Charge points at work

denismc

We have a single car charge point at work but nobody uses it yet.
But with the proliferation of electric cars in the next few years I can see problems where multiple users want to charge at a single charge point.
So does anyone have experience of sharing a charge point at work?

Soarer

It's just a bit of give and take.

By the time 3 or more people in your office have evs, you'll be upgrading/increasing the number of chargepoints.

man_no_plan

We have none so it could be worse!

Who pays for the electricity with this though? If you gad ten employees landing in to charge you'd use up dmdair power in a year.

Is there any charging system, money not electricity?

n97 mini

Up to the employer. Most don't charge, some do. It's usually a token amount though, and not based on electricity used (which is an even smaller amount).

Soarer

man_no_plan wrote: »

We have none so it could be worse!

Who pays for the electricity with this though? If you gad ten employees landing in to charge you'd use up dmdair power in a year.

Is there any charging system, money not electricity?

Wouldn't be much worse than a few dozen people using electric showers every day.

10 x 30kWh Leafs charging from 0-100% @ 15c per kWh = €45 per day x 5 days = €225 per week.

If you're a company that has at least 10 employees, and you can afford to install charge points to meet demand for same, I reckon €250 a week isn't going to break you.

man_no_plan

Soarer wrote: »

Wouldn't be much worse than a few dozen people using electric showers every day.

10 x 30kWh Leafs charging from 0-100% @ 15c per kWh = €45 per day x 5 days = €225 per week.

If you're a company that has at least 10 employees, and you can afford to install charge points to meet demand for same, I reckon €250 a week isn't going to break you.

Suppose so. Don't tell revenue, would be a benefit in kind I'm sure!

Public sector here so defo a non runner. Can you imaging the reaction on AH when they announce free charging in schools and hospitals for employees!

ELM327

Not a BIK liability per revenue.
I have work charging and it is free. Currently I am the only EV but as there are over 2000 employees I don't expect that to last!

Patser

The projected proliferation of EVs over the next few years is based a lot on new EVs coming onto the market with a much increased range, meaning it's less and less likely you'll need to charge at work.

The bigger issue in the future will be people using charge points - if free - as a money saver rather than necessity, especially if PHEVs enter the mix more. Imagine the debate between a 300km range Leaf owner wanting a free top up, an Outlander owner wanting batteries charged to not have to use ICE on way home and older Zoe/Twizy owner needing to get home at all.

Also same debate with management, I need a charge point because my new Tesla/Leaf/Zoe is down to about 75% charge so can easily make it home but I'd still like you to go through the expense of installing charge points, pay for my fuel and set aside parking spaces for a fluctuating number of users.

pwurple

man_no_plan wrote: »

Suppose so. Don't tell revenue, would be a benefit in kind I'm sure!

Public sector here so defo a non runner. Can you imaging the reaction on AH when they announce free charging in schools and hospitals for employees!

It's really way too small to be benefit in kind. It's about the price of a cup of tea. I've yet to see any place that provides tea and coffee to emplyees charging them BIK.

Public sector doesn't make a difference, there are electric charge points in the City hall in Cork, where the city council employees park for free. It was under that Drive4Zero initiative.

pwurple

OP, I visit different sites around Cork as part of my work. I drive electric, so I'm aware of chargers, and note their locations.

I've noticed a change this year alright... in previous years, there was generally at least one in the charging bank free when I arrived mid-morning, or afternoon. These days, they tend to be fully occupied. Staff (or security) notice the car, and they will often put me in touch with an employee intranet page, or email distribution group, or whatsapp group, where they might ask for a charge if they are stuck. Everyone has been co-operative and friendly in my experience.

Generally I charge at home, so I never actually NEED a work one. I'll take one if it's available, mainly because they are often nearer to the building than the visitor spots.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Not a BIK liability per revenue.
I have work charging and it is free. Currently I am the only EV but as there are over 2000 employees I don't expect that to last!

pwurple wrote: »

It's really way too small to be benefit in kind. It's about the price of a cup of tea. I've yet to see any place that provides tea and coffee to emplyees charging them BIK.

Public sector doesn't make a difference, there are electric charge points in the City hall in Cork, where the city council employees park for free. It was under that Drive4Zero initiative.

Technically it is a BIK as per revenue but the reality is its too small a BIK for revenue to go after it. A case of the law being there but not enforced... nothing new in that!

