Radical action for cycling safety attention.

Tenzor07

Good idea to report something like this, Disqualified driver caught drinking bottle of beer and using phone had no tax,insurance or NCT



https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/869841823958802432/photo/1

Richard308

As a cyclist I have to say we have to be more responsible. It's not always the cars fault and we have to be responsible for our own safety and actions also. I have seen so many poorly skilled cyclists, zero anticipation of danger, poor judgement. A single road death is too much. I've seen a close friend suffer a severe brain injury and debilitated for life. What's needed is more respect and carefulness by all road users. Take steps to reduce your risks. Use cycle ways where provided etc

cajonlardo

Richard308 wrote: »

As a cyclist I have to say we have to be more responsible. It's not always the cars fault and we have to be responsible for our own safety and actions also. I have seen so many poorly skilled cyclists, zero anticipation of danger, poor judgement. A single road death is too much. I've seen a close friend suffer a severe brain injury and debilitated for life. What's needed is more respect and carefulness by all road users. Take steps to reduce your risks. Use cycle ways where provided etc

Did you READ the thread?

Did you read the link earlier posted with researched data stating that up to 80% of car/cycle accidents are established as the MOTORIST fault EXCLUSIVELY.

This is getting really and truly tiresome . I wish people would pay attention to FACTS and just try to suppress the brain farting , these threads are a pure waste of time. On one hand you have people who KNOW what is going on, on the other you have walter mittys

magicbastarder

Richard308 wrote: »

Take steps to reduce your risks. Use cycle ways where provided etc

the problem is that these two sentences are frequently mutually exclusive.

cajonlardo

Lumen wrote: »

I've cycled something like 100,000km in the last ten years ish and the number of incidents I've had where I felt in real peril could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The only case I've felt the need to report to the gardai was one the other day where a nutcase driving a car threatened to kill me and then attempted* to push me into oncoming traffic, but in that instance I had three witnesses who were happy to give evidence.

I'm not going to wire myself up every day for the sake of the very occasional loon.

As far as routine stuff goes, TBH I'd settle for aggressive enforcement against mobile phone use and regular social media campaigns teaching safe overtaking.

(* unsuccessfully, because I am awesome)

Grand so.

Tell the families of the 10 dead this year so far and we'll see how smug you feel. Don't make the mistake of confusing Luck with skill.
If you do indeed cycle in excess of 10K a year without incident I hope it continues safely for you. I probably cover the same mileage but was hit very hard twice - once by a car that failed to yield at a roundabout ( what can you do?) and another time by a stolen car. Pure luck - 2 minutes earlier or later and I'd have been home safe. Anyway, safe home.

Rezident

Time wrote: »

The question of contributory negligence on behalf of those who have been killed must also be asked. It is highly likely that in some of these cases the accident was partially the fault of the cyclist, who due to the laws of physics will always come off worse, this is an oft stick to beat motorists with; the "they're killing us mantra".

The fact is though that if cyclists act in a manner that results in them being responsible for accidents that are fatal, then this need to be highlighted so we can all learn from it. We all know some motorists are bad, but we must also accept that a not insignificant number of cyclists act with flagrant disregard to their own safety and the law, especially in the city centre.

If we don't learn from the mistakes that are made by both sides, we'll never actually improve anything.

I don't know about the people who were killed (apart from one which I will not discuss out of respect for his family) but I know about myself. I cycle in on the N11 every day, in the cycle lane, in a straight line to town.

Without even taking any turns or leaving the cycle lane there are 2-3 vehicles a week (minimum) that will risk maybe hitting/killing me, just to make a left turn five seconds quicker. Five seconds, that's what your life is worth to them. They're safe in a car, you're on a bike, so F. you!

