Electric car popularity & the relationship with tax credits

J.pilkington

Interesting article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/electric-car-drops-out-of-favour-in-country-that-pioneered-renewable-energy-1.3105326

High level:
- In the fall of 2015, the government announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field.
- Sales in Denmark of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (ECV), which include plug-in hybrids, plunged 60.5 per cent in the first quarter of the year, note base point is only 5,300 cars (but as article notes this is still 2x what Italy sold last year.

Obviously there may be other facts impacting the sales number such as people waiting for the new telsa or another model / lack of supply of certain models / maybe even timing of people renewing cars, however the electric cars alliance themselves are blaming the tax.

What are peoples thoughts? Does an electric car have to be on par range and price wise with the ICE competitor before people are willing to convert?

grogi

J.pilkington wrote: »

Interesting article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/electric-car-drops-out-of-favour-in-country-that-pioneered-renewable-energy-1.3105326

High level:
- In the fall of 2015, the government announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field.
- Sales in Denmark of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (ECV), which include plug-in hybrids, plunged 60.5 per cent in the first quarter of the year, note base point is only 5,300 cars (but as article notes this is still 2x what Italy sold last year.

Obviously there may be other facts impacting the sales number such as people waiting for the new telsa or another model / lack of supply of certain models / maybe even timing of people renewing cars, however the electric cars alliance themselves are blaming the tax.

What are peoples thoughts? Does an electric car have to be on par range and price wise with the ICE competitor before people are willing to convert?

In general people will buy whatever they think is the cheapest.

Some will take an EV route because they are simply nicer cars even with a bit of premium, but very few individuals will choose EV out of the care for the environment or any other reason.

The government needs to put EV supporting infrastructure and then start to disincentive ICE cars, especially, diesels by gradually increasing VRT.

scooby77

Following on from this-what do people think is the future of state rebates/subsidies here?
Will existing measures (seai grant, vrt rebate) be maintained, decreased or even increased.
I suppose the free home charge point could be considered a state subsidy too-and it appears to have been extended on an ad hoc basis.
I think current rates will be maintained, though down the road I can see some decrease or new conditions if sales increase -or if there's an outcry over the state subsidising bmws and Mercedes! (Environmental concerns won't be an issue for those complainers -and sales of the 330e have increased notably-660% ytd! Source: beep beep)

goz83

I am surprised that Denmark made such a bad move. For a country with so much money in the coffers, I would have thougth they would continue to support the EV market and try to eliminate ICEs completely. I only hope other Governments learn from this mistake and are successful in maintaining confidence in the EV conversion. Unfortunately, Ireland usually follow the mistakes of others and so I suspect we soon will see the main subsidies removed. Trump will be chuckling away in his chair reading the papers.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

I am surprised that Denmark made such a bad move. For a country with so much money in the coffers, I would have thougth they would continue to support the EV market and try to eliminate ICEs completely. I only hope other Governments learn from this mistake and are successful in maintaining confidence in the EV conversion. Unfortunately, Ireland usually follow the mistakes of others and so I suspect we soon will see the main subsidies removed. Trump will be chuckling away in his chair reading the papers.

At some point the EV has to be able to stand on its own four wheels. It cannot keep the unsustainable subsidy it has indefinitely.

In any case, many people post here say that the EV is perfectly adequate as it stands and it's far superior to ICE therefore it doesn't need subsidy any more.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

At some point the EV has to be able to stand on its own four wheels. It cannot keep the unsustainable subsidy it has indefinitely.

Absolutely it has to stand on its own 4 wheels... eventually.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

In any case, many people post here say that the EV is perfectly adequate as it stands and it's far superior to ICE therefore it doesn't need subsidy any more.

I suppose thats personal opinion. I would agree its superior to ICE but it still needs the subsidy until there is a tipping point. Remove the subsidies now they become too expensive and they die.