Hopefully the next budget will make a definitive statement about BIK for both company cars and for work charging and it will remove another inhibitor/excuse for companies to installing work chargers.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102732820&postcount=26

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Revenue confirmed it was due for BIK, the same as the coffee you get provided is due for BIK.

As my workplace has both, revenue confirmed that due to the minimal cost, we do not pay BIK on either. All above board.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103544776&postcount=261

Technically this is the answer from revenue that I received.

Soarer

So technically, if I charge my personal phone in work, I should pay BIK?

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

So technically, if I charge my personal phone in work, I should pay BIK?

I think that's what they say by the letter of the law, but in reality Revenue accept that small amounts are not pursued.

KCross

BIK has a broad definition of, any benefit you receive that is not required for your job is subject to BIK, so yes that would be a BIK but revenue aren't stupid so they don't chase the small stuff as the return on it would be less than the cost to chase it.

Revenue want thousands, not hundreds!

ELM327 got confirmation from his company that there is no BIK for them. Our company got a different answer and so did I when I asked revenue myself directly (as per my post above which shows revenues clear response). So, it seems to depend on who you talk to.

ELM327

Personally, i think when batteries get bigger and charging gets faster and the public charging is not free, we may have a different answer.

As it is now, there is one leaf (mine) taking 80-100 kWh per week. Even if the company pays domestic day rates of 17c per kWh, that's €17 per week. Hardly ground breaking. But what if there are a few Zoes that each take 22kWh per day and maybe a Tesla aswell. If the €17 per week becomes €170 or €1700 there may be more interest from Revenue. Especially if the public do not have access to free charging.

KCross

Come to think of it they followed up with me a week or so ago with this....



So, they seem to have this "incidental" definition so that tea/coffee/phone charging etc would not incur BIK but still stuck to the position that EV charging for free at work is taxable for BIK.

Again, I don't think its being enforced anywhere but my company is using it as an excuse not to install a charger so I hope revenue change their tune on that.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

As it is now, there is one leaf (mine) taking 80-100 kWh per week. Even if the company pays domestic day rates of 17c per kWh, that's €17 per week. Hardly ground breaking.

€17/wk for you isn't much but if you have 100s employees multiplied by 1000s of companies that €17/wk becomes very significant particularly since revenue have also lost your diesel tax!

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

So, they seem to have this "incidental" definition so that tea/coffee/phone charging etc would not incur BIK but still stuck to the position that EV charging for free at work is taxable for BIK.

Again, I don't think its being enforced anywhere but my company is using it as an excuse not to install a charger so I hope revenue change their tune on that.

So you could come in, have a shower in a company provided shower, eat the company provided cereal with company provided milk, eat 2 or 3 pieces of company provided fruit, drink 4 or 5 cups of company provided coffee, and charge your phone(s)/tablets, all as "incidental".
But put €4 of electricity into your car, and it's taxable?

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

So you could come in, have a shower in a company provided shower, eat the company provided cereal with company provided milk, eat 2 or 3 pieces of company provided fruit, drink 4 or 5 cups of company provided coffee, and charge your phone(s)/tablets, all as "incidental".
But put €4 of electricity into your car, and it's taxable?

Where do you work... sounds like a cool place!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Where do you work... sounds like a cool place!

Sounds exactly like my current place of work tbh.
Anything tech industry is generally at the forefront of providing employees with a lot of "fringe benefits". like EV charging.

Thats in my experience anyway, and I used to be based with a number of tech service companies doing site visits, so I have a good idea of the sector as a whole I believe.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Where do you work... sounds like a cool place!

Plus they're putting in a chargepoint for me without any mention of BIK! :P

BTW, I don't do any of the above. Others here do though. I'm trying to get company provided Coke Zero, but no joy so far! I mean, why should coffee drinkers reap all the rewards!

man_no_plan

Looks i opened a can of worms with my BIK comment

Gumbo

We have 6 now. Large local authority.
3 are dedicated to our eCar fleet and the other 3 are first come first served. Only 3 of us have an EV. They have 1 of the spots painted to restrict the parking to EV's and are extending the painting over the next few weeks so should have dedicated EV charging.

n97 mini

man_no_plan wrote: »

Suppose so. Don't tell revenue, would be a benefit in kind I'm sure!

Public sector here so defo a non runner. Can you imaging the reaction on AH when they announce free charging in schools and hospitals for employees!

As above. As the PS doesn't have to make a profit to survive it's more likely they'll install them.