They absolutely MUST accelerate up past me and then cut me off and brake right in front of me - regardless of how fast I am going. It's insanely dangerous. It's a good thing guns are not legal in Ireland because there have been moments when this has happened (Foxrock church for example) when, if I had a gun, they would definitely deserve to be shot at for nearly killing me. That is how it feels. I have a baby son who has nearly become fatherless because of these worsethancnuts. Something must be done. I'm thinking anti-vehicle caltrops - arm cyclists with caltrops and dangerous drivers gets them in their wheels. There must be a deterrant. It's war, and they are killing us. That will get the Guards attention, since dead cyclists evidently do not.

Lumen

cajonlardo wrote: »

Grand so.

Tell the families of the 10 dead this year so far and we'll see how smug you feel. Don't make the mistake of confusing Luck with skill.
If you do indeed cycle in excess of 10K a year without incident I hope it continues safely for you. I probably cover the same mileage but was hit very hard twice - once by a car that failed to yield at a roundabout ( what can you do?) and another time by a stolen car. Pure luck - 2 minutes earlier or later and I'd have been home safe. Anyway, safe home.

I'm not smug. I'm saying that in my experience cycling is not dangerous and that I'm not going to carry around a camera for a year or so at a time to capture one incident.

You're the one leveraging dead people as a debating strategy whilst presumably knowing little or nothing of the circumstances of their deaths. Cop on.

MediaMan

I'm trying hard to understand why it is that whenever someone suggests that some cyclists might need to improve their awareness and behaviour on the road, as part of the overall solution to make the roads safer for themselves and others, they are accused of being anti-cyclist or being on a rant.

I'm as worked up as anyone about the treatment of cyclists on the road and the levels of death and injury that's happening. But to deny that cyclists as well as motorists have to up their game is missing seeing the whole picture, and missing seeing all the elements of the solution.

degsie

Total segregation of trucks/buses from cars, cars from cyclists and cyclists from pedestrians is the only way to stop the carnage.

Macy0161

Bearing in mind there haven't been inquests yet, a significant number of the deaths recently have been reported as cyclists being hit from behind by vehicles travelling in the same direction. How this points to anything other than the person driving the vehicle is beyond me!

ganmo

Rezident wrote: »

I don't know about the people who were killed (apart from one which I will not discuss out of respect for his family) but I know about myself. I cycle in on the N11 every day, in the cycle lane, in a straight line to town.

Without even taking any turns or leaving the cycle lane there are 2-3 vehicles a week (minimum) that will risk maybe hitting/killing me, just to make a left turn five seconds quicker. Five seconds, that's what your life is worth to them. They're safe in a car, you're on a bike, so F. you!

They absolutely MUST accelerate up past me and then cut me off and brake right in front of me - regardless of how fast I am going. It's insanely dangerous. It's a good thing guns are not legal in Ireland because there have been moments when this has happened (Foxrock church for example) when, if I had a gun, they would definitely deserve to be shot at for nearly killing me. That is how it feels. I have a baby son who has nearly become fatherless because of these worsethancnuts. Something must be done. I'm thinking anti-vehicle caltrops - arm cyclists with caltrops and dangerous drivers gets them in their wheels. There must be a deterrant. It's war, and they are killing us. That will get the Guards attention, since dead cyclists evidently do not.

ahh maybe you should educate yourself about the gun laws.
While your at it read section 9 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1990/act/12/enacted/en/print#sec9

jimmycrackcorm

Richard308 wrote:

As a cyclist I have to say we have to be more responsible. It's not always the cars fault and we have to be responsible for our own safety and actions also. I have seen so many poorly skilled cyclists, zero anticipation of danger, poor judgement. A single road death is too much. I've seen a close friend suffer a severe brain injury and debilitated for life. What's needed is more respect and carefulness by all road users. Take steps to reduce your risks. Use cycle ways where provided etc

I'm a cyclist who stops at the red lights I do see idiotic behaviour by cyclists buy my considered opinion is that it's not that different to seeing pedestrians crossing o Connell bridge as buses are turning right from Westmoreland street or the incessant cars running red lights. It's mostly a perception that cyclists are behaving dangerously when it's practically not. I consider those pedestrians being generous because I'm stopped every day watching them.

