Doctor calls for ban under 18s playing rugby

Former Former · 26-07-2017 3:03pm

As we know, the doctor who is the subject of this thread was the first to identify CTE - chronic traumatic encephalopathy - in NFL players.

Well, here's some more evidence of the problem:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/study-of-111-nfl-players-brains-shows-110-to-have-suffered-cte-1.3167275

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 3:17pm

Evidence of the problem in the NFL. Not rugby. That does need to be stated clearly.

There absolutely needs to be a study of rugby players. And as others have said, to really make this stand out to people we need to develop a way of diagnosing living players with symptoms. It can't be that hard it's just brain surgery.

thebaz · 26-07-2017 3:56pm

Former Former wrote: »

As we know, the doctor who is the subject of this thread was the first to identify CTE - chronic traumatic encephalopathy - in NFL players.

Well, here's some more evidence of the problem:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/study-of-111-nfl-players-brains-shows-110-to-have-suffered-cte-1.3167275

the study was carried out on dead players - which is strange - most American footballers would see American football as being a positive in there life , keeping many away from an unhealthy and much more dangerous life on the streets - life is dangerous (at times) , but you got to live, - again most people I know don't regret playing the various types of football, including me who has been left with long term irreverivble damage (knee & shoulder) - but I certainly don't regret it.

Former Former · 26-07-2017 4:05pm

thebaz wrote: »

the study was carried out on dead players - which is strange - most American footballers would see American football as being a positive in there life , keeping many away from an unhealthy and much more dangerous life on the streets - life is dangerous (at times) , but you got to live, - again most people I know don't regret playing the various types of football, including me who has been left with long term irreverivble damage (knee & shoulder) - but I certainly don't regret it.

Can you clarify this first sentence?

Former Former · 26-07-2017 4:13pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Evidence of the problem in the NFL. Not rugby. That does need to be stated clearly.

Yeah, and I know the reaction is that hits are much bigger in the NFL and there are more hits to the head, which is true - but I thought it was interesting that the effect was seen in kickers and punters, who would get hit a lot less frequently than your average rugby player.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be a study of rugby players. And as others have said, to really make this stand out to people we need to develop a way of diagnosing living players with symptoms. It can't be that hard it's just brain surgery.

Well this is the problem, there isn't even a reliable diagnosis of acute concussion, let alone the cumulative effects of twenty years of getting hit.

26-07-2017 4:14pm

Former Former wrote: »

Can you clarify this first sentence?

It's pretty clearly laid out in the article you posted the link to above.

thebaz · 26-07-2017 4:14pm

Former Former wrote: »

Can you clarify this first sentence?

The first sentence of the link states

"Ann McKee, a neuropathologist, has examined the brains of 202 deceased American football players"

Does that clarify for you ?

sydthebeat · 26-07-2017 4:17pm

thebaz wrote: »

The first sentence of the link states

"Ann McKee, a neuropathologist, has examined the brains of 202 deceased American football players"

Does that clarify for you ?

I think the point being made is why would you think its strange that the report was carried out on all dead players... when the examine consists of slicing up the brain.

Former Former · 26-07-2017 4:17pm

thebaz wrote: »

The first sentence of the link states

"Ann McKee, a neuropathologist, has examined the brains of 202 deceased American football players"

Does that clarify for you ?

I was asking you to clarify why you thought performing such a study on dead people was strange?

thebaz · 26-07-2017 4:20pm

Former Former wrote: »

Well this is the problem, there isn't even a reliable diagnosis of acute concussion, let alone the cumulative effects of twenty years of getting hit.

Rugby has been played for over a 100 years , most (including many medics)would believe that it is beneficial to play - yes, you can be unlucky , but all pursuits bar chess and the like have some form of risk. The problem for many youth today is not getting enough exercise/sport. The risk of brain damage from alcohol and drugs I would think are much more a risk to our society today , than various forms of football, boxing and hurling.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 4:21pm

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, and I know the reaction is that hits are much bigger in the NFL and there are more hits to the head, which is true - but I thought it was interesting that the effect was seen in kickers and punters, who would get hit a lot less frequently than your average rugby player

Place kickers and punters were tested but I'm not sure they were among those who tested positive from that article. And even if they did, its not clear they hadn't played elsewhere in school which is more common. So they have been in the 13 percent who tested negatively or in the other group who tested positive for mild symptoms.

thebaz · 26-07-2017 4:24pm

Former Former wrote: »

I was asking you to clarify why you thought performing such a study on dead people was strange?

I would thought it be more beneficial to conduct study on recent ex players , than those that have deceased , all or many i assume dying from different causes.

