands only to find that the station appears to be out of service, even though his app had told him that the charge point was serviceable. He calls the relevant service provider to let them know that the charging station is out of order and they tell him "Oh sorry about that, we'll get it sorted in the next few minutes."

"Great," he thinks, and hangs around waiting for the station to come back online or for a technician to arrive. After about 20 minutes of hanging around and with no change to the situation he decides to call the service provider again.

"Oh we fixed that," he's told, when he asks for an update.
"But the station is still out of order?"
"Oh yeah the station is broken. We've updated the app so that it says the station is out of order."

The problem still exists, but everyone is now fully aware of it.

Awareness.

Ruat Caelum

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

I am shocked that there have only been 10 fatalities this year.

On my commute to and from work I often see instances of both dangerous drivers and dangerous cyclists. Drivers who speed up at orange lights, or ignore red lights completely, who move from lane to lane and turn corners without indicating, who speed through roundabouts without any regard for traffic already on it, drivers who drive extremely close to me.

But it's the same with cyclists! Ploughing through red lights, swerving in and out with indicating, overtaking too close to other cyclists (And without any regard as to what's ahead of they cyclist they're overtaking), speeding inside of buses and trucks at junctions without any regard of anything ahead of them.

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars).

Thankfully I have never seen a serious accident. But I have seen cyclists cause accidents. I have seen them cycle into cars, into pedastrians, and into each other.

A lot of cyclists need to wake the eff up and start taking their safety more seriously.

Could you perhaps have picked a better thread to have a rant about cyclists?

mr spuckler

ronoc wrote: »

Could you perhaps have picked a better thread to have a rant about cyclists?

note the brief attempt to introduce balance, which was quickly aborted.

Grassey

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars). .

If it is an appropriately installed seat for a child what is the issue? In general I support parents bringing kids for short journeys on the bike rather than into the SUV for a spin to the shops. I do hate seeing people with kids in tow running red lights, weaving in traffic without indicating, in general being dicks. Be it in car or on a bike.

Be a tosser on your own time, not when you are also responsible for a child!

ThisRegard

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them.

Why?

mr spuckler

ThisRegard wrote: »

Why?

quite.

also as has been mentioned above...bearing in mind that this thread is a response to the numerous deaths of cyclists on irish roads, none of which involved children on bikes, it seems a bit off to go on such a rant here.

Pinch Flat

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars)

Why? Other countries can manage this. Go to the Netherlands or Denmark and you'll see whole families on a bike - it's normal.

We've dangerised cycling here and our roads have become so intimidating places that adults are struggling cycling on, never minds kids. We've created a car dependent society for which everything else goes beneath. It's really sad. We've become a mini America with our road attitudes. Get out of my way, go here, don't go there..

Arcade_Tryer

Have the RSA released a television ad showing dangerous overtaking? Whatever about enforcement, I don't think a lot of people even understand that they are dangerously overtaking a cyclist. Even if enforcement is prioritised, it's very difficult to enforce such a law. An informative campaign by the RSA and a long term cultural change is desperately needed. Education > Enforcement.

Ruat Caelum

ronoc wrote: »

Could you perhaps have picked a better thread to have a rant about cyclists?

Sorry, it didn't start as a rant against cyclists. I commute 7-8k into work and back every day. But I do think any discussion of cyclist safety should at least acknowledge the dangers many cyclists put themselves and others in.

ronoc wrote: »

Could you perhaps have picked a better thread to have a rant about cyclists?

mr spuckler wrote: »

note the brief attempt to introduce balance, which was quickly aborted.

mr spuckler wrote: »

quite.

also as has been mentioned above...bearing in mind that this thread is a response to the numerous deaths of cyclists on irish roads, none of which involved children on bikes, it seems a bit off to go on such a rant here.

First of all, that wasn't a rant against cyclists. That is what I see when I cycle every day (and not just when the weather is good).

Second, the title of the thread is Radical action for cycling safety attention. Any discussion of cycling safety has to acknowledge the amount of dangerous risks many cyclists take.

I don't think I've been ranting, if that's how I came across I apologise (But I also suspect some people are either being too precious or overly touchy). When it comes to safety, I think we need to cop on and look at ourselves as well as other road users.

Pinch Flat

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Have the RSA released a television ad showing dangerous overtaking? Whatever about enforcement, I don't think a lot of people even understand that they are dangerously overtaking a cyclist. Even if enforcement is prioritised, it's very difficult to enforce such a law. An informative campaign by the RSA and a long term cultural change is desperately needed. Education > Enforcement.

Mrs Pinch Flat doesn't cycle, never has. Days when I'm a passenger in the car are fun. "Ah watch the cyclists", screams me. "Well, I didn't hit him, did i", shaving a guy by inches. That's part of the problem - there's a huge cohort of drivers that simply seen no issue with passing within inches. Sure I didn't hit you, do I?