As more of them are bought (with subsidy) the manufacturers will get a better return on their investment and economies of scale start to kick in and in turn brings the price down along with improvements in the tech (primarily drop in battery manufacturing costs).

Its a cycle and its a new market that needs a leg up until it can stand on its own 4 wheels... we are not there yet though.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

At some point the EV has to be able to stand on its own four wheels. It cannot keep the unsustainable subsidy it has indefinitely.

In any case, many people post here say that the EV is perfectly adequate as it stands and it's far superior to ICE therefore it doesn't need subsidy any more.

The benefits for the society are so substantial that I would support the everlasting subsidy.

When something goes wrong, you cannot take the DPF out of an EV. You cannot blank EGR in an EV. Lambda will not go out and the air filter will not clog... There is very little that can go wrong with an EV that will make it a mobile chemical bomb. And as such it should be promoted, even if it is more expensive on its own.

n97 mini

Removal of subsidies could be compensated for with VRT reductions. Would help sales of Teslas and the like.

BloodBath

Far too early to be dropping subsidies. I'd argue that until EV's become the majority they should be subsidised and every country should be putting targets in place for full conversion to EV within 20 years. A handful of countries already have.

The benefits are huge. Massively reduced pollution globally and especially in highly populated urban areas. Reduced noise pollution and reduced dependency on fossil fuels. I'm sure it goes a long way to meeting the Paris Agreement as well.

I reckon there would be huge savings on healthcare as well as there would be a lot less car pollution related illnesses of which there are many. It is estimated that 7 million people die annually from air pollution the majority of which comes from vehicles.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

Absolutely it has to stand on its own 4 wheels... eventually.




I suppose thats personal opinion. I would agree its superior to ICE but it still needs the subsidy until there is a tipping point. Remove the subsidies now they become too expensive and they die.

As more of them are bought (with subsidy) the manufacturers will get a better return on their investment and economies of scale start to kick in and in turn brings the price down along with improvements in the tech (primarily drop in battery manufacturing costs).

Its a cycle and its a new market that needs a leg up until it can stand on its own 4 wheels... we are not there yet though.

If it's superior it should survive and thrive in the market without intervention. It's either an inferior product that needs help or a superior one that doesn't.

EV owners here are always asking for more more freebies "to encourage uptake" like using bus lanes or reducing motor tax to zero. In other words asking for more subsidy for themselves.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's superior it should survive and thrive in the market without intervention. It's either an inferior product that needs help or a superior one that doesn't.

It's a superior product at an inferior pricepoint. IMO

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV owners here are always asking for more more freebies "to encourage uptake" like using bus lanes or reducing motor tax to zero. In other words asking for more subsidy for themselves.

What EV do you own again? If you had more incentive to change like the ones above it would be a push to change. And if not for you, perhaps for others.

Remember that the current EV owners are the guinea pigs testing the beta network and cars for free. They(we) should expect some remuneration - fiscal and/or other - as compensation.

oppenheimer1

BloodBath wrote: »

I reckon there would be huge savings on healthcare as well as there would be a lot less car pollution related illnesses of which there are many. It is estimated that 7 million people die annually from air pollution the majority of which comes from vehicles.

Can you identify even one person who died because of diesel related air pollution in Ireland?

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Can you identify even one person who died because of diesel related air pollution in Ireland?

Are you actually serious right now?

Are you a time travelling green party TD from 2010?

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

What EV do you own again? If you had more incentive to change like the ones above it would be a push to change. And if not for you, perhaps for others.

Remember that the current EV owners are the guinea pigs testing the beta network and cars for free. They(we) should expect some remuneration - fiscal and/or other - as compensation.

If subsidy is maintained them there is no incentive for manufacturers to continue to reduce cost. They'll just pocket the subsidy and say thank you very much.

The removal of subsidy and replacement with equitable taxes is necessary. I would agree that it is too early as the product is not good enough yet to survive in the market without assistance.

damienirel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's superior it should survive and thrive in the market without intervention. It's either an inferior product that needs help or a superior one that doesn't.