CatFromHue · 26-07-2017 4:24pm

Was the study carried out on random players or players where they thought the guy might have had a problem?

i.e. if it was players they thought had a problem it just confirms that but if it was carried out on random players where they didn't think they had a problem that's a very different story.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 4:25pm

thebaz wrote: »

I would thought it be more beneficial to conduct study on recent ex players , than those that have deceased , all or many i assume dying from different causes.

They have done that as well. There have been many studies, including those who committed suicide due to the extremely severe effects of CTE, like Junior Seau.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 4:26pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Was the study carried out on random players or players where they thought the guy might have had a problem?

i.e. if it was players they thought had a problem it just confirms that but if it was carried out on random players where they didn't think they had a problem that's a very different story.

It was not random players. It was players whose brains were donated specifically to this study.

Former Former · 26-07-2017 4:31pm

thebaz wrote: »

I would thought it be more beneficial to conduct study on recent ex players , than those that have deceased , all or many i assume dying from different causes.

You have to slice their brains open to diagnose it.

It would help if you read the article that you're so exercised by.

thebaz · 26-07-2017 4:37pm

Former Former wrote: »

You have to slice their brains open to diagnose it.

It would help if you read the article that you're so exercised by.

calm down - i don't have full access to Irish Times - never mind ,

Former Former · 26-07-2017 4:40pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Was the study carried out on random players or players where they thought the guy might have had a problem?

i.e. if it was players they thought had a problem it just confirms that but if it was carried out on random players where they didn't think they had a problem that's a very different story.

Yeah, the authors acknowledge that to get a "true" picture of the situation, you'd need a control group of non-symptomatic players, or players who played at underage/college level but not professionally.

CatFromHue · 26-07-2017 5:31pm

tbh without that control group it's a bit of a pointless result. the headline should be "ex players who thought they had CTE, had CTE"

Former Former · 26-07-2017 10:41pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

tbh without that control group it's a bit of a pointless result. the headline should be "ex players who thought they had CTE, had CTE"

That wasn't the objective of the research. They set out to identify the clinical and pathological characteristics of CTE, not to determine its frequency.

It's not a pointless result, it's incredibly important research. It's been published in probably the world's most prestigious medical journal so the methods are robust and the findings have been thoroughly reviewed.

If anyone is genuinely interested, the full paper is available free on the JAMA website.

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 10:48pm

Former Former wrote: »

If anyone is genuinely interested, the full paper is available free on the JAMA website.

If you have an account. And if you want an account you need to be a US resident.

Former Former · 26-07-2017 11:12pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you have an account. And if you want an account you need to be a US resident.

Nope

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2645104

irishbucsfan · 26-07-2017 11:17pm

Former Former wrote: »

Nope

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2645104

Right, have you downloaded it?

CatFromHue · 26-07-2017 11:20pm

Former Former wrote: »

That wasn't the objective of the research. They set out to identify the clinical and pathological characteristics of CTE, not to determine its frequency.

It's not a pointless result, it's incredibly important research. It's been published in probably the world's most prestigious medical journal so the methods are robust and the findings have been thoroughly reviewed.

If anyone is genuinely interested, the full paper is available free on the JAMA website.

I've used up my free IT articles so I've only read the headline from the IT.

thebaz · 27-07-2017 12:13am

Former Former wrote: »

That wasn't the objective of the research. They set out to identify the clinical and pathological characteristics of CTE, not to determine its frequency.

if that was the case the headline was mis-leading - particularly those without full IT access.

Do you really believe banning rugby, soccer , American football - and by default hurling and Gaelic football - along with Boxing (and I assume martial arts) for school kids would be a good thing ?

Lets make the sports as safe as possible, but outright ban is extreme, and will undo all the good that these sports do to youths today.

Former Former · 27-07-2017 9:18am

thebaz wrote: »

if that was the case the headline was mis-leading - particularly those without full IT access.

Do you really believe banning rugby, soccer , American football - and by default hurling and Gaelic football - along with Boxing (and I assume martial arts) for school kids would be a good thing ?

Lets make the sports as safe as possible, but outright ban is extreme, and will undo all the good that these sports do to youths today.

No, I don't think banning these sports is either realistic or proportionate.

But nor do I think that rugby can be made safe. That's absolute fantasy as well.

So then you're faced with a question of assessing the risk and deciding if that's something that you want to take on, either for yourself or your kids. And to assess that risk, you need to know what you're dealing with in terms of possible consequences, short-term and long-term - so you need research, you need evidence of what might happen - and then you make an informed choice. So I just thought these latest findings were very interesting.

This is absolutely going to be an issue for rugby, but it could be 20-30 years before we know the extent of it. The lawsuits are coming, there is nothing surer.

Doctor calls for ban under 18s playing rugby

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