Owning a car : Better value for money than using PT

veryangryman

Discuss.

My points...

1) Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.
2) Can go where you want when you want. No strikes can affect the journey (albeit breakdowns can)
3) Almost always faster of a journey door to door unless going to a city centre
4) When you factor in taxis, you might as well have your own car.

I guess this isn't exclusive to Ireland but i said id start a conversation about it

irelandrover

veryangryman wrote: »

Discuss.

My points...

1) Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.
2) Can go where you want when you want. No strikes can affect the journey (albeit breakdowns can)
3) Almost always faster of a journey door to door unless going to a city centre
4) When you factor in taxis, you might as well have your own car.

I guess this isn't exclusive to Ireland but i said id start a conversation about it

1) not if you have to pay for parking in a city for a few hours while you go shopping
2) how is this anything to do about value?
3) see above
4)i dont own a car, i havent got a taxi in a year

Nekarsulm

Outside of city centres, there is no alternative to owning your own car. (Unless you cycle. )
There is no integrated PT system for 95% of this countries land mass.

wally79

irelandrover wrote: »

1) not if you have to pay for parking in a city for a few hours while you go shopping
2) how is this anything to do about value?
3) see above
4)i dont own a car, i havent got a taxi in a year

How is a better selection of routes in quicker time not about value for money.

If he was comparing 2 bus companies it would be so in comparing PT vs car it is also

magicbastarder

veryangryman wrote: »

Discuss.

My points...

1) Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.

are you calculating based purely on the marginal cost of driving, once ownership of the car is already assumed?

magicbastarder

let's say it costs €2,000 a year simply to own a car - basically sunk cost in depreciation - which is i guess a middle ground between buying a 15 year old micra, or buying a brand new BMW every three years.
add say €1000p.a. in tax and insurance, €1000 in fuel, and you've hit €4000 quickly enough.

i'm dublin based; my annual bus and luas taxsaver ticket came at a net cost to me of about €800, and i could hop on and off the bus and luas at will.
the CIE 'all services' taxsaver ticket - irish rail, dublin bus and bus eireann - at €6,350 is still less than the cost of the car, based on someone paying the higher rate of tax.

Mrs OBumble

Deedsie wrote: »

Cost of the vehicle, maintenance of the vehicle, Motor tax, car insurance, unpredictable price of diesel/petrol, cost of parking, stress caused by traffic congestion.

This. Ten years ago, i did some sums just including parking and insurance, and figues out that it would be cheaper to rent a car every 3rd weekend than to own. That's with not taking account of maintenance or cost of capital.

So i did.

And the best bit was that when the recession arrived, i was able to cut back immediately.

whisky_galore

Deedsie wrote: »

Cost of the vehicle, maintenance of the vehicle, Motor tax, car insurance, unpredictable price of diesel/petrol, cost of parking, stress caused by traffic congestion.

Inevitable medical bills due to how unhealthy car drivers are compared to public/active transport users. "My back", hypertension, overweight etc

Have you ever seen a fit and healthy taxi driver?

The govt (and insurance industry) are making it more and more unattractive to own and run a car.
The days of the cheap as chips small old runabout are numbered if the insurance industry won't touch them even if they are perfectly safe to run.

I love Sean nos

veryangryman wrote: »

i said id start a conversation about it

Who did you say that to?

bk

veryangryman wrote: »

1) Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.

I just wanted to tackle this one, far from true.

Last weekend (and regularly) my better half and I, took the coach Dublin to Cork and back, €44 all in (would be €40 on Aircoach).

In terms of just Diesel and tolls it would easily be €50 to €60.

And then add the cost of buying a car, depreciation, maintenance, road tax, insurance, etc.

So no, it was WAY cheaper for us to take the coach.

Plus add in the fact that for those 3 hours I got to sit their, relax and watch a movie, while if I was driving, well I would have had to actually drive and concentrate for those 3 hours.

