Radical action for cycling safety attention.

Jawgap

07Lapierre wrote: »

Well, whatever you do, don't let your kids go to sleep!

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sudden-infant-death-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Cycling is SAFE.

Slightly off topic.......but it reminds me of being at a funeral when someone asked how the deceased died and the reply came, "peacefully, his wife came in and found him in his chair by the fire with a book in his lap......"

There followed a moment of quite reflection before someone said "That's it, I'm never reading again!!!!"

Jawgap

PaulieC wrote: »

Interestingly, Minister Ross is moving very quickly to bring in 'urgent' legislation to allow the 2023 Rugby World Cup bid go through.

If only dead cyclists were as important as sporting tournaments.

In fairness, legislation is not the answer - if it was we'd have no drink drivers.

There's boat loads of legislation - if anything allowing the government and the minister to 'get away' with just passing more legislation is letting them off easy.

The minister to criticise is Fitzgerald, she needs to be telling the Commissioner to ring the head of the Traffic Corps (when she finds her phone ) and get them out there and active.......and while the minister is at, she could throw a few shekels in their direction so they can expand the TC.

archer22

In fairness I don't think this should be made a them and us issue....there are many really good drivers out there who take great care passing cyclists and its only fair to give them credit.
The problem is the sizeable minority of ignorant c**ts who think the roads are their private property and they can do what they like on them without any consideration for others.
They pose a mortal threat to us cyclists and pedestrians and are one of the causes of higher insurance premiums for other drivers.
Its those that need to be sorted out and put off the roads for life for everyone's sake.

tomasrojo

On the subject of "you'll run out of luck eventually", that reminded me of the graph yesterday that showed Ireland with <10 deaths per 100 million km travelled. Presuming that still holds approximately, even a pretty frequent cyclist would struggle to get up to the, say, 13 million km mark (approximately average distance covered before one death) in several lifetimes. Even Jep and Lumen (say, 10000km per year) would take 1300 years to get up to that total.

So, yes, your luck might run out in this lifetime, but not very likely. Of course, if it does run out, it's unimaginably awful. But that's also true of walking everywhere.

greenspurs

No enforcement = No change .

Simple.

Thud

The RSA annual international road safety conference is on today might have been a good occasion to raise the cycling safety topic (Shane Ross is even there), main topic is drink driving this year.

Missed opportunity

Shedite27

2 thoughts on the actions.

The 1.5m has a onus on the cyclist too, can't pass on the inside of a vehicle unless there's 1.5m of space (that's half a bus width) for you to get through. Are you willing to stay behind that car unless there's 1.5m clearance?

On bike lanes, there's not going to be a bike lane on every road, so how far out of your way would you be willing to travel to stay on segregated bike lanes? If your commute is 8k, would you add another 2/3k to stay on segregated bike lanes?

MediaMan

Jawgap wrote: »

In fairness, legislation is not the answer - if it was we'd have no drink drivers.

In general, I agree, but there are some cases where it IS at least part of the answer. One of those cases is where the general public and law enforcement have an interpretation of an existing law which is not valid, because they are not familiar with the situation from the perspective of the person that the law is supposed to protect.

The vast majority of drivers and the Gardai believe that as long as a driver passes a cyclist without hitting them that they are leaving enough space as laid down in current legislation. The only way to address this delusion is to define that safe distance in an objective way.

I know that close passing is not the primary cause of cyclist deaths and injuries, but it is part of a general pattern of carelessness towards cyclists. That overall carelessness IS one of the major factors, I believe, and these things really do need to be addressed (edit: primarily by enforcement, but with legislation where needed).

magicbastarder

Thud wrote: »

main topic is drink driving this year.

there'll be some awkward silence from the garda contingent.

Grassey

Shedite27 wrote:

The 1.5m has a onus on the cyclist too, can't pass on the inside of a vehicle unless there's 1.5m of space (that's half a bus width) for you to get through. Are you willing to stay behind that car unless there's 1.5m clearance?

Is it not proposed to be 1m in <50km zones? If traffic is stationery then I'd expect cyclists could still filter.

Shedite27 wrote:

On bike lanes, there's not going to be a bike lane on every road, so how far out of your way would you be willing to travel to stay on segregated bike lanes? If your commute is 8k, would you add another 2/3k to stay on segregated bike lanes?

I currently do add 3k each way on my commute to make the use of wider roads and/or good off road cycle sections or empty bus lanes. It's quicker than navigating awkward pinch points and badly (for cyclists) designed junctions, or filtering across multiple lanes.

rubadub

Shedite27 wrote: »

The 1.5m has a onus on the cyclist too, can't pass on the inside of a vehicle unless there's 1.5m of space (that's half a bus width) for you to get through. Are you willing to stay behind that car unless there's 1.5m clearance?

