Radical action for cycling safety attention.

Ruat Caelum

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Why? Other countries can manage this. Go to the Netherlands or Denmark and you'll see whole families on a bike - it's normal.

We've dangerised cycling here and our roads have become so intimidating places that adults are struggling cycling on, never minds kids. We've created a car dependent society for which everything else goes beneath. It's really sad. We've become a mini America with our road attitudes. Get out of my way, go here, don't go there..

ThisRegard wrote: »

Why?

The main reason I don't like seeing kids as passengers on bikes is because I think it's too dangerous. I can't speak for the Netherlands or Denmark, I can only speak for myself and what I have seen on the roads in Dublin. I hadn't a problem with it before I saw a cyclist with a kid in the back seat lurching to one side as he went through a red light diagonally across a cross roads, but I have become more and more aware of parents and child seats.

Chips Lovell

I think the issue there is dangerous cycling, not carrying a child. There's nothing about carrying a child that made your man break a red.

Choochtown

How about ...hear me out now ... a national "no cycling day" where anyone caught cycling would be fined.


Ironically this would give motorists in urban areas a greater appreciation of cyclists when the gridlock on their route to work on their road would be many times worse.

They'd be begging the cyclists to come back the following day! (and perhaps maybe showing them a little more courtesy)

07Lapierre

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Mrs Pinch Flat doesn't cycle, never has. Days when I'm a passenger in the car are fun. "Ah watch the cyclists", screams me. "Well, I didn't hit him, did i", shaving a guy by inches. That's part of the problem - there's a huge cohort of drivers that simply seen no issue with passing within inches. Sure I didn't hit you, do I?

And shes not alone either! I think there's a whole generation of drivers out there who have never cycled. they associate roads with motorised traffic only.

That's why i think this is a good idea...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057746843

It's not perfect, but it's a start!

Pinch Flat

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The main reason I don't like seeing kids as passengers on bikes is because I think it's too dangerous.

What do you feel makes it too dangerous? Would a child as a passenger on a bike on a cycle lane be dangerous, or is it just on the roads? if it's the latter, driver attitudes can make it less dangerous.

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

I can't speak for the Netherlands or Denmark, I can only speak for myself and what I have seen on the roads in Dublin. I hadn't a problem with it before I saw a cyclist with a kid in the back seat lurching to one side as he went through a red light diagonally across a cross roads, but I have become more and more aware of parents and child seats.

True, but there's no reason we can't aspire to be like other European cities who've put their own citizens needs above the needs of people in private cars.
We still facilitate a ridiculous amount of on street parking that could be converted to cycle lanes - a lot of our street could be contra-flows or have improvements made to get a bike from ones side of the city to another without following a convoluted route of "no rights / no lefts", a finger in the dam approach to traffic management.

Cities are restricting / banning altogether private cars. It's only a matter of time in Dublin. Dublin's turned into a mess.

mr spuckler

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

Second, the title of the thread is Radical action for cycling safety attention. Any discussion of cycling safety has to acknowledge the amount of dangerous risks many cyclists take.

if the focus is on actions to reduce cyclist deaths, a focus on things which are not killing cyclists is therefore tangential.

regular posters here are well aware of mis-behaviour by cyclists on the road and very often call it out themselves, so you shouldn't think that a one-eyed view is taken. neither is anybody sensitive to balanced observations / criticisms.

the fact remains that cyclists are dying because of collisions with vehicles with the majority occurring in hard shoulders, on country roads or in city collisions with trucks.

Time

mr spuckler wrote: »

if the focus is on actions to reduce cyclist deaths, a focus on things which are not killing cyclists is therefore tangential.

regular posters here are well aware of mis-behaviour by cyclists on the road and very often call it out themselves, so you shouldn't think that a one-eyed view is taken. neither is anybody sensitive to balanced observations / criticisms.

the fact remains that cyclists are dying because of collisions with vehicles with the majority occurring in hard shoulders, on country roads or in city collisions with trucks.

That's very true and to get to the root cause it needs to be balanced and unemotional. The tone of the OP was essentially motorists are killing cyclists, and while its true that cyclists are dying its silly to ignore the possibility that in at least some of these cases cyclists do something, that is a significant factor in the causation of the accident.

