Caliber Advice

RS98

123shooter wrote: »

And you could end up like me thinking do I really need this thing or would I get more shooting and enjoyment with something else smaller/less powerful.

Like I said at the beginning "If having more power or a bigger bullet was the answer then a .50 caliber would be the only gun to own."

Thanks for your concern man, I do appreciate it. But I can always sell the gun with minimal loss if it doesn't suit me. At least I get that experience right?

I know it's a bit of a hassle going through the whole process, but I'll buy a hmr if the 223 doesn't pan out.

Again, thanks for trying to stop me from making a mistake but I think I need to try, after reading this whole thread.

I'll let you know in a few months if you were right haha.

RS

123shooter

RS98 wrote: »

Thanks for your concern man, I do appreciate it. But I can always sell the gun with minimal loss if it doesn't suit me. At least I get that experience right?

I know it's a bit of a hassle going through the whole process, but I'll buy a hmr if the 223 doesn't pan out.

Again, thanks for trying to stop me from making a mistake but I think I need to try, after reading this whole thread.

I'll let you know in a few months if you were right haha.

RS

Hey you have to try anything at least once........well not everything. :eek:

On this point though as Cass knows I joined here to sell my .223 a few months back, and no expense was spared when purchasing it with top of the range scope, mounts, bipod and other bits. All in all I suppose €2000 maybe more.

Now ask a dealer what he will give you s/h or what some others private sale will give you and then you will understand a little more.

Possibly guns are the worst thing to ever try to sell to recover anywhere near what they cost you. Try 30 - 40% if you want a sale.

sniperman

yes you are right 123.a good loss has to be expected when selling on,i have sold a good few things on here at considerable loss,buts thats it i suppose.

RS98

If I was going down the competition route, would I fill in my club details in the "authorized pistol/rifle club" section in the fca1, as it doesn't specify that the centerfire rating factor?

And BattleCorp, this is deviating from the original thread so apologies but do you just knock on the doors of people living near you, even if you don't know them personally.

RS

RS98

123shooter wrote: »

Possibly guns are the worst thing to ever try to sell to recover anywhere near what they cost you. Try 30 - 40% if you want a sale.

Well that's a grim return!

123shooter

RS98 wrote: »

Well that's a grim return!

Yes you are correct and they would possibly be top figures. Depressing ain't it.

So after all this I eventually got my point across.. A few pints in the pub and a good natter is so much easier to explain things.

BattleCorp

RS98 wrote: »

And BattleCorp, this is deviating from the original thread so apologies but do you just knock on the doors of people living near you, even if you don't know them personally.
RS

It's always easier to ask farmers that you know but if you don't personally know any farmers, do any of your friends know any farmers? Maybe they could put in a good word for you with them.

Failing that, your only option is to go knocking on doors. Be prepared for a lot of "no's" though. Farmers are often reluctant to let strangers shoot on their land.

RS98

Tried a friend who's family had a huge farm. Twas a No though. Still stings. Only thing I've going for me is that I shoot on my neighbours land and can use the "I shoot on paddy's farm down the road".

Cass

123shooter wrote: »

Like I said at the beginning "If having more power or a bigger bullet was the answer then a .50 caliber would be the only gun to own."

No it wouldn't.

It's too simplistic an answer and not even an answer at that, More like a soundbite.

If you were, as you put it, to just go for the biggest caliber then i'd have a 308 for my rimfire comps, a 308 for my deer, a 308 for my clays, and a 308 for all my other shooting.

There are different calibers for different reasons and if i go by that logic then the same can be said for going to the smallest/lesser caliber. How would a WMR work out at 1,000 yards. At clays, bullseye 360, Gallery, deer, pheasant, etc.

123shooter wrote: »

Possibly guns are the worst thing to ever try to sell to recover anywhere near what they cost you. Try 30 - 40% if you want a sale.

sniperman wrote: »

yes you are right 123.a good loss has to be expected when selling on,i have sold a good few things on here at considerable loss,buts thats it i suppose.

If anyone has got into shooting with the view to make money and is not an RFD then you're wasting your time.

Few things in this life will increase in value. Your new car looses thousands before you drive it off the forecourt. Some things will decrease in value slower than others, but it's down to brand and popularity.

223s have always been a steady seller. They are a popular round with a large and varied ammo selection that is widely used around the world. Now as i said earlier the world market is grand, but not very relevant to us. Ireland has it's own little niche. We have our own favorites, and also our "steadfasts". Those things that never change like CZ .22lrs, etc.


My point is if you get into this sport thinking about the resale value of a gun you haven't bought then you've lost the point of the sport.