HivemindXX

My transport costs are very low. It seems self evident to me that owning a car of any sort would not be good value. This leads to the conclusion, that should really be self evident, that for SOME people a car is better value and for OTHERS it is not. How many are in each group, and are some (or many) people putting themselves in the wrong group, is the actual interesting question.

However let's flip this around. I often see people talking about how great, nay essential, it is to have and use a private car but yet they complain bitterly about the costs. If a private car is in fact simply better value with no caveats, then surely the costs are appropriate.

nelly17

Cars just don't make any financial sense but unless you live in one of our larger cities with relatively integrated transport you don't have much choice

LirW

For my man it's cheaper to get a Tax saver from Arklow - Dublin for the Bus and it's also a lot faster getting to work since he gets off in the city centre right in front of his office.
Still need to have a car because we have no public transport where we live but it's mainly for local needs.

I love Sean nos

Cars are obviously inexpensive. How else would it to be feasible to leave it idle for approximately 95% of the time and when it is in use, run it at 20 - 40% capacity?

LXFlyer

veryangryman wrote: »

Discuss.

My points...

1) Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.
2) Can go where you want when you want. No strikes can affect the journey (albeit breakdowns can)
3) Almost always faster of a journey door to door unless going to a city centre
4) When you factor in taxis, you might as well have your own car.

I guess this isn't exclusive to Ireland but i said id start a conversation about it

Whether or not running a car is better value than using public transport is entirely dependent upon individual circumstances, such as location, the nature of regular journeys made, public transport options available locally, etc.

There will always be situations for which public transport cannot compete with a car, no matter how well designed the public transport may be, but at the same time for some people using public transport on a day-to-day basis and occasionally renting a car may prove more advantageous.

I'm not sure that you can make a sweeping statement that owning a car will always be better value than using public transport - each individual set of circumstances will differ.

jimmycrackcorm

I have used the following combination for cheap transport.

Cycle to work for commute.
Dublin bikes (so my nice bike doesn't get stolen)
Leap for occasional bus luas
GoCar for quick van rental
Expressway for weekend trips home
Cheap weekend car hire for more flexible use down the country.

But the cheapest option of all for me is driving mrs corms car as it doesn't cost me anything

veryangryman

bk wrote: »

I just wanted to tackle this one, far from true.

Last weekend (and regularly) my better half and I, took the coach Dublin to Cork and back, €44 all in (would be €40 on Aircoach).

In terms of just Diesel and tolls it would easily be €50 to €60.
.

Was your destination beside the station you were going to or require a further connection, bus, luas, taxi etc?

Even if not, thats a once off journey that im sure you dont do often. I mean day to day.

I must hasten to add that it is better "value for money". This includes the fact that its usually quicker and that for me is worth a few quid. The rare occasion that it's not cheaper, its usually faster

knipex

Does anyone actually enjoy driving ??

Get in a car and drive for no reason but to drive ??

Am I the only One ???

magicbastarder

i'd be very skeptical about some of their calculations, but the AA calculated the average cost of car ownership at nearly 11k p.a.
they *are* a lobby group, and it'd suit their interests to exaggerate upwards.

https://www.joe.ie/motors/the-average-cost-of-running-a-family-car-for-a-year-in-ireland-has-been-revealed-559211

magicbastarder

knipex wrote: »

Does anyone actually enjoy driving ??

Get in a car and drive for no reason but to drive ??

Am I the only One ???

i'm sure you're not, but it's not really relevant to the comparison - if you're comparing cost of driving against cost of PT, it assumes a destination or a purpose other than simple pleasure.

LirW

knipex wrote: »

Does anyone actually enjoy driving ??

Get in a car and drive for no reason but to drive ??

Am I the only One ???

My FIL does. He loves to make excuses for a bit of a drive

bk

HivemindXX wrote: »

My transport costs are very low. It seems self evident to me that owning a car of any sort would not be good value. This leads to the conclusion, that should really be self evident, that for SOME people a car is better value and for OTHERS it is not. How many are in each group, and are some (or many) people putting themselves in the wrong group, is the actual interesting question.