I can certainly think of one case where the cyclists actions were a significant factor in the accident, and the problem is as were the ones who end up dead, we need to be aware, in order to learn and be safer ourselves.

woody1

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Mrs Pinch Flat doesn't cycle, never has. Days when I'm a passenger in the car are fun. "Ah watch the cyclists", screams me. "Well, I didn't hit him, did i", shaving a guy by inches. That's part of the problem - there's a huge cohort of drivers that simply seen no issue with passing within inches. Sure I didn't hit you, do I?

but nobody passes a runner or a walker that close, or someone on a horse or one of those sulky- horse and cart things .. i dunno what it is about someone on a bike.. is it that the gap is so tantalising.. so just about achievable. the car will fit through.. just .. the back wheel of a bike appears so narrow ?

i run a lot.. ive never been passed close ever.. ive had cars beep me up onto the verge on narrow roads..but most of the time they crawl behind me until they can pass and when they do its as far over the road as possible..
i cycle a lot albeit i now pick and chose which roads.. ive been skimmed more times.. a couple of times on double lane roads with nothing coming the other way and clear view of this.. on tight blind bends and crests of hills.. for the want of 10 seconds...

to provide some balance, its not all drivers .. its a small percentage .. but thats no help to the man that died last night...

ironmonkey

I run and cycle around country roads regularly. I find the same dangers exist with aggressive drivers. The difference is when running I can hear cars approaching and determine what action to take based on road, speed etc. I am becoming more and more reluctant to go out on the bike as I find it's just not worth it. I know the perception of danger is greater than the actual danger but it lessons the enjoyment of going for a spin.

mr spuckler

Time wrote: »

That's very true and to get to the root cause it needs to be balanced and unemotional. The tone of the OP was essentially motorists are killing cyclists, and while its true that cyclists are dying its silly to ignore the possibility that in at least some of these cases cyclists do something, that is a significant factor in the causation of the accident.

it's come up before in multiple threads that we would like to get detailed causes of incidents to understand whether cyclist behaviour or actions contributed to or caused the collision. or indeed whether close passing / texting while driving etc was the main cause. this unfortunately is very hard to come by, even after the completion of coroners inquest etc.

what we do know from first hand experience is;

1) how we feel on the roads wrt close passes etc and what cyclists observe to be the factors which endanger them
2) HGVs being driven in towns & cities are not suited for built up areas. legislation is being brought in elsewhere to outlaw HGVs with poor sightlines from urban centres
3) despite the narrative regarding cyclists behaviour, motorists adherence to rotr is absolutely awful. this is an interesting read if the mood takes one
4) our cycling infrastructure is poor at best and recent road / junction planning fails to inspire confidence of an improvement in the short term
5) the attitude towards cyclists from sections of motorists & media can be quite poisonous
6) there is at best little enforcement of road safety legislation, which links back to point 1

the OP was clearly emotional but regardless of whether (s)he was talking about all or even just 1 of the deaths the fact is that motorists kill cyclists, not the other way around.

I can certainly think of one case where the cyclists actions were a significant factor in the accident, and the problem is as were the ones who end up dead, we need to be aware, in order to learn and be safer ourselves.

cyclists should absolutely act to ensure their own safety. that doesn't reduce the onus on the motorist to ensure the safety of other road users, per the rotr.

tomasrojo

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars).

I love seeing people bring their kids on bikes. I do it myself nearly every day.

ThisRegard

woody1 wrote: »

i run a lot.. ive never been passed close ever.. ive had cars beep me up onto the verge on narrow roads..but most of the time they crawl behind me until they can pass and when they do its as far over the road as possible..
i cycle a lot albeit i now pick and chose which roads.. ive been skimmed more times.. a couple of times on double lane roads with nothing coming the other way and clear view of this.. on tight blind bends and crests of hills.. for the want of 10 seconds...

to provide some balance, its not all drivers .. its a small percentage .. but thats no help to the man that died last night...

As do I, and have been clipped by wing mirrors. It sounds like you run in the same direction of traffic though if the cars crawl behind you?