Also the above point about a 30-40% drop in resale price is very harsh and not truly accurate, imo, but it is not caliber specific. IOW anything can and will loose money.Be that 223, WMR, HMR, etc.

Cass

To RS98.

You pick the type of shooting that you do the most. You pick a caliber that suits that shooting. Then look at the other shooting you do and see how that caiber measures up. If 90% of your shooting is rabbits at 150 yards or less, and perhaps 4 to 5 foxes per year then you look for something that suits rabbit shooting and tailor your shooting to deal with the occasional fox.

Apply the same thing to a different situation. You shoot rabbits mostly, but also deal with foxes for 7 months of the year and the shooting can vary from 50 to 250 yards. Then you need something to do both types of shooting. Something that will humanely kill both at short and longer distances.

Then another situation which must be factored in is the quarry. Do you eat the rabbits and is meat damage important. Well this dilemma can be solved by correct caliber choice, but also ammo choice in a given caliber.

I use ballistic tipped bullets. They provide excellent penetration and dump all their energy on impact. The will destroy a rabbit and cleanly kill a fox. I don't use the rabbit meat, well not nearly as much as i used to, so meat damage is not important to me. What i do kill goes to a local lad for his dogs. As for foxes, i don't eat them so meat damage is irrelevant. All i'm concerned with is a clean kill which i know the 223 will provide each and every time. Even those times i'm not fully on my game and my shot placement is not 100%.

now when i go rabbit shooting i bring my 22lr. I leave the 223 at home. If i see a fox, and he is well within range i might take a shot, but more than likely will let him off and return later with the 223.

When i'm out deer hunting i bring the 308, when clays the shotgun, when doing bullseye 360 the 9mm, etc, etc. IOW i bought more guns and each one is more specific to a certain type of shooting than the other.

There is no such thing as all round type of gun. IOW one gun/caliber, that does everything excellently.

123shooter

Cass wrote: »

No it wouldn't.

It's too simplistic an answer and not even an answer at that, More like a soundbite.

Terribly sorry.

If you were, as you put it, to just go for the biggest caliber then i'd have a 308 for my rimfire comps, a 308 for my deer, a 308 for my clays, and a 308 for all my other shooting.

Not what I meant at all obviously.

There are different calibers for different reasons and if i go by that logic then the same can be said for going to the smallest/lesser caliber. How would a WMR work out at 1,000 yards. At clays, bullseye 360, Gallery, deer, pheasant, etc.

Of course there are different calibres for different reasons that has been my point.

If anyone has got into shooting with the view to make money and is not an RFD then you're wasting your time.

Few things in this life will increase in value. Your new car looses thousands before you drive it off the forecourt. Some things will decrease in value slower than others, but it's down to brand and popularity.

I agree but who mentioned or implied about making money from shooting? Not me.

223s have always been a steady seller. They are a popular round with a large and varied ammo selection that is widely used around the world. Now as i said earlier the world market is grand, but not very relevant to us. Ireland has it's own little niche. We have our own favorites, and also our "steadfasts". Those things that never change like CZ .22lrs, etc.

????

My point is if you get into this sport thinking about the resale value of a gun you haven't bought then you've lost the point of the sport.

Also the above point about a 30-40% drop in resale price is very harsh and not truly accurate, imo, but it is not caliber specific. IOW anything can and will loose money.Be that 223, WMR, HMR, etc.

Possibly some get more, possibly some get less. I was offered €400.00 for truly immaculate without a mark or blemish for my gun from a dealer (unseen) which cost €1400.00 with the mounts which amounts to less than 33%. I suppose I could have got a little more but at those prices my thoughts were:- Why let someone else profit from my misfortune. So he stays hungry. The gun stays put and I ain't lost a thing.

Cass

Not what I meant at all obviously.

Not that obvious. Explain so.

Of course there are different calibres for different reasons that has been my point.

It's not clear so perhaps as i asked above you might explain it. Clearly.

I agree but who mentioned or implied about making money from shooting? Not me.

Ok i'll be more specific. If you buy a gun thinking it won't loose money then think again.

????

What exactly confuses you? I assume that is what the question mark means, but as above you don't explain very well so it's hard to know.

Possibly some get more, possibly some get less.

Bit of a change from a 40% loss.

I was offered €400.00 for truly immaculate without a mark or blemish for my gun from a dealer (unseen) which cost €1400.00 with the mounts which amounts to less than 33%.

Taking you on your word being offered is a far cry from selling for a loss.

123shooter

Jeezus :eek:

Cass wrote: »

Not that obvious. Explain so.