Nobody gives out about how dangerous it is for car drivers to run red lights, because nothing happens to them. Yet there's constant sniping at cyclists for going though them.

I'd be willing to put a bet though trust none of the cyclists killed this year so far were at fault.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

I've cycled something like 100,000km in the last ten years ish and the number of incidents I've had where I felt in real peril could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Same here. I cycle between 10,000km and 15,000km annually, including 5,000km (ish) of commuting in heavy traffic and I've only had a tiny number of genuine close calls. Videoing every cycle would be complete overkill.

flatface

The key is education. First for us, we need a clear understanding of the causes of recent deaths on Irish roads so we can focus on reducing those risks. At the moment without those facts even this community is not sure how to react and address cyclist deaths nevermind others not so cycle minded.

A good study into the causes, and how the deaths could be avoided is necessary. Following that we could work on a reaction for instance:

IF the 2 main causes are 1. 60% Cyclists on country roads obeying ROTR and hit by car, 2. 30% Left turning HGV - then all else is noise. It's not your Dublin commute, high viz, headphones or RLJ or whatever. Media and online discussion must be constantly brought back from the noise to the stat causes.

I would like to see some new RSA ads focused on the results. With my guesses above 1. Ads showing the main country road scenarios and facts making it very clear situations that drivers have caused to kill cyclists. 2. Showing a HGV turning left rolling over a dummy on a bicycle in a cyclelane. Ways to avoid putting yourself in this position.

In the absence of information, I apologise for my assumptions in my examples and hope to be clearly educated by the real stats ASAP.

Jawgap

Is it really as 'bad' as people make out?

......what I'm wondering is if bad driving, bad cycling or a failure to appreciate probabilities and causation are really the issue?

Personally, I think it's simply a function of more people cycling, more often and for over greater distances......meaning that cycling is - at least - as safe as it was last year, or any year of the last five.

I've not noticed or perceived cycling being less safe recently; certainly not around Dublin anyway.

Just because a headline number bounces up, it doesn't mean the activity has become more risky or more hazardous.

As for radical action? Annoying people will definitely garner attention but I doubt it will result in any meaningful change.

The only thing I'd like to see (apart from some infra-structure improvements) is more vigorous and persistent enforcement of existing road traffic legislation - if you think driver behaviour is the root cause of the issue then only when people feel that their licence is genuinely at risk will they modify their behaviour.

Tenzor07

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Same here. I cycle between 10,000km and 15,000km annually, including 5,000km (ish) of commuting in heavy traffic and I've only had a tiny number of genuine close calls. Videoing every cycle would be complete overkill.

Good for you, but it's always the one time you don't have a camera where an incident will occur where you'll be far better off for having a record of the incident, especially if it's a hit and run where you may end up badly injured...

I think they are a great idea, especially for someone who commutes a lot, 5k a year for example..

Macy0161

Jawgap wrote: »

Is it really as 'bad' as people make out?

......what I'm wondering is if bad driving, bad cycling or a failure to appreciate probabilities and causation are really the issue?

I don't think it's really as bad as some would make out, as someone who already cycles. But I think the headline figures do put people off from starting at the very least.

I have to say, as I mentioned in the earlier post, it's the rear enders that genuinely concern me. Putting yourself in a poor position is one thing, but just cycling on a road and someone coming up behind not looking?

Jawgap wrote: »

The only thing I'd like to see (apart from some infra-structure improvements) is more vigorous and persistent enforcement of existing road traffic legislation - if you think driver behaviour is the root cause of the issue then only when people feel that their licence is genuinely at risk will they modify their behaviour.

This is it. But look at the resistance to any enforcement. Just this morning, read comments on articles about the enforcement of the speed limit in the port tunnel.

Lumen

Out of idle curiosity I went to the RSA website, wondering what sort of advice they were giving. The information is not presented in a fashion that would persuade anyone to change their behaviour.