Cookie_Monster

ELM327 wrote: »

As it is now, there is one leaf (mine) taking 80-100 kWh per week. Even if the company pays domestic day rates of 17c per kWh, that's €17 per week..

over 800 per year though, certainly within the Revenue's interest zone I would think, especially if they are looking across the board. You can be sure you'd be paying BIK on 17 of petrol a week claimed...

Anyway I don't see why people think it's acceptable to get free lecci but not free liquid fuel from the tax payer or their employer... They should be treated exactly the same when it comes to expenses / BIK / charging for it.

ted1

Soarer wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

So, they seem to have this "incidental" definition so that tea/coffee/phone charging etc would not incur BIK but still stuck to the position that EV charging for free at work is taxable for BIK.

Again, I don't think its being enforced anywhere but my company is using it as an excuse not to install a charger so I hope revenue change their tune on that.

So you could come in, have a shower in a company provided shower, eat the company provided cereal with company provided milk, eat 2 or 3 pieces of company provided fruit, drink 4 or 5 cups of company provided coffee, and charge your phone(s)/tablets, all as "incidental".
But put €4 of electricity into your car, and it's taxable?

Sounds like you may work in my place. 1 building ?

ted1

KCross wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

As it is now, there is one leaf (mine) taking 80-100 kWh per week. Even if the company pays domestic day rates of 17c per kWh, that's €17 per week. Hardly ground breaking.

€17/wk for you isn't much but if you have 100s employees multiplied by 1000s of companies that €17/wk becomes very significant particularly since revenue have also lost your diesel tax!

Are you getting free parking too, aren't they looking to tax that now too

Gumbo

n97 mini wrote: »

As above. As the PS doesn't have to make a profit to survive it's more likely they'll install them.

And rightly so. The PS is not there to make a profit. We are heading towards near zero buildings for 2020 and all public buildings have to adapt and provide these.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

Are you getting free parking too, aren't they looking to tax that now too

I breathed in a number of times at work, what's the BIK on that?
How far can they take this!

Soarer

ted1 wrote: »

Sounds like you may work in my place. 1 building ?

Not exactly.

I do frequent it occasionally, and it was actually the 1 building I was thinking of!

man_no_plan

n97 mini wrote: »

As above. As the PS doesn't have to make a profit to survive it's more likely they'll install them.

Ot doesn't make a profit but that doesn't mean that money should be wasted on paying for employees fuel.

If you are doing work charging and doing work related travel it would be hard to justify claiming mileage surely. I know that there is a wear and tear aspect but fuel costs would be a significant proportion of the rate I imagine.

Soarer

man_no_plan wrote: »

Ot doesn't make a profit but that doesn't mean that money should be wasted on paying for employees fuel.

If you are doing work charging and doing work related travel it would be hard to justify claiming mileage surely. I know that there is a wear and tear aspect but fuel costs would be a significant proportion of the rate I imagine.

That's the spirit.

God forbid Mr. Average Joe Soap gets to work the system and make/save a few quid.

Good ol' fashioned "if I can't have it, they can't have it" Irish begrudgery.

ELM327

Would you prefer to pay the hundreds of millions in EU fines if we don't increase the number of EV?

n97 mini

man_no_plan wrote: »

Ot doesn't make a profit but that doesn't mean that money should be wasted on paying for employees fuel.

If you are doing work charging and doing work related travel it would be hard to justify claiming mileage surely. I know that there is a wear and tear aspect but fuel costs would be a significant proportion of the rate I imagine.

Employees in any organisation that get free fuel shouldn't be able to claim the same level of mileage allowance as employees that don't. That's the theory but I don't think it's the practice yet. One can't help but get the impression very little thought has gone into EVs in general!

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Employees in any organisation that get free fuel shouldn't be able to claim the same level of mileage allowance as employees that don't. That's the theory but I don't think it's the practice yet. One can't help but get the impression very little thought has gone into EVs in general!

But EV "fuel" is free in the public domain currently aswell.

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

But EV "fuel" is free in the public domain currently aswell.

Certainly. I'm saying within one organisation where EV charge points are provided free to use then it's a nonsense that employees can claim "standard" mileage rates when driving on fuel their employer paid for already.

Is it the Department of Finance that sets the civil service rates (and private industry sort of follows)? They need to take the lead on this.

ELM327

But what I was saying was, the cost of fuel for an EV is already free/negligible.
The cost should be the miles covered and the associated degradation and loss of value in the car.