I always give cars at least 1.5m of space if I am passing on the inside. I have seen far too many near misses were a reckless cyclist goes on the inside at up to 15km/hr leaving the poor motorist severly rattled as the resulting wind from the cyclists shakes his car so much that it risks it being hurtled into oncoming cars on the opposite lane.

Good to see all the other countries who have these laws or are proposing laws like this have also made it illegal for cyclists to do this.

mr spuckler

Shedite27 wrote: »

2 thoughts on the actions.

The 1.5m has a onus on the cyclist too, can't pass on the inside of a vehicle unless there's 1.5m of space (that's half a bus width) for you to get through. Are you willing to stay behind that car unless there's 1.5m clearance?

the purpose for the MPDL is to allow cyclists space in case they need to move out unexpectedly, as well as ensuring that a fast moving vehicle is not close to making contact with a much slower moving one.

when passing carefully on the left of a very slow moving or stationary vehicle, neither of these factors apply.

On bike lanes, there's not going to be a bike lane on every road, so how far out of your way would you be willing to travel to stay on segregated bike lanes? If your commute is 8k, would you add another 2/3k to stay on segregated bike lanes?

my direct commute is about 9.5k, i had upped that to 12k and now it's at 15k. partly for fitness reasons, moreso because it's just a much more pleasant route. i now completely avoid Amiens st and Westmoreland st / college green.

PaulieC

Jawgap wrote: »

In fairness, legislation is not the answer - if it was we'd have no drink drivers.

There's boat loads of legislation - if anything allowing the government and the minister to 'get away' with just passing more legislation is letting them off easy.

The minister to criticise is Fitzgerald, she needs to be telling the Commissioner to ring the head of the Traffic Corps (when she finds her phone ) and get them out there and active.......and while the minister is at, she could throw a few shekels in their direction so they can expand the TC.

It was more an observation of where the priorities of the government lie.

cajonlardo

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not smug. I'm saying that in my experience cycling is not dangerous and that I'm not going to carry around a camera for a year or so at a time to capture one incident.

You're the one leveraging dead people as a debating strategy whilst presumably knowing little or nothing of the circumstances of their deaths. Cop on.

Do you know what?

I have re-read your post that I replied to and accept fully that you were not being smug and that I had completely mis-read and misunderstood. I took it completely out of context and apologise.

Tenzor07

Shedite27 wrote: »

The 1.5m has a onus on the cyclist too, can't pass on the inside of a vehicle unless there's 1.5m of space (that's half a bus width) for you to get through. Are you willing to stay behind that car unless there's 1.5m clearance?

The MPD is for motor vehicles passing cyclists, and that's it, does not apply the other way around, just no logic to that at all!

Shedite27 wrote: »

On bike lanes, there's not going to be a bike lane on every road, so how far out of your way would you be willing to travel to stay on segregated bike lanes? If your commute is 8k, would you add another 2/3k to stay on segregated bike lanes?

Segregated cycle lanes should be as direct as roads, and by-pass traffic signals, junctions, driveways, bus stops etc..

Shedite27

mr spuckler wrote: »

the purpose for the MPDL is to allow cyclists space in case they need to move out unexpectedly, as well as ensuring that a fast moving vehicle is not close to making contact with a much slower moving one.

when passing carefully on the left of a very slow moving or stationary vehicle, neither of these factors apply.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The MPD is for motor vehicles passing cyclists, and that's it, does not apply the other way around, just no logic to that at all!

What if the bus has to move off while the cyclist is on the inside? Is the bus then illegal through no fault of its own?

I'd love the 1.5m rule, but think all road users have to respect it. I agree with other posters, I see far too many cyclists going up the inside of busses on my commute each day with far less than 1.5m - gives us all a bad name

ED E

A. We have lots of laws
B. There is near zero enforcement of said


Can we give the MPD concept a rest until the easily enforceable crimes are dealt with. If they're too close its already covered by many other pieces of the SI (due care and attention etc).

Shedite27

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Segregated cycle lanes should be as direct as roads, and by-pass traffic signals, junctions, driveways, bus stops etc..

Well they're never gonna be, my questions is how far you'd go out of your way.

For example coming into Dublin from Fairview, I could see a sceanrio in a few years where there'll be a segregated cycle path down over East Link, to meet the segregated track up the quays. Would add 2k to my commute versus going down the congested Amiens St/North Wall.

Be interesting to see how many would take it

rubadub

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'd love the 1.5m rule, but think all road users have to respect it.

still not sure if you are taking the piss. You would "love" the thought of all cyclists having to wait in a full on traffic jam simply because they "only" have 1.45m of which to over/undertake stationary cars on the inside?