However let's flip this around. I often see people talking about how great, nay essential, it is to have and use a private car but yet they complain bitterly about the costs. If a private car is in fact simply better value with no caveats, then surely the costs are appropriate.

Excellent points. It comes down to each individual working out the sums for themselves.

It will come down to what their commute looks like, what other regular trips they might take. What public transport options are available. Is walking or cycling an option. Can you get taxsaver tickets and what tax rate you are on, etc. etc.

However I do think for a lot of, if not most people, don't really sit down and even think about it or do the sums. I see a lot of people who just seem to think buying a car is what you do when you "become an adult" and I see many people who don't really understand the true cost of owning a car, they just look at the cost of Diesel, but seem to forget about the depreciation, insurance, tax, maintenance, etc.

I'd also be surprised that buying and running a car would actually work out cheaper then using PT in most cases, when you actually take into account the total cost of ownership of a car. Of course there maybe other reasons to buy a car, such as inadequate public transport for your commute, etc.

bk

veryangryman wrote: »

Was your destination beside the station you were going to or require a further connection, bus, luas, taxi etc?

City buses to complete the journey, still works out cheaper. And that isn't even taking into account the cost of buying a car, getting it taxed, insured, etc.

veryangryman wrote: »

Even if not, thats a once off journey that im sure you dont do often. I mean day to day.

About every second weekend.

Day to day I:
- work from home a few days a week
- walk/cycle to work the other days, 3km one way, I actually enjoy the walk and get some free exercise.
- take Dublin Bus into town maybe twice a week.
- rent a car the very odd time if needed.

As you can imagine all of that is VASTLY cheaper then buying and running a car.

veryangryman wrote: »

I must hasten to add that it is better "value for money". This includes the fact that its usually quicker and that for me is worth a few quid. The rare occasion that it's not cheaper, its usually faster

Sure, fair enough, time is money. On the other hand, something to keep in mind, I got to use my time productively during that 3 hour trip, usually I either work or chill and watch movie/tv show, where you would have had to actively drive.

I've plenty of family, friends and colleagues who own cars, but actually opt to take the DART into work every morning, as they can actually use the time to start replying to emails for work or read a book, etc.

Public transport while it might take longer door to door, can often be a much better use of your time IMO. Specially with most of them offering free wifi and power now.

_Kaiser_

Deedsie wrote: »

Inevitable medical bills due to how unhealthy car drivers are compared to public/active transport users. "My back", hypertension, overweight etc

Have you ever seen a fit and healthy taxi driver?

You keep pushing this notion of car drivers being unhealthy, unfit and suffering a raft of medical issues.. any actual evidence to back this up?

We know you don't like motorists/cars, but that's just a stretch. There's plenty of people driving every day who also play sports, go for long walks or other physical exercise. Your taxi driver analogy - while perhaps with a bit more merit on the effects - is also flawed as their entire working day involves sitting in the car... by your logic though, anyone in an office job has the same issues regardless of how they got there.


From my point yes, it works out as far better value for the money I spend (which is significant yes) to drive rather than use public transport. What would take me 3 hours and multiple changes by PT can be done in an hour by car, there's also the flexibility of departure time, the ability to reroute on the way to avoid traffic, and of course the comfort of being guaranteed a seat, dry, and being as warm/cool as you like.

There's also no need to take a detour via "An Lar" either to get where you're going, and nor are you restricted from travelling after 11:30 at night or early on Sunday mornings if you need to.

Public transport should serve the masses and can't be expected to fulfil every outlier trip obviously. The issue for Ireland is that for most of the country it's the other way around where unless it's a very simple A-B trip on a core route, the car is often not only the better but the only practical choice.

_Kaiser_

knipex wrote: »

Does anyone actually enjoy driving ??

Get in a car and drive for no reason but to drive ??

Am I the only One ???

Nope, it's not just you I drive a lot for commuting but I generally enjoy being in the car - in part for the reasons I listed above, but also because my car is a very nice place to be

bk

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You keep pushing this notion of car drivers being unhealthy, unfit and suffering a raft of medical issues.. any actual evidence to back this up?