EV owners here are always asking for more more freebies "to encourage uptake" like using bus lanes or reducing motor tax to zero. In other words asking for more subsidy for themselves.

EVs need to improve a lot from what I've been reading...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/10/25/why-consumer-reports-rips-tesla-lousy-reliability/92712118/

People who average 20000kms a year or more - I don't see them rushing out to buy EVs. It's fashionable at the moment - products need time to evolve before jumping on a bandwagon, and spending hard earned heavily taxed money on junk.

radharc

A rarely spoken about current tax saving is that businesses can claim back VAT on diesel. If this were to be removed at the same time as EVs were allowed to have the same BIK treatment as company vans there would be a huge surge in company cars going electric.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's superior it should survive and thrive in the market without intervention. It's either an inferior product that needs help or a superior one that doesn't.

EV owners here are always asking for more more freebies "to encourage uptake" like using bus lanes or reducing motor tax to zero. In other words asking for more subsidy for themselves.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If subsidy is maintained them there is no incentive for manufacturers to continue to reduce cost. They'll just pocket the subsidy and say thank you very much.

The removal of subsidy and replacement with equitable taxes is necessary. I would agree that it is too early as the product is not good enough yet to survive in the market without assistance.

Change sides much?

ELM327

damienirel wrote: »

EVs need to improve a lot from what I've been reading...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/10/25/why-consumer-reports-rips-tesla-lousy-reliability/92712118/

People who average 20000kms a year or more - I don't see them rushing out to buy EVs. It's fashionable at the moment - products need time to evolve before jumping on a bandwagon, and spending hard earned heavily taxed money on junk.

try 60k km in my case. And i'm not the only one.

oppenheimer1

radharc wrote: »

A rarely spoken about current tax saving is that businesses can claim back VAT on diesel. If this were to be removed at the same time as EVs were allowed to have the same BIK treatment as company vans there would be a huge surge in company cars going electric.

I doubt it. EVs don't have the range for business use yet. Whatever about point to point commuting, with traveling defined distances, company cars are work horses that spend their life on the road.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I doubt it. EVs don't have the range for business use yet. Whatever about point to point commuting, with traveling defined distances, company cars are work horses that spend their life on the road.

Search C+C taxis in the UK.

vandriver

It's Autumn.

That is all.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Change sides much?

No. You either believe it's good enough to compete or it's not.

I have said here and elsewhere that the EV is nowhere near good enough - therefore subsidy should continue, although I think it's too high. There definitely should be some element of per km charging at present (perhaps via odometer value submission) for EVs as you have people excessively driving them, contributing to congestion, because of their low cost, tax free, status.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No. You either believe it's good enough to compete or it's not.

I have said here and elsewhere that the EV is nowhere near good enough - therefore subsidy should continue, although I think it's too high. There definitely should be some element of per km charging at present (perhaps via odometer value submission) for EVs as you have people excessively driving them, contributing to congestion, because of their low cost, tax free, status.

So you think people are buying and driving EVs just for the hell of it? That'd they're driving around in congestion just because they didn't pay VRT or that they got free electricity?
Do you not think that all these EV drivers would be driving normal ICE cars if they didn't buy their EV?
Or are you of the opinion that all Leaf drivers had no requirement for their car, and they're driving it out of smugness?

Because if you don't believe in those questions, then the part in bold you typed is misguided drivel.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's superior it should survive and thrive in the market without intervention. It's either an inferior product that needs help or a superior one that doesn't.

Are you against every subsidy ever given then? Are there no circumstances under which the govt should subsidise something? Should subsidies for public transport be removed... let the market decide everything?!

I'd argue its not a black or white decision of inferior/superior. Its what is, on balance, the right thing to do. Obviously the govt shouldn't subsidise something that has no hope of surviving. The subsidy is to encourage uptake and once you hit a critical mass the market will take over and the subsidies will be removed.