It's not clear so perhaps as i asked above you might explain it. Clearly.

Because the if for rabbits and the odd fox then something that isn't as loud (without silencer) or as powerful that is could destroy the target then some other caliber not so powerful may suit...........possibly a wmr or as you suggest another option a hmr?

Ok i'll be more specific. If you buy a gun thinking it won't loose money then think again.

I agree and that applies to most things I think but some things drop more than others.

What exactly confuses you? I assume that is what the question mark means, but as above you don't explain very well so it's hard to know.

It is irrelevant to how the conversation started. It only went that direction because you took it there. So why keep mentioning it?

Bit of a change from a 40% loss.

Thought I said 30-40% loss.

Taking you on your word being offered is a far cry from selling for a loss.

Dotting the I's and crossing the T's.......why? I can only tell you my story. I am not going to waste my time on boards.ie making up stories for no reason. Perhaps if it suits I/we all should contact each other on this shooting forum via PM and then our replies will not be subject to such scrutiny or offend?

Cass

123shooter wrote: »

Because the if for rabbits and the odd fox then something that isn't as loud (without silencer)

That doesn't explain the 50bmg point? Having a bigger and more powerful round does not require 50cal, not 338, not even 308. In fact it doesn't even require a large or magnum caliber rifle. But it does need something that is only slightly bigger than a 22lr.

The 223 would be louder than a WMR, but the HMR and WMR would be the same in terms of heard report, with the HME ballistically better than the WMR. However the difference in 223 to WMR can only be judged by a decibel meter and not guess work based on perception.

I agree and that applies to most things I think but some things drop more than others.

I find the custom or "unusal" stuff drops far more than the everyday stuff, Tikka, CZ, etc. all seem to hold their value well as they are popular ans sought after.

Then caliber plays a role. Some calibers fall in and out of favour and as a result prices rise and drop. However some calibers will always remain low as RFDs refuse to accept them or offer pittance for them meaning it has a knock on effect to anyone else selling one. WMR falls into this category in my experience and so does calibers like the 6.5x55 which i think is a cracking caliber.

It is irrelevant to how the conversation started. It only went that direction because you took it there. So why keep mentioning it?

It's a point i made. You can read it or not, but i'm free to post it.

Thought I said 30-40% loss.

Yeah, 40% like i said you said.

Dotting the I's and crossing the T's.......why? I can only tell you my story. I am not going to waste my time on boards.ie making up stories for no reason.

I didn't say you were, i said taking you on your word.

Perhaps if it suits I/we all should contact each other on this shooting forum via PM and then our replies will not be subject to such scrutiny or offend?

Nope.

It's a discussion forum so it stays on the forum. If all discussion took place via PM the forum would be pointless.

123shooter

Cass wrote: »

That doesn't explain the 50bmg point?

Meaning that a .50 caliber would be the largest most powerfulist that most people would come across/know about and would do all things required by most people who shoot with a rifle.

It's a discussion forum so it stays on the forum. If all discussion took place via PM the forum would be pointless.

But other people than yourself have a point of view on things for all kinds of reasons whether you think they are right or wrong.

They may not be as experienced or as skilled as others at getting their points of view across when in print than verbally but they try because as you say it's a forum.

tac foley

Cass, just to make a small point in favour of the old 6.5x55SE - yesterday we had a guest shooter zero-ing session, where people who are not actually club members can make use of our facilities to zero their rifles for the season on a proper zeroing range using our chronographs.

Eight turned up, and five of them had 6.5x55SE calibre rifles - three of them with brand-new Blaser, SAKO and Howa rifles.

I have a comment to make about some of the ammunition, but I'll start another thread about that.

tac

ezra_

tac foley wrote: »

Cass, just to make a small point in favour of the old 6.5x55SE - yesterday we had a guest shooter zero-ing session, where people who are not actually club members can make use of our facilities to zero their rifles for the season on a proper zeroing range using our chronographs.

Eight turned up, and five of them had 6.5x55SE calibre rifles - three of them with brand-new Blaser, SAKO and Howa rifles.

I have a comment to make about some of the ammunition, but I'll start another thread about that.

tac

Is there really any practical difference (from either shooter's or the target's perspective) between a .308 and 6.5x round at the range that most average hunter's shoot at?

Cass

123shooter wrote: »

But other people than yourself have a point of view on things for all kinds of reasons whether you think they are right or wrong.

There is no right or wrong.

I'm giving mine and others are free to give their opinion. I happen to be talking with you, somewhat directly, but others are still free to chime in as they have done.