Actually there is quiet a lot of evidence to support this.

For example:
http://www.shape.com/blogs/shape-your-life/how-2-hours-day-driving-tanks-your-health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4049576/
http://time.com/9912/10-things-your-commute-does-to-your-body/

It is widely known that walking is good for your health, the daily average is about 4000 to 5000 steps a day, but it has been found that those who walk double that (8000 to 10000) are much healthier. Less likely to be obese, heart disease, etc.

This is where the whole 10000 steps a day goal thing comes from that Doctors recommend to people.

Clearly those who drive are less likely to reach that goal. Still possible, just much less likely.

Anecdotally I can see this very clearly when I visit the US. Go to NYC or San Fran and you she lots of "Normal" and fit looking people, just like you would in most European cities. Go to the suburbs and it is seriously, "what the hell?!" seriously obese and generally over weight people everywhere. Almost everyone is overweight in the suburbs, it is quiet an eye opener for me.

magicbastarder

can we factor in external costs when discussing the true value of cars and PT?

Amirani

If you have an active social life then a car is feck all use to you half the time too.

_Kaiser_

Amirani wrote: »

If you have an active social life then a car is feck all use to you half the time too.

How so? Unless by social life you mean "getting pissed"?

Amirani

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

How so? Unless by social life you mean "getting pissed"?

Doesn't have to be getting pissed. 3/4 beers or a bottle of wine in town on Friday and Saturday and you're not going to be using your car on Friday and Saturday.

bk

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

How so? Unless by social life you mean "getting pissed"?

Don't have to get pissed!

Remember even one drink is too much to drive.

I'm with Amirani on this one, I like to eat out, normally two drinks with dinner. Enough to have a pleasant time, but certainly not pissed, but still too much to drive.

MGWR

veryangryman wrote: »

Discuss.

My points...

1. Always cheaper than a bus or train if > 1 person going.
2. Can go where you want when you want. No strikes can affect the journey (albeit breakdowns can).
3. Almost always faster of a journey door to door unless going to a city centre.
4. When you factor in taxis, you might as well have your own car.

I guess this isn't exclusive to Ireland, but I said I'd start a conversation about it.

Who did you say it to?

BTW, does "PT" mean "physical training"?

I hate the term "public transport". I prefer "mass transport", but that would refer to having buses and trains (and even road infrastructure) in the private sector; heaven forfend that success may ensue, presuming that regulation and taxation be held down to non-draconian levels. (In Britain, there was no privatisation, but franchising of government-owned services.) I prefer mass transport as an alternative versus being forced to choose my mode of transport; I believe things would work out better in that fashion. (And in the twenty-first century, frankly, there is no reason for trains between cities to not have a top speed of at least 125 mph on traditional railways, especially Dublin-Cork.)

Mrs OBumble

knipex wrote: »

Does anyone actually enjoy driving ??

Get in a car and drive for no reason but to drive ??

Am I the only One ???

I do.

And by renting, I've gotten to drive some cars that are wayyyy nicer than I could afford to buy.

Pkiernan

Amirani wrote: »

Doesn't have to be getting pissed. 3/4 beers or a bottle of wine in town on Friday and Saturday and you're not going to be using your car on Friday and Saturday.

Move to Kerry...drink driving is allowed there

LuckyLloyd

Renting a car seems far better than ownership for those living in Dublin tbh. Rent it when you need it, but if you live in Dublin you don't need a car.

This is a poisonous topic to try and debate however, because many people structure their lives around the fact they have a car; and those that don't drive or own a car will do the opposite. One side truly doesn't understand the other. I can't imagine why some people would drive into the city centre in rush hour traffic for work just as I can't understand those who pay upwards of 5k a year to have a car sitting in the drive that is unused 95% of the time. On the other hand, you'll have people who can't imagine walking 10 minutes to the shop or dealing with people on public transport or whatever.