But I wonder whether people really go looking for advice anyway? I mean, we have a constant stream of threads moaning about how lethal cycling is (despite evidence to the contrary), but are there instances of people coming on this forum to start a thread of the sort "How do I stay alive?"? I can think of a couple, amongst thousands.

And boards is fun, sort of. It's certainly engaging. You get a personal response from a bunch of randomers! For your exact problem that's unique to you and cannot possibly be answered by a quick Google search! Lap it up snowflakes!

I think people just don't go seeking advice from strangers about road safety. Which set of wheels should I buy? Sure! How do I improve my skill? No way!

Maybe social media is the answer. Those 1.5m overtaking campaigns have certainly popped up a bit on my feeds. And judging by the response the "1.5" bit has certainly been taken on board, although a few people are still having problems with the units.

But then maybe that's because I am Facebook friends with a bunch of experienced cyclists.

Chips Lovell

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Good for you, but it's always the one time you don't have a camera where an incident will occur where you'll be far better off for having a record of the incident, especially if it's a hit and run where you may end up badly injured...

Going by that logic, I should also put a camera on the dashboard of my car or wear a bodycam any time I go for a late night kebab, lest some drunken eejit assault me.

The point is not that there is a risk of any of the above happening, but that the risk is so minute there's little point in recording everything.

Tenzor07

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Going by that logic, I should also put a camera on the dashboard of my car.

Yes, good idea also, I've done the same, will help provide any evidence to my insurer should an incident with another road user occur, and avoid any denial of liability against my favour...

Leroy42

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Going by that logic, I should also put a camera on the dashboard of my car or wear a bodycam any time I go for a late night kebab, lest some drunken eejit assault me.

The point is not that there is a risk of any of the above happening, but that the risk is so minute there's little point in recording everything.

True, but it's hardly a major inconvenience and cameras are relatively cheap these days. I use one and have found that if there is any incident the other party is normally more civil when I point out my camera.

Have I had many? no. A few dangerous events, mostly cars passing me on the right before breaking hard to make the next left, close passes etc.

Having the footage to hand means it doesn't become a he said/she said opinion piece. Does it make the driver apologise, well very rarely, but it means that I can, or possibly could, cut out most of the nonsense arguments that would be put forward by the driver if there was an accident. Things like "I came out of nowhere", "He was riding recklessly" etc.

I do agree though, that the constant talking about it does make the problem appear worse, IMO, than it actually is. In saying that, it only takes one instance to really scare the willies out of you on a bike as you are so exposed. But rather than shy away from cycling, people should seek out others to cycle with. Be that a cycle club or simply a few mates. It is easy for motorist to try to intimidate a single cyclist, much harder with a group of two of more. Sure you might still get the beeping and some abuse shouted at you, but it is invariably safer.

Harrybelafonte

Leroy42 wrote: »

I do agree though, that the constant talking about it does make the problem appear worse, IMO, than it actually is.

+1

mr spuckler

MediaMan wrote: »

I'm trying hard to understand why it is that whenever someone suggests that some cyclists might need to improve their awareness and behaviour on the road, as part of the overall solution to make the roads safer for themselves and others, they are accused of being anti-cyclist or being on a rant.

I'm as worked up as anyone about the treatment of cyclists on the road and the levels of death and injury that's happening. But to deny that cyclists as well as motorists have to up their game is missing seeing the whole picture, and missing seeing all the elements of the solution.

but i don't think that's what's happened, at least not here. we all agree that some cyclists could and should improve their behaviour but in general the debate is about trying to understand what's actually causing the incidents and address that. as has been stated multiple times (and using one example of poor cyclist behaviour) red light jumping by the cyclist is cited as a cause in a tiny number of collisions.
surveys of actual collisions have shown the majority to be primarily caused by the motorist.

so putting that stat together with the fact that in a collision the motorist is highly unlikely to be injured while the cyclist is highly likely to suffer serious injury, the conclusion is that much more focus needs to be placed on motorist behaviour than on the cyclists side in order to stop the worrying number of deaths.

if that trend changes or if we get findings from recent incidents that demonstrate the cyclist was considerably at fault then i can guarantee there will be a debate here as to how we can educate cyclists in general on these specific risks.

mr spuckler

Lumen wrote: »

Out of idle curiosity I went to the RSA website, wondering what sort of advice they were giving.

what was the line on rte news yesterday regarding the proposed MPDL? paraphrasing - "the RSA had no comment"

fat bloke

Jawgap wrote: »

Is it really as 'bad' as people make out?