The difference with running on roads is that you're running against traffic and can make eye contact with the driver, thus personalising it. If I feel a car will come too close I usually wave them out.

Tenzor07

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars).

OMG! How dare people use bicycles like in other civilised societies! Can't they afford a nice new Diesel SUV!?

cajonlardo

Ruat Caelum wrote: »

I am shocked that there have only been 10 fatalities this year.

On my commute to and from work I often see instances of both dangerous drivers and dangerous cyclists. Drivers who speed up at orange lights, or ignore red lights completely, who move from lane to lane and turn corners without indicating, who speed through roundabouts without any regard for traffic already on it, drivers who drive extremely close to me.

But it's the same with cyclists! Ploughing through red lights, swerving in and out with indicating, overtaking too close to other cyclists (And without any regard as to what's ahead of they cyclist they're overtaking), speeding inside of buses and trucks at junctions without any regard of anything ahead of them.

The one thing I hate seeing is cyclists with young children on their bike with them. It is not uncommon for me to see cyclists with two kids sitting on the bike, one on the back and one on the cross bar. (Recently I even saw a baby seat attached like a basket to the front handle bars).

Thankfully I have never seen a serious accident. But I have seen cyclists cause accidents. I have seen them cycle into cars, into pedastrians, and into each other.

A lot of cyclists need to wake the eff up and start taking their safety more seriously.

Have a look at this: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study

and also google cyclist and motor accident fault.

Chips Lovell

From the study cited above:

With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.

uptherebels

Pinch Flat wrote: »

who've put their own citizens needs above the needs of people in private cars.

But people in cars are citizens aswell, so you mean put the needs of one group of citizens above the other? Ireland did that already but they chose drivers and cars.

You want safer roads for cyclists the country needs a proper integrated public transport network. But due to successive governments kicking that can down the road for so long it is now at the stage that so much work needs to be done to achieve it, it will never happen.

You can talk about all the law changes you want and cycling infrastructure you want, it wont change anything.Trying to integrate on road cycle lanes into cities that have terrible roads and junctions for cars anyway, and with idiotic planning ( looking at you cork city council) leads to situation we have now, bad roads, bad cycle lanes mixed together, with less room for cars due to narrower roads and the cyclists on the now narrower roads due to badly planned and maintained/cleaned cycle lanes.

Grassey

woody1 wrote:

i dunno what it is about someone on a bike.. is it that the gap is so tantalising.. so just about achievable. the car will fit through.. just .. the back wheel of a bike appears so narrow ?

I think that's the nub of it, drivers have gotten to the stage of everything is an obstruction to them getting to their destination, be it red lights, learner drivers, cyclists, speed limits etc. How many drivers reduce speed (as they pull until a cycle lane) when passing on the inside a right turning car? How many reduce speed on roads where roadworks have narrowed the lanes? Or a parked bus? They see a gap that as a 'good driver' they can make so why should they slow down?

There must be a sub conscious thought process that equates cyclists to stationary inanimate objects, therfore a really good driver can make the gap without needing to cross a dividing line...

Can't explain the horse thing, though it'd similar with other livestock on the roads. Maybe they are aware of the damage a spooked animal will do to the car? Or there hasn't been a media campaign of negativity directed at them?

cruizer101

First off we should be doing all to reduce road deaths and I do think there does need to be more education on sharing the roads with cyclists.

However on the number of deaths, figures without context don't carry as much meaning.

From this 2012 report
There was 201 road fatalities in Ireland 7 of which were cyclists, 3.4%
There was 581 road fatalities in Holland 138 of which were cyclists, 23.7%
There was 211 road fatalities in Denmark 26 of which were cyclists, 12.3%

So 23% of road fatalities on Holland were cyclists compared to 3.45% here, Why?
Because there are far more cyclists, but Holland is still a far safer place to cycle.

But the fact is when there are more cyclists there will be more cyclists dying, deaths will happen, this is just a sad fact, as much as you can do they will happen, and the more cyclists the more they will happen.

Has cycling increased in Ireland to match the increased number of deaths, I doubt it though it may explain some of the increase.