EV's are just too expensive without the subsidy.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV owners here are always asking for more more freebies "to encourage uptake" like using bus lanes or reducing motor tax to zero. In other words asking for more subsidy for themselves.

any/all subsidies should be removed once X number of EV's are on the road. Its not an ever ending subsidy. Its just a short term thing to get people to move at this early adoption phase.

I don't think its current owners looking for more for themselves. I think thats an unfair characterisation of the discussions here.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If subsidy is maintained them there is no incentive for manufacturers to continue to reduce cost. They'll just pocket the subsidy and say thank you very much.

I don't think thats happening though. Nissan overall have lost money on the Leaf to date.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The removal of subsidy and replacement with equitable taxes is necessary. I would agree that it is too early as the product is not good enough yet to survive in the market without assistance.

I'd agree, subsidy should be removed once the market is functioning on its own. We need lots more choice of EV's and people need to believe in EV's. They don't at present even though nearly everyone that has one loves them.

300km real world range will hopefully bring the majority on board.

damienirel wrote: »

EVs need to improve a lot from what I've been reading...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/10/25/why-consumer-reports-rips-tesla-lousy-reliability/92712118/

People who average 20000kms a year or more - I don't see them rushing out to buy EVs. It's fashionable at the moment - products need time to evolve before jumping on a bandwagon, and spending hard earned heavily taxed money on junk.

EV's primarily need to improve their range. One article showing a quality issue with doors on one model doesn't means they all have those issues or all have quality issues.... far from it. Range is the primary improvement required.

A lot of the EV drivers on this forum are doing high mileage in them (30-60k kms/yr) but it has to fit your usage profile. If you are doing a lot of long distance every day then its not suitable. I do 30k km/yr and its all home charging and nearly all within the range of the car so there is little or no compromise involved in owning the car and saving a fortune in fuel.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

So you think people are buying and driving EVs just for the hell of it? That'd they're driving around in congestion just because they didn't pay VRT or that they got free electricity?
Do you not think that all these EV drivers would be driving normal ICE cars if they didn't buy their EV?
Or are you of the opinion that all Leaf drivers had no requirement for their car, and they're driving it out of smugness?


Because if you don't believe in those questions, then the part in bold you typed is misguided drivel.

No, what I'm arguing is that when you reduce the cost of a behaviour it leads to more of that behaviour. The phenomenon is called trip generation and is well understood in transport engineering and economics.

You'll see it in the other thread where a poster is asking if an EV is suitable for them. That poster said they didn't make a weekend trip to Dublin because it would have cost E50 in fuel but would have in an EV. Other posters have said that they use their car more because the cost is so low and that their mileage has increased considerably since getting their EV.

Perhaps you should consider editing your drivel above.

damienirel

KCross wrote: »

EV's primarily need to improve their range.

- Range is great in a top spec tesla - but why would I buy one, when I can buy a far more reliable german diesel luxury car?

KCross wrote: »

A lot of the EV drivers on this forum are doing high mileage in them (30-60k kms/yr) but it has to fit your usage profile.

How do you do that? If you don't have a top spec tesla? Spend your day driving from charging point to charging point? I don't see a lot of EV drivers putting over 20k kms on a car a year because of the weird usage profile you're talking about.

Diesel is a seriously undervalued technology by the media and fashionistas.
I don't see the move to EV being as faced paced as the aforementioned would have you believe.

grogi

damienirel wrote: »

Diesel is a seriously undervalued technology by the media and fashionistas.

That's some quality trolling here...

damienirel

grogi wrote: »

That's some quality trolling here...

"fashionistas" was a bit OTT but seriously I didn't mean to appear to be trolling!

BloodBath

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Can you identify even one person who died because of diesel related air pollution in Ireland?