Soarer

n97 mini wrote: »

Certainly. I'm saying within one organisation where EV charge points are provided free to use then it's a nonsense that employees can claim "standard" mileage rates when driving on fuel their employer paid for already.

Is it the Department of Finance that sets the civil service rates (and private industry sort of follows)? They need to take the lead on this.

You're already on the lowest rate of mileage based on the engine size (0cc).

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

But what I was saying was, the cost of fuel for an EV is already free/negligible.
The cost should be the miles covered and the associated degradation and loss of value in the car.

Exactly.

If the chargepoints are made available to the public, I can't see how BIK can be charged, irrespective on how/where you drive afterwards.

Soarer

From the Revenue website....

Small benefits

Where an employer provides an employee/director with a small benefit* (that is, a benefit with a value not exceeding €500 (€250 up to 21st October 2015), PAYE and PRSI need not be applied to that benefit. This treatment does not apply to cash payments, which are taxable in full. No more than one such benefit given to an employee in a tax year will qualify for such treatment. Where a benefit exceeds the specified amount of €500 (€250 up to 21st October 2015) the full value of the benefit is to be subjected to PAYE and PRSI.

So €500 worth of electricity per year without BIK.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

From the Revenue website....

Small benefits

Where an employer provides an employee/director with a small benefit* (that is, a benefit with a value not exceeding €500 (€250 up to 21st October 2015), PAYE and PRSI need not be applied to that benefit. This treatment does not apply to cash payments, which are taxable in full. No more than one such benefit given to an employee in a tax year will qualify for such treatment. Where a benefit exceeds the specified amount of €500 (€250 up to 21st October 2015) the full value of the benefit is to be subjected to PAYE and PRSI.

So €500 worth of electricity per year without BIK.

Is that the issue though?
You don't get €500 in one charge. Its multiple €3 charges.

I think the idea of that gotcha in the criteria is that revenue don't want to be taxing small amounts. You get a single one-off tax free benefit that can be easily tracked/processed and thats it.

Gumbo

n97 mini wrote: »

Employees in any organisation that get free fuel shouldn't be able to claim the same level of mileage allowance as employees that don't. That's the theory but I don't think it's the practice yet. One can't help but get the impression very little thought has gone into EVs in general!

EV's are classed as 1.0L cars for mileage rates.
19c per km.

man_no_plan

kceire wrote: »

EV's are classed as 1.0L cars for mileage rates.
19c per km.

37c per km? New civil service rates since April.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it51.html

The circular letter from DPER sets out an interesting approach towards rewarding the use af smaller cars more favourably. Might be an interesting way to encourage ev uptake with those who travel for work.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2017/05.pdf

Gumbo

man_no_plan wrote: »

37c per km? New civil service rates since April.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it51.html

The circular letter from DPER sets out an interesting approach towards rewarding the use af smaller cars more favourably. Might be an interesting way to encourage ev uptake with those who travel for work.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2017/05.pdf

Forgot about that. They haven't been introduced in the LA as of yet.
The civil service adopted the new immediately though.

Small cost to cover the wear and tear on your car if using it for official business.

n97 mini

Wow, how times have changed. I was driving a 1.6L and getting 1.27 euro per mile. 350 mile round trip to Cork every week and subsistence on top.

Gumbo

n97 mini wrote: »

Wow, how times have changed. I was driving a 1.6L and getting 1.27 euro per mile. 350 mile round trip to Cork every week and subsistence on top.

If we travel outside the city boundary we have to use public transport. We get the price of the return train ticket only.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Is that the issue though?
You don't get €500 in one charge. Its multiple €3 charges.

If in one tax year you receive more than €500 of non-monetary benefit - exp. 100 charges each €3 and 5 Dunnes gift card for €50 each, it becomes taxable benefit of €550.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Wow, how times have changed. I was driving a 1.6L and getting 1.27 euro per mile. 350 mile round trip to Cork every week and subsistence on top.

+1

Back in the day untaxed civil service mileage rates were enough to pay for me driving my V8 BMW 7-series

n97 mini

kceire wrote: »

If we travel outside the city boundary we have to use public transport. We get the price of the return train ticket only.

That's fair enough. Lads in my office were flying (80 euro return Dublin to Cork) and claiming they were driving. I could never understand how that was allowed.

Gumbo

n97 mini wrote: »

That's fair enough. Lads in my office were flying (80 euro return Dublin to Cork) and claiming they were driving. I could never understand how that was allowed.

A previous generation I suppose.