In general in countries where cycling is more popular cycling deaths per miles cycled decreases. I'm not sure where Ireland lies on this graph, but it would be interesting to know.

This is likely due to more drivers being cyclists themselves and being more aware, better driver/cyclist education, drivers just in general being more used to cyclists on the roads and better cycling infrastructure

I suspect part of the problem is the number of cyclists in Ireland has dramatically increased relatively recently (~10 years) and so the other factors which reduce deaths are lagging behind where in other countries cycling hasn't become more popular it always has been.

I suppose to sum up yes there needs to be more driver education and better infrastructure but the numbers need to be viewed in the context of cycling overall.

tomasrojo

cruizer101 wrote: »

In general in countries where cycling is more popular cycling deaths per miles cycled decreases. I'm not sure where Ireland lies on this graph, but it would be interesting to know.

From what I recall, our KSI per 100 million km is higher than the Netherlands or Denmark, but lower than the UK. There was something posted here recently that had figures for a few countries, but can't remember what it was, or where it was posted.

Edit: chart here, second page (first page proper):
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/ctc_safety_in_numbers_0.pdf
Ireland looks pretty like NL and DK (<10), but we have far fewer children travelling independently and far fewer older cyclists as a proportion of the total. Portugal very bad indeed.

tomasrojo

Graph interesting in that Ireland shows 100km cycled per person per year. Which means quite a few people on here exceed the annual average every week. (Assume that figure is well out of date though.)

Arcade_Tryer

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

From the study cited above:

That stat should be used on radio programmes if only to dispel the "there are good and bad cyclists and drivers" argument which is used to stifle proper discussion concerning the statistically proven danger motorists pose to others.

Chips Lovell

While there's a lot that could be done to improve road safety, I'd agree that it's important to view things in the context of overall cycling numbers.

The 2016 census commuting figures aren't due out until August 31 but the 2011 one showed a 10 percent increase in cyclists commuting over five years.

Figures from Dublin City Council showed that the number of cyclists travelling into the city centre grew from 10,893 in 2015 to 12,089 last year and were up from 4,839 ten years ago.

Alongside this, Cycling Ireland saw its membership grow from 9,000 in 2010 to 28,000 last year, which is indicative of the increase in the number of leisure and racing cyclists.

That's not intended to downplay the recent spate of road deaths, but it ought to born in mind, lest people be put off cycling or considering giving it up in the belief that cycling has become more dangerous than it was.

Hrududu

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Mrs Pinch Flat doesn't cycle, never has. Days when I'm a passenger in the car are fun. "Ah watch the cyclists", screams me. "Well, I didn't hit him, did i", shaving a guy by inches. That's part of the problem - there's a huge cohort of drivers that simply seen no issue with passing within inches. Sure I didn't hit you, do I?

A taxi driver did a veeeery close pass on me once. I kept calm and knocked on his window at the lights to ask why he would do that. He kept saying "Sure I didn't hit ya" and "I could see ya"

Ah grand so. The fact that you came so close to clipping me that the bike wobbled as you passed was fine.

For me though the inattentive drivers are far more prevalent on my commute than the ones that pass at dangerous distances. Glancing at their phones, half watching the car in front instead of everything going on on the road. Not sure how you get them to pay more attention

cajonlardo

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

That stat should be used on radio programmes if only to dispel the "there are good and bad cyclists and drivers" argument which is used to stifle proper discussion concerning the statistically proven danger motorists pose to others.

Your post is the very reason I posted the link.

I am sick to the back teeth of this blame game. Given that I have a driving record of over 35 years combined with several advanced driving courses, emergency service driving, military driving and Close Protection experience I feel that I have a qualified opinion.

In my experience, if someone is driving regularly and experiencing difficulties regularly with cyclists, then the Drivers need to amend their road behaviour, their anticipation and their observation.