That's a stupid question in fairness. There have been many studies with autopsies showing particulates in tissue and organs including the brain. A lot of this particulate matter is coming from vehicles. It's an accumulation over a lifetime. I don't have to really tell you that vehicle exhaust is highly toxic. Do I?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If subsidy is maintained them there is no incentive for manufacturers to continue to reduce cost. They'll just pocket the subsidy and say thank you very much.

The removal of subsidy and replacement with equitable taxes is necessary. I would agree that it is too early as the product is not good enough yet to survive in the market without assistance.

Subsidy is required until the economy of scale kicks in. The market for EV's is still relatively small. This increases manufacturing costs which creates a larger barrier to entry.

damienirel wrote: »

EVs need to improve a lot from what I've been reading...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/10/25/why-consumer-reports-rips-tesla-lousy-reliability/92712118/

People who average 20000kms a year or more - I don't see them rushing out to buy EVs. It's fashionable at the moment - products need time to evolve before jumping on a bandwagon, and spending hard earned heavily taxed money on junk.

A design flaw with a door on the model X hardly equates to a problem with EV's.

KCross

damienirel wrote: »

- Range is great in a top spec tesla - but why would I buy one, when I can buy a far more reliable german diesel luxury car?

German diesels are far more reliable? Questionable.
I've had my share of them and not that impressed and as emissions controls have ramped up over the last decade reliability and repair costs have got worse.

The Tesla's are still just too expensive though.... €83k for a base model. The Model 3 is supposed to complete with the 3-series BMW. We'll have to see how that works out.

damienirel wrote: »

How do you do that? If you don't have a top spec tesla? Spend your day driving from charging point to charging point? I don't see a lot of EV drivers putting over 20k kms on a car a year because of the weird usage profile you're talking about.

Weird usage profile? Nothing weird about it at all. I'd say I'm fairly common in that regard. I've a 60km round trip daily commute and the usual kids taxi service in the evening and weekends. Its 99% done on home charging. I rarely use charge points so I'm not going from charge point to charge point at all. The car is capable of doing it all from the full overnight charge.... this is the piece that is lost on the general public!!!

There is an incessant focus on the cars range but they ignore what their actual daily requirements are and that the car is 100% charged every morning. They then look at there diesel with 600km's of range on a full tank and think that they couldn't possibly survive in a 120-200km range car.

damienirel wrote: »

Diesel is a seriously undervalued technology by the media and fashionistas.

I don't really know what that means. Why is it undervalued? What redeeming quality does diesel have?

damienirel wrote: »

I don't see the move to EV being as faced paced as the aforementioned would have you believe.

I'm in agreement with you here. I don't think it will be as fast paced either. Manufacturing capability doesn't appear to be there.

ELM327

damienirel wrote: »

-

How do you do that? If you don't have a top spec tesla? Spend your day driving from charging point to charging point? I don't see a lot of EV drivers putting over 20k kms on a car a year because of the weird usage profile you're talking about.

.

55km to work, charge at work, 55km home, few trips in the evening.
140km round trip saturday and sunday, with a 10 min FCP stop each day.
I can probably do the trip at 75/80km/h without using an FCP at all but why should I when it's free and I wouldnt mind a coffee anyway.

damienirel

KCross wrote: »

Weird usage profile? Nothing weird about it at all. I'd say I'm fairly common in that regard. I've a 60km round trip daily commute and the usual kids taxi service in the evening and weekends. Its 99% done on home charging. I rarely use charge points so I'm not going from charge point to charge point at all. The car is capable of doing it all from the full overnight charge.... this is the piece that is lost on the general public!!!

20k kms plus is what I was talking about. Anyways where will your car be in couple of years with a crapped out battery, and you've got to fork out a couple of grand to replace it - or buy a new improved EV 2.0.

Diesel has evolved over the years - and time has improved it, efficiency, reliability, performance etc.
The whole BS on emissions could easily be solved if we used ammonia but for some reason that's seen as a major inconvenience to have to fill another tank or cartridge - as opposed to electric that we've got to remember to plug in every night.

grogi

damienirel wrote: »

20k kms plus is what I was talking about. Anyways where will your car be in couple of years with a crapped out battery, and you've got to fork out a couple of grand to replace it.