Ultimately people are not fully rational actors when it comes to this. Need or value are not the primary drivers for many people. And that cuts both ways - there are undoubtedly people who utilise public transport who would be far better served by regular use of a car, though I'd wager the reverse is where the majority of poor personal choices are made, particularly in urban areas.

_Kaiser_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Renting a car seems far better than ownership for those living in Dublin tbh. Rent it when you need it, but if you live in Dublin you don't need a car.

Not true... try getting from Blanch to Cherrywood for example by public transport. Sure it's doable - but it'll take you at least twice as long and cost a fortune with multiple changes and an unnecessary detour via "An Lar"

There are all sorts of orbital journeys not catered for by public transport, and given there's a lot of business parks on the outskirts of Dublin, there's a lot of people affected.

Then if you do shift work, or need an early start Sunday that's another problem.

It's possible to live in Dublin without a car if you live close to your workplace or are only doing a simple A-B trip along a main route... but anything more "complicated" than that is a very different matter.

knipex

Amirani wrote: »

Doesn't have to be getting pissed. 3/4 beers or a bottle of wine in town on Friday and Saturday and you're not going to be using your car on Friday and Saturday.

You do know that you can have a social life without alcohol ??

Have drink but I was out to Dinner with my wife over the weekend and guess what ? I was driving so stuck to soft drinks and coffee.

Was at a christening recently where there was no alcohol served.. Not a drop. No one went to the pub. Kids had fun the child got christened (not my kind of thing but the family seemed to enjoy it) and everyone enjoyed themselves.

Alcohol is not a requirement to have fun.. or to have a social life..

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Not true... try getting from Blanch to Cherrywood for example by public transport. Sure it's doable - but it'll take you at least twice as long and cost a fortune with multiple changes and an unnecessary detour via "An Lar"

There are all sorts of orbital journeys not catered for by public transport, and given there's a lot of business parks on the outskirts of Dublin, there's a lot of people affected.

Then if you do shift work, or need an early start Sunday that's another problem.

It's possible to live in Dublin without a car if you live close to your workplace or are only doing a simple A-B trip along a main route... but anything more "complicated" than that is a very different matter.

For many of those scenarios public transport will never be an option - orbital journeys are far more difficult to cater for by public transport given the unique nature of most journeys made. The need to change at least once for many journeys makes public transport even less attractive (and that's even if there were a proper network of orbital bus routes in place).

When you look at people working in business parks around outer Dublin, the journey to work patterns would be scattered all over the place from the business parks - it's impossible for public transport to satisfy everyone.

You can do that from the city centre along the radial routes, but it becomes a lot more difficult in that scenario.

Also many business parks go a significant distance in from the nearest main road, meaning that people could have long walks to and from the bus service, as well as perhaps to/from a shop where they can buy lunch.

That being said, there is a dire need to put in place meaningful high frequency orbital services with longer operating hours, and in particular western orbital bus services, particularly linking Blanchardstown with points south of the N4, along with at least one more southern orbital service.

bmwguy

My job requires me to be in a few different locations every day which are not served by public transport so it's a necessity. Taxis would be about 60 euro a day between the places so a car is cheaper for me.

For the vast majority of people, commuters etc...no way is OWNING a car cheaper than public transport. The marginal cost per journey might be but not when sunk costs are taken.into account.

Tax insurance depreciation maintenance all add up hugely.

callaway92

The cost of freedom of having your own car is priceless.

Amirani

knipex wrote: »

You do know that you can have a social life without alcohol ??

Have drink but I was out to Dinner with my wife over the weekend and guess what ? I was driving so stuck to soft drinks and coffee.

Was at a christening recently where there was no alcohol served.. Not a drop. No one went to the pub. Kids had fun the child got christened (not my kind of thing but the family seemed to enjoy it) and everyone enjoyed themselves.

Alcohol is not a requirement to have fun.. or to have a social life..