All My Stars Aligned

While only a short commute, 8km e/w Drumcondra through the city centre, up Camden St and onto Rathmines, I can honestly say that I feel very safe and over the years can not really think of any instances where I felt otherwise. the reasons for this I reckon are as follows:

I take my time on my bike, always giving myself plenty of time to reach my destination.
I do not cycle between bussed, lorries or other high-sided vehicles unless they are stationary and not in a position where they can make any sudden changes in direction. Even in these circumstances I will only do so when there is plenty of space for me. (At least once a day other cyclists will give me grief for this or try to squees past me). Also when passing between high-sided vehicles I will do so at a slow speed so shout a pedestrian walk out in front of me I can stop quickly.
I adhere to the ROTR. I stop at red lights, signal when turning and so forth.
I acknowledge other road users when appropriate, such as when somebody lets me turn to the like.
I don't take risks on the bike.
I cycle at a speed that allows me to stop quickly and safely.

Yes, some motorists can be a danger to other road users. Yes, some motorists drive with blatant disregard to road traffic laws.

The think is, as a individual we have little or no control on how others behave. We can however control out own actions and I have found that by cycling with due care, adhering to traffic laws and showing curtsey to other I can feel safe on the roads and even enjoy my rush hour commute.

I do feel that if others also did so at the very least we could maybe reduce the 17 - 25% of the statistic previously quoted.

'With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.'

Unfortunately, the reality at the moment is that there seems not to be the political will to genuinely improve road conditions for cyclists. Like others here on Boards, I have written to many TD and this has only confirmed my opinion that cyclists seem not to matter.

Perhaps another small thing that we could try is to take it upon ourselves to talk to friends/family and explain to them the dangers we may encounter on the bike. I know this should not fall on us to do but it seem that if we don't no-one will! Also, family and friends being able to relate these issues to people they actually know might have a better chance of them changing some of their behaviours when driving.

Anyway, I hope I haven't offended anyone with any of the above. Stay safe and enjoy your bike

FlipperThePriest

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Mrs Pinch Flat doesn't cycle, never has. Days when I'm a passenger in the car are fun. "Ah watch the cyclists", screams me. "Well, I didn't hit him, did i", shaving a guy by inches. That's part of the problem - there's a huge cohort of drivers that simply seen no issue with passing within inches. Sure I didn't hit you, do I?

How do you expect we as a nation will change our attitude toward cyclists when you, someone who is clearly very passionate about road safety and cycling, cannot change the attitude of the person closest to you? Surely education starts at home.

ED E

Monday 5th to Sunday 12th:

• Spot any motoring offence big or small that may in any way endanger cyclists
• Take registration plate if possible
• Lo Call 1890 205 805 (Save it in your phone now)

This will generate an influx of complaints to Castlebar which will then land on the desks of all the Supers.

Anyone willing?

jjpep

ED E wrote: »

Monday 5th to Sunday 12th:

• Spot any motoring offence big or small that may in any way endanger cyclists
• Take registration plate if possible
• Lo Call 1890 205 805 (Save it in your phone now)

This will generate an influx of complaints to Castlebar which will then land on the desks of all the Supers.

Anyone willing?

Excellent idea. I'm up for it.

Rezident

The technology is already there. All cyclists need to start using cameras.

I see one or two potentially lethal actions by drivers a week - this week it was the woman driving her kids to school near stillorgan who didn't look just swerved across the cycle lane early in the morning missing me by a few inches. I was expecting the worst (as always) but a colleague of mine was killed cycling in March so I'm particularly wary now.

but we need to record and report these instances every single time. When she gets penalty points or loses her licence, that is a life saved down the line. Possibly your own life!

More cyclists will be killed by cars at Foxrock church. Soon. It is sadly only a matter of time.

Lumen

Rezident wrote: »

The technology is already there. All cyclists need to start using cameras.

I've cycled something like 100,000km in the last ten years ish and the number of incidents I've had where I felt in real peril could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The only case I've felt the need to report to the gardai was one the other day where a nutcase driving a car threatened to kill me and then attempted* to push me into oncoming traffic, but in that instance I had three witnesses who were happy to give evidence.

I'm not going to wire myself up every day for the sake of the very occasional loon.

As far as routine stuff goes, TBH I'd settle for aggressive enforcement against mobile phone use and regular social media campaigns teaching safe overtaking.

(* unsuccessfully, because I am awesome)