I think your statements have no base in facts...

There is no significant degradation of battery performance visible in cars from 2013 over 100kkm.
The earlier generation of Leafs, 2011-2013, uses older batteries and they degrade much faster - around 20% per 100kkm.

damienirel wrote: »

Diesel has evolved over the years - and time has improved it, efficiency, reliability, performance etc.

Of course it has. But it is reaching the limits - you cannot simultanously reduce the NOx and PM emission and maintain the reliability and serviceability at the same time.

Diesel is going away and no new diesels will be sold in ten years from now. Simply accept it.

ELM327

damienirel wrote: »

20k kms plus is what I was talking about. Anyways where will your car be in couple of years with a crapped out battery, and you've got to fork out a couple of grand to replace it - or buy a new improved EV 2.0.

Diesel has evolved over the years - and time has improved it, efficiency, reliability, performance etc.
The whole BS on emissions could easily be solved if we used ammonia but for some reason that's seen as a major inconvenience to have to fill another tank or cartridge - as opposed to electric that we've got to remember to plug in every night.

:rolleyes:

stesaurus

damienirel wrote: »

20k kms plus is what I was talking about. Anyways where will your car be in couple of years with a crapped out battery, and you've got to fork out a couple of grand to replace it - or buy a new improved EV 2.0.

Diesel has evolved over the years - and time has improved it, efficiency, reliability, performance etc.
The whole BS on emissions could easily be solved if we used ammonia but for some reason that's seen as a major inconvenience to have to fill another tank or cartridge - as opposed to electric that we've got to remember to plug in every night.

You don't think having yet another fluid tank to monitor, source/purchase and topup is an inconvenience but somehow plugging something in is? Clearly on a wind up here

KCross

damienirel wrote: »

20k kms plus is what I was talking about.

I know, I do 30k km/yr as do many others on this forum and I re-iterate I do not hop from charger to charger, its nearly all home charger.

damienirel wrote: »

Anyways where will your car be in couple of years with a crapped out battery, and you've got to fork out a couple of grand to replace it - or buy a new improved EV 2.0.

Whats that based on? Its one of the myths out there that the batteries go to sh*t. They don't. EV batteries don't degrade like your laptop and phone batteries.

You also don't have to replace the entire battery. You can replace modules. As EV's become more popular this will become more common place and cheaper to do.

damienirel wrote: »

Diesel has evolved over the years - and time has improved it, efficiency, reliability, performance etc.

It has improved but its still very poor in relation to reliability and emissions and VW diesel gate hasn't helped its cause at all. Its on its last legs now with some cities outright banning it in the near future.

Do you think diesel has got more reliable recently? DPF's, dual mass flywheels, EGR valves etc etc.... not at all reliable in my experience and none are easy/cheap fixes.

There is a thread full of people in the motors forum who applied the VW fix and their EGR's valves have crapped out within weeks of it!

damienirel wrote: »

The whole BS on emissions could easily be solved if we used ammonia but for some reason that's seen as a major inconvenience to have to fill another tank or cartridge - as opposed to electric that we've got to remember to plug in every night.

Isn't that like AdBlue. Another tank that has to be filled. Its a sticking plaster solution. Its just a dirty fuel.

I don't find the plugging in an issue. If you have a smartphone you probably plug that in every night or so. The car is no more difficult than that.... 30secs of your day.

I think you are probably one of those that will be last to change to EV?

damienirel

If you think you'll be driving around in 10 years time in an EV that you bought this year with an original battery and 200k miles on the clock. Talk to me then bunch of believers!!

ELM327

damienirel wrote: »

If you think you'll be driving around in 10 years time in an EV that you bought this year with an original battery and 200k miles on the clock. Talk to me then bunch of believers!!