Depends what stage of life you're at to a large degree. If you're a student, someone in their 20s, you're going to be a lot more constrained in this regard. If you have kids and your typical social occasion doesn't involve a pub then it's quite different.

callaway92 wrote: »

The cost of freedom of having your own car is priceless.

Try telling that to Joan Burton :pac:

I love Sean nos

bmwguy wrote: »

Tax insurance depreciation maintenance all add up hugely.

Not to mention the subsidies from society.

dublinman1990

People who live in rural areas with no access to any public transport outside their homes would rely on the car as the yearly costs for car ownership in most cases are irrelevant to them.

The car in these areas is viewed as a necessity to do their day to day business.

In a rural area with generally very limited transport you mostly need to have a car to possibly do everything for your day to day business e.g. get to school/college or work, to go on leisure trips, to go shopping in the centre of town etc.

If you live in an area where there is reliable public transport available to you. By owning a car; you could in theory accommodate it with using the bus or train as a handy option if you go on a local trip or if you use it with P & R facilities for longer trips and so on.

A PAYG Leap is very good value for me. I use it on PT all the time when using it for single journeys. It cost me €20 credit a week by going to college between Blackrock and Bray for 4 days a week. It is great for daily use compared to using money paying for cash fares on the DART & Bus.

People who use a car are losing out big time if you live in Dublin to own one never mind other parts of the country.

I love Sean nos

dublinman1990 wrote: »

People who live in rural areas with no access to any public transport outside their homes

Are there people in rural areas with public transport inside their homes?

magicbastarder

dublinman1990 wrote: »

In a rural area with generally very limited transport you mostly need to have a car to possibly ... go shopping in the centre of town etc.

this is more of an issue in ireland than a lot of other countries as irish people tend not to want to live in the town, but a mile outside of it.

matrim

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This. Ten years ago, i did some sums just including parking and insurance, and figues out that it would be cheaper to rent a car every 3rd weekend than to own. That's with not taking account of maintenance or cost of capital.

So i did.

And the best bit was that when the recession arrived, i was able to cut back immediately.

The problem I found with that was times when I really wanted the rental car (rather than gocar), such as Christmas, Easter and other big holidays prices for renting were mental. It came in at something like 450 for a fiesta for 4 day over Christmas once.

90% of the time the rental / gocar method suited me but the other 10% meant getting a cheap older car was worth it. Luckily I got the car for free which really reduced costs

magicbastarder

the terrrrirrrsts hate our freedom, so they really should just steal our cars.

magicbastarder

in all seriousness though, i do know people who don't own cars. i would not describe the yawning chasm of freedom between car owners and them as being 'priceless'.

GritBiscuit

nelly17 wrote:

Cars just don't make any financial sense but unless you live in one of our larger cities with relatively integrated transport you don't have much choice

This...

Cars are money pits. You are paying for the convenience of travel when and where you want it not for a saving vs public transport.

Around here there is precious little in the way of public transport so owning a car is the alternative to being able to afford taxis everywhere.

HivemindXX

Deedsie wrote: »

All the more reason people should "bike to shop" in our rural towns. Every rural town in Ireland is just streets lined with car after car. Horrendous traffic congestion. Providing for safe urban cycling in our small/medium towns is important to provide an alternative to people who believe the illusion that "you have to have a car".

And yet, when people complain about the traffic in their town the solution is almost always "more parking". Or certainly, "we can't have cycle lanes, things are bad enough without losing any parking".

knipex

Deedsie wrote: »

All the more reason people should "bike to shop" in our rural towns. Every rural town in Ireland is just streets lined with car after car. Horrendous traffic congestion. Providing for safe urban cycling in our small/medium towns is important to provide an alternative to people who believe the illusion that "you have to have a car".

It's such a financial drain on people. And with a bit of critical analysis, lots of people could easily get away without a car.

Have you ever lived or worked in a rural town ? have you ever depended on one ??

You do know that rural towns normally serve a large hinterland with a population normally far in excess of the town. The hinterland can and does extend to a radium of 20 to 30km..

As there is no public transport they have one way to travel..