Well, it's hard to argue with the bald figure of ten dead since Christmas. Sure, you can argue that statistically speaking the risk is low but, as an activity to encourage your kids to do (and I do - every day) when you think about it...

If ten people had died playing football, or Irish dancing. -Would I still be sending my kids out to participate?

Would I fcuk.

Macy0161

mr spuckler wrote: »

what was the line on rte news yesterday regarding the proposed MPDL? paraphrasing - "the RSA had no comment"

It was something along those lines, or "no opinion at this stage". No money in MPDL - missing a trick, as they could plaster it all over a builders hi viz vest!

Jawgap

fat bloke wrote: »

Well, it's hard to argue with the bald figure of ten dead since Christmas. Sure, you can argue that statistically speaking the risk is low but, as an activity to encourage your kids to do (and I do - every day) when you think about it...

If ten people had died playing football, or Irish dancing. -Would I still be sending my kids out to participate?

Would I fcuk.

Actually, it's very easy to argue with it.

These are, effectively, "Black Swan" events - they get attention and so they lodge in the mind.....

......or put it this way, ain't no one writing a headline that says "10,000 people cycled in Dublin today. No fatalities."

Btw, if you think just because no one dies on the GAA, soccer or rugby pitches of the country that somehow there's no danger, maybe think again......about 1 in 700 are genetically predisposed to SADS, and most of of those are neither detected nor screened before taking part in competitive sport, which has been associated with an increased risk of a SADS death occuring.

......and in the interests of transparency, my lads cycle (MTB'ers, unfortunately) and have played rugby since they were 7......

Chuchote

woody1 wrote: »

but nobody passes a runner or a walker that close, or someone on a horse or one of those sulky- horse and cart things .

This is worth pointing out to RSA and asking them to make an ad saying it?

uptherebels wrote: »

You want safer roads for cyclists the country needs a proper integrated public transport network. But due to successive governments kicking that can down the road for so long it is now at the stage that so much work needs to be done to achieve it, it will never happen.

The one thing that will make it happen is already on the go: many, many people getting out of cars and on to bikes.

And the Core Bus Corridors plan is (slowly) moving into action - this will mean a series of suburbs-to-town bus routes that are bus routes for the whole way, not stop-and-start gappy things like the current routes; and a series of orbital bus routes that circle the city and connect with the into-town ones.

ED E wrote: »

Monday 5th to Sunday 12th:

• Spot any motoring offence big or small that may in any way endanger cyclists
• Take registration plate if possible
• Lo Call 1890 205 805 (Save it in your phone now)

This will generate an influx of complaints to Castlebar which will then land on the desks of all the Supers.

Anyone willing?

I'm in. Is there an email address to send footage to?

PaulieC

Interestingly, Minister Ross is moving very quickly to bring in 'urgent' legislation to allow the 2023 Rugby World Cup bid go through.

If only dead cyclists were as important as sporting tournaments.

07Lapierre

fat bloke wrote: »

Well, it's hard to argue with the bald figure of ten dead since Christmas. Sure, you can argue that statistically speaking the risk is low but, as an activity to encourage your kids to do (and I do - every day) when you think about it...

If ten people had died playing football, or Irish dancing. -Would I still be sending my kids out to participate?

Would I fcuk.

Well, whatever you do, don't let your kids go to sleep!

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sudden-infant-death-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Cycling is SAFE.