Quoted for posterity.

isnottheword

damienirel wrote: »

If you think you'll be driving around in 10 years time in an EV that you bought this year with an original battery and 200k miles on the clock. Talk to me then bunch of believers!!

I'm a few km off 100,000KM - and all 12 bars still intact. You seem to have missed that part where someone further up pointed out to you that modules can be swapped out. How much does it cost in servicing a diesel each year? How much does it cost to replace an engine? How much does it cost to replace a timing belt/water pump.

I do heavy mileage and used to spend a fortune on servicing. I have not spent a bean in the past 10 months on servicing and save €160 with every passing month on fuel savings alone.

What's the value of your diesel at the 10 year mark? The basis of your argument has no foundation....if there's even any point to it at all.

stesaurus

damienirel wrote: »

If you think you'll be driving around in 10 years time in an EV that you bought this year with an original battery and 200k miles on the clock. Talk to me then bunch of believers!!

Ah here, school holidays started already?

ELM327

isnottheword wrote: »

I'm a few km off 100,000KM - and all 12 bars sill intact. You seem to have missed that part where someone further up pointed out to you that modules can be swapped out. How much does it cost in servicing a diesel each year? How much does it cost to replace an engine? How much does it cost to replace a timing belt/water pump.

I do heavy mileage and used to spend a fortune on servicing. I have not spent a bean in the past 10 months on servicing and save €160 with every passing month on fuel savings alone.

What's the value of your diesel at the 10 year mark? The basis of your argument has no foundation....if there's even any point to it at all.

You're in a similar boat to myself.

damienirel

ELM327 wrote: »

Quoted for posterity.

What do I expect jumping into an EV fourum harping on about how good diesels are! Well happy with mine a 13 year old Audi with 200k miles on the clock, and still drives beautifully. Mechanic reckons there's another 200k miles in it.

KCross

damienirel wrote: »

What do I expect jumping into an EV fourum harping on about how good diesels are! Well happy with mine a 13 year old Audi with 200k miles on the clock, and still drives beautifully. Mechanic reckons there's another 200k miles in it.

You might actually be OK with that one.... its probably before all the DPF, AdBlue, EGR valve stuff?

The stuff coming out the back aint good though!

damienirel

KCross wrote: »

You might actually be OK with that one.... its probably before all the DPF, AdBlue, EGR valve stuff?

The stuff coming out the back aint good though!

Save the planet folks in the EU were the cause of that still don't understand why they were so fussed about co2 when the NOX is the one they should have focused on. Hence the reason everybody is back driving smaller engined diesels that are less efficient but have more dependence on turbo if you actually want to move. And dpfs that cause hassle. Yeah sticking with my old car for as long as I can - new stuff doesn't appeal.

Soarer

damienirel wrote: »

What do I expect jumping into an EV fourum harping on about how good diesels are! Well happy with mine a 13 year old Audi with 200k miles on the clock, and still drives beautifully. Mechanic reckons there's another 200k miles in it.

You're entitled to your opinion on diesels, even in the EV forum.

But don't be poo-pooing EVs when you're clearly not up to speed with the technology.

As for your 13 year old diesel Audi, how much do you reckon you'll spend on tax, maintenance, and fuel to keep it on the road in that time? Say it'll take another 13 years to get the extra 200k on her....
Tax @ €670 per year = €8710
Maintenance @ €100 minimum = €1300
Fuel @ €1.20 per litre and 60mpg (neither of which you're getting) = €18158
Total minimum over 13 years = €28,168

Same in an EV...
Tax @ €120 = €1560
Maintenance @ €100 per year (not required) = €1300
Fuel @ 17.17c per kWh (high rate inc. vat and no free public) and 15kWh per 60 miles (which is flat out everywhere) = €8585
Total maximum over 13 years = €11445

Minimum Difference = €16723

And that's an ultra conservative figure highly skewed in your favour.

So if it's ok with you, I'll keep believing.