Here is the draft law. It is 1m if under 50km/h, and 1.5m above

https://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2017/2217/b2217d.pdf

And reading that thankfully cyclists will be allowed go on the inside still, rather than the utterly ludicrous suggestion/scenario you are getting at. I was wondering if you really cycle at all, sounded more like a pissed off motorist doing this childish "but but but, they should have to do it too, why should I be the only one put out" -completely ignoring what the law actually set out to prevent.

And I expect if the law is passed and garda see cars passing at say 20km/h with "only" 0.9m clearance they would let them off, just as they would in your bus example.

Tenzor07

Shedite27 wrote: »

What if the bus has to move off while the cyclist is on the inside? Is the bus then illegal through no fault of its own?

I'd love the 1.5m rule, but think all road users have to respect it. I agree with other posters, I see far too many cyclists going up the inside of busses on my commute each day with far less than 1.5m - gives us all a bad name

You're still not understanding, think of it as a safe overtaking distance for motor vehicles passing out a bicyclist, 1m for urban areas and 1.5m Minimum outside this. So basically it defines driver behaviour around the bicyclist.

Tenzor07

Shedite27 wrote: »

Well they're never gonna be, my questions is how far you'd go out of your way.
For example coming into Dublin from Fairview, I could see a sceanrio in a few years where there'll be a segregated cycle path down over East Link, to meet the segregated track up the quays. Would add 2k to my commute versus going down the congested Amiens St/North Wall.
Be interesting to see how many would take it

If the cycle lane is of good quality, without obstacles, or junctions, driveways, side roads to navigate then yes, the longer route could be quicker..

magicbastarder

hands up here who goes the physically shortest route on their commute? i certainly don't.

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

hands up here who goes the physically shortest route on their commute? i certainly don't.

Avoid crappy right turns.

S. Goodspeed

Tougher laws and better enforcement would obviously be great but surely avoiding having someone's death on your hands is a big enough motivator??

All these deaths are incredibly sad but they should at least be used as educational material, tell motorists and cyclists exactly what happened and how that resulted in a death. All we get in the press is "a cyclist and car collided", never the details. And we never hear from the driver or how his / her life has been ruined. Maybe the latter might resonate more if they are too selfish to care about the cyclists' lives.

magicbastarder

prompted by the latest guff from FFers who regard cyclists as some sort of alien species, perhaps we need some sort of 'cyclist and proud of it' t-shirt campaign. kinda modelled on gay pride, as in the 'i'm a cyclist and i'm not going to apologise for myself or any of my ilk' approach.

how easy is it to get a custom cycling top design made? as in, manufactured, a good friend is a graphic designer.

cython

magicbastarder wrote: »

prompted by the latest guff from FFers who regard cyclists as some sort of alien species, perhaps we need some sort of 'cyclist and proud of it' t-shirt campaign. kinda modelled on gay pride, as in the 'i'm a cyclist and i'm not going to apologise for myself or any of my ilk' approach.

how easy is it to get a custom cycling top design made? as in, manufactured, a good friend is a graphic designer.

Marcofan is the agent in Ireland for Verge, and the boards kits are ordered through him, so worth dropping him a line. Otherwise Owayo (who have an online design tool) or Spin 11 are other companies that will do custom gear at I believe a reasonable price. Roca Sports are another option if you want to go higher end for Sportful/Castelli. Verge have no minimum order size, which is handy depending on how much interest you garnered.

There are various others such as Velo Revolution, Pactimo, etc. Just look around a few clubs for their gear suppliers to get ideas of companies!

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

prompted by the latest guff from FFers who regard cyclists as some sort of alien species, perhaps we need some sort of 'cyclist and proud of it' t-shirt campaign. kinda modelled on gay pride, as in the 'i'm a cyclist and i'm not going to apologise for myself or any of my ilk' approach.

how easy is it to get a custom cycling top design made? as in, manufactured, a good friend is a graphic designer.

"I'm a big wheel"?

magicbastarder

i was thinking of some play on the 'smug cyclist' theme.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was thinking of some play on the 'smug cyclist' theme.

Wouldn't wear that; it would simply irritate other people.

Macy0161

ED E wrote: »

A. We have lots of laws
B. There is near zero enforcement of said


Can we give the MPD concept a rest until the easily enforceable crimes are dealt with. If they're too close its already covered by many other pieces of the SI (due care and attention etc).

Anyone on the multitude of footage we've seen in the last year or so been actually done for a close pass? I'm not aware of any. A clear law makes bike cam footage actionable, and at the very least changes the perception that once you don't hit a cyclists "it's grand", which seems to be the opinion of the gardai as well as many people who drive.