They may not be as experienced or as skilled as others at getting their points of view across when in print than verbally but they try because as you say it's a forum.

The written word has no context so when you write something it doesn't always translate as clearly as it does when you write it.

I've done this myself. Had a thought in my head, knew what i wanted, but no matter how i write it it still doesn't convey the opinion i want to give.

tac foley wrote: »

Cass, just to make a small point in favour of the old 6.5x55SE .......................

You don't have to convince me about the 6.5, it's a personal favorite. It seems to have fallen out of favour here. I know from when i had mine that ammo choice was terrible, constant availability of your chosen ammo is also a factor. The the price. The average box of ammo was in the €40+ mark. Now some was slightly cheaper, but if it didn't work in my rifle what good is cheap ammo.

tac foley

ezra_ wrote: »

Is there really any practical difference (from either shooter's or the target's perspective) between a .308 and 6.5x round at the range that most average hunter's shoot at?

Nope. Just thought it was an interesting point that the old Swede is just highly thought of over a hundred and twenty years after its introduction.

The recoil is lighter, too, for those with a smaller frame - younger shooters or women shooters or younger women, even.

tac

RS98

What's the cheapest 223 ammo you can buy in Ireland? They seem to cost €1 per trigger pull for the cheapest stuff I found. Is that about right?

RS

Cass

The absolute cheapest stuff costs around €7 per box of 20. It's steel cased and frankly not suitable for hunting.

The prices then go to 13 per box, 15, 20, 22, 26 28 and up as high as 31 per box. It depends on type of ammo.

Fiocchi and Hornady do boxes of 50. Some are target rounds others are hunting. They start at €29, then at €35 and €43 per box of 50.

It's not as cheap as HMR, WMR and nowhere near as cheap as 22.

RS98

Cass wrote: »

The absolute cheapest stuff costs around €7 per box of 20. It's steel cased and frankly not suitable for hunting.

The prices then go to 13 per box, 15, 20, 22, 26 28 and up as high as 31 per box. It depends on type of ammo.

Fiocchi and Hornady do boxes of 50. Some are target rounds others are hunting. They start at €29, then at €35 and €43 per box of 50.

It's not as cheap as HMR, WMR and nowhere near as cheap as 22.

Thanks, have you tried American Eagle stuff? How did they do?

RS

Cass

Pretty good.

I've shot it in the bolt action and my semi auto. Performs well in the semi and very well in the bolt action. It has a few configurations such as 50 gr flat base, 55 hollow point, 50 gr fmj, etc. Also varies in price from €13 to €20 per box.

thunderduck

buy a .243 or a .270, had a voere in .270 very nice gun

tac foley

Both of those calibres are lot more costy than any quality .223...and, I'd suggest, from reading these pages over the years, somewhat harder to find.

tac

RS98

thunderduck wrote: »

buy a .243 or a .270, had a voere in .270 very nice gun

Thanks for the advice but .223 is more than plenty for what I need. Plus, ammo cost doesn't seem too bad for 223

RS

thunderduck

RS98 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice but .223 is more than plenty for what I need. Plus, ammo cost doesn't seem too bad for 223

RS

.223 would wake the dead, yeah ammo cost would come into it alright i buy american eagle in .223 up here in kildare 17 euro for 20.

maybe the .270 is over kill but i would honestly look into the .243 if i was you!

Vegeta

Op, to avoid the vast majority of depreciation, buy a second hand .223 in good condition. After the initial owner from new takes the hit it will not drop drastically in value after that.

RS98

Vegeta wrote: »

Op, to avoid the vast majority of depreciation, buy a second hand .223 in good condition. After the initial owner from new takes the hit it will not drop drastically in value after that.

Cheers Vegeta, that's pretty much what I did. Agreed on a nice Remington 700 in . 223 today from a boards member, very accurate gun. I was surprised as to how quiet it was. I'll hand in the application very soon and hopefully get the license soon.

I have one more question though. Turns out my club is getting a centerfire range soon, that will be rated for 223. That'll be around September. What I'm wondering is, can I put the target shooting as a reason now as well, or would that be misleading?
To be clear, I want to shoot the 223 in the range when it's built, but can I put that as a reason now.

My reasoning is, it might take over a month for the license to come through, and I'll be on holidays for all of August, and then in September, the range should be ready. I don't see anything wrong with that but maybe one of ye do?

Obviously, I'll have permissions as well.

Thanks for all your help,
RS

Cass

The FCA1 doesn't specify such things as time it'll be completed, centrefire rated, etc. So i don't think it's a fraudulent application considering it's a good faith application.

I'd include it.