ELM327

I'm no save the planet person. I just like to embrace new tech that works for me. Especially any that saves me money!!

I've owned german and american v8s in the past, so I'm not a "non-car" guy like some EV owners are. Heck at the moment I have two 90's diesels in my garage in various states of repair. A Peugeot 405 and a Toyota Corona. But the EV is still cheaper to run than either of these. Have you tried to do 3-5k km per month in either of those? lol.

damienirel

isnottheword wrote: »

I'm a few km off 100,000KM - and all 12 bars still intact. You seem to have missed that part where someone further up pointed out to you that modules can be swapped out. How much does it cost in servicing a diesel each year? How much does it cost to replace an engine? How much does it cost to replace a timing belt/water pump.

I do heavy mileage and used to spend a fortune on servicing. I have not spent a bean in the past 10 months on servicing and save €160 with every passing month on fuel savings alone.

What's the value of your diesel at the 10 year mark? The basis of your argument has no foundation....if there's even any point to it at all.

Happy you think that this module replacement idea is the answer to your battery crapping out on you. Hope it's as cheap as you think it's going to be. All in the future, so all predictions - not fact.
I have had a diesel for 13 years cost 120 euros a service - never gave me even the smallest amount of trouble outside of suspension problems. No water pump replacement no dpf - nothing. Electric window stopped working when the cable inside broke. Not one engine problem and I've 200k miles on it.

Soarer

damienirel wrote: »

Happy you think that this module replacement idea is the answer to your battery crapping out on you. Hope it's as cheap as you think it's going to be. All in the future, so all predictions - not fact.
I have had a diesel for 13 years cost 120 euros a service - never gave me even the smallest amount of trouble outside of suspension problems. No water pump replacement no dpf - nothing. Electric window stopped working when the cable inside broke. Not one engine problem and I've 200k miles on it.

Congratualtions.

Just so you know, Nissan currently charge ?5000 to swap your existing Leaf battery for a brand spanking new one. That's the very worst case scenario.
So I don't know why you're so afraid of a battery clapping out.

Plus, the battery doesn't just clap out. It degrades over time. It's not like, oh I don't know, a timing belt slipping on a car with 30k miles on it...which happened to us!

ELM327

I don't know where this "crapping out" comes.
I've only lost 6% after 80k km. If we pro rate that out, I'll have lost just over a third (37%) of the battery at 500k km.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't know where this "crapping out" comes.
I've only lost 6% after 80k km. If we pro rate that out, I'll have lost just over a third (37%) of the battery at 500k km.

I've lost around 20% after 150k kms, and my range is about 100kms.

So I can keep going for many more thousands of kilometres until my range drops below 30kms. At that stage, the car will no longer suit my needs. But at roughly 15k kms per year, I think I'll be long after giving up on the car before the battery "craps out" on me.

KCross

damienirel wrote: »

Happy you think that this module replacement idea is the answer to your battery crapping out on you. Hope it's as cheap as you think it's going to be. All in the future, so all predictions - not fact.

Maintenance can't be predicted on diesel cars either but the fact is there is significantly less to go wrong on an EV as it has so few moving parts. Thats a fact, and the less moving parts the more reliable it will be(on average).


It is currently possible to replace battery modules so the costs are known, but its not common to require it. As the cars age it will become common the same as any after market parts and hence costs will go down, not up.

I remember someone on here posting that out of 30,000 Leaf's sold in Europe they have only replaced 4 batteries. I wonder would diesel engines(and include the gearbox and all the other exhaust related stuff) have the same reliability?

damienirel wrote: »

I have had a diesel for 13 years cost 120 euros a service - never gave me even the smallest amount of trouble outside of suspension problems. No water pump replacement no dpf - nothing. Electric window stopped working when the cable inside broke. Not one engine problem and I've 200k miles on it.

Would you say you are typical or lucky? I'd say the latter. Good on you though, you are obviously looking after it and it is serving you well so no arguments there.