Income Tax in Ireland

For Reals

Gas. Which left wing party brought in the current level of Public servant salaries?
We need reform, but don't really want it? What kind of low grade elected public representative goes into government on that knowledge?
All the problems we have won't be solved by the left, begs the question, who caused all the problems we have?
We should never blame private business, like unions, they represent their members and do their best for them.
I would suggest the issue lies with governments pandering to vested interests for votes and backing. That's the way it's been under generations of FF/FG. But the left won't fix it, no :rolleyes: There's a middle ground surely?
A majority led FG government would bring more of what we've seen since 2011. Pandering to vested interests and ignoring crises that make no money. To paraphrase Billy Connolly, if ****e was worth money a friend of Fine Gael would get the contract to install all toilets.

markodaly

For Reals wrote: »

Gas. Which left wing party brought in the current level of Public servant salaries?

Fianna Fail.

We need reform, but don't really want it? What kind of low grade elected public representative goes into government on that knowledge?

We need reform and change, so long as it does not hurt our pockets and impact on our lives. This is the same the world over. Change and reform is very difficult to implement. This is not exactly news, but if it is then your welcome.

All the problems we have won't be solved by the left, begs the question, who caused all the problems we have?

Sorry, but did someone promise Utopia? Life aint fair, the world aint fair. If you believe in utopia, I have magic beans to sell.

We should never blame private business, like unions, they represent their members and do their best for them.

Find me a place where someone said this on this thread and I will give 100 euro to charity.

I would suggest the issue lies with governments pandering to vested interests for votes and backing. That's the way it's been under generations of FF/FG. But the left won't fix it, no :rolleyes: There's a middle ground surely?

So, how would 'the left' fix it. You think just by voting for Solidarity or Sinn Fein this problems will dissappear and be solved within a few years. Utopia just around the corner after the next GE. Ah, so naive. Bless.

A majority led FG government would bring more of what we've seen since 2011. Pandering to vested interests and ignoring crises that make no money. To paraphrase Billy Connolly, if ****e was worth money a friend of Fine Gael would get the contract to install all toilets.

You are doing no favours with our nonessential argumentative rhetoric. A word of advice, if you want to convince people of your stance drop the whole 'woe me smart alec' style. If on the other hand you just want to be the perpetual glass half empty guy, then fair enough, but you have to realise after a while it wears thin and in of itself achieves nothing.

MayoSalmon

If you tax something you get less of it, if you subsidize it you get more of it.

Tourism sector and airport levy previously mentioned in the thread is case in point.

Supply side economics 101 that the left just don't want to hear

Geuze

Jawgap wrote: »

......I've just done my assessment for 2016 and - again - I find myself handing over 54% of what I earned to the government.

Nobody in Ireland pays 54% of their income in direct tax.

Nobody.

Please post your exact data to support your statement.

Geuze

grahambo wrote: »

I'm in complete disagreement with you, we are very heavily taxed in this country, especially if you are a PAYE worker.

Let me be absolutely clear - the overall level of taxation here is not high, compared to all European countries.

It is low, or more like middling. This is beyond dispute.

Now, whether we get value for the taxes paid, that is open to debate, I agree with you.

Too much goes on welfare, not enough on capital infrastructure, IMHO.

Geuze

grahambo wrote: »

I'm in complete disagreement with you, we are very heavily taxed in this country, especially if you are a PAYE worker.

My parents pay PAYE, they pay less than 10% direct tax on 49k income.

Now, that is low.

Geuze

Idbatterim wrote: »

I just read a article highlighting the shambolic tax system here. Good article, can't find link now though. There should be no more USC cuts or workers taken out of tax net. The issue isn't in that end. They want to raise the threshold at which you pay the outrageous rate. That missing the point. Taxing income a tax the rate of 51% is the major issue! I think it should be around 35% or so. From maybe 35-70k or thereabouts. Significant, but not enough to do stop people taking hours, extra work etc. I think any rate over 45% is taoimgbthe absolute piss regardless of income

Top MTRs of 50% like we have are very common.

But they kick in at maybe 5x-10x average earnings.

I say keep the 50% top MTR, but make sure hardly anybody faces it.

Start the 50% MTR at 100k.

Yourself isit

markodaly wrote: »

How does the 20 plus billion distributed in the Dept of Social Welfare ensure that profit margins are propped up. How about the Dept. of Education and its 10 Billion or the Dept. of Health and its 18 Billion ensure profit margins are propped up?

Rent allowance is a floor on rents for landlords.

Yourself isit

Geuze wrote: »

Nobody in Ireland pays 54% of their income in direct tax.

Nobody.

Please post your exact data to support your statement.

Yeah can't happen even if the top rare was 54% unless you earn millions and are rounding the percentage .

But the low level at which the 50% comes in is a huge distortion.

Look at rent costs. Let's say they have increased 400€ per month in Dublin city centre since 2012.

The worker on an income past marginal rate would have to have earned 800€ P/M Pre tax to stay still in discretionary income. His employer would - if he wanted this guy to stay in ireland - pay that and more. Huge costs.

The landlord class then gets the 400€ and is (most likely ) on 50%. He gets 200€ p/M bit owes new property tax etc.

Very few people gaining here except the government.

For Reals

We need to look at why so many people need state/tax funded aid rather than looking at simply raising or cutting it. People need what they need to get by, that's how welfare rates are generally come to.
We should not be supplying tax breaks to any private business unless it benefits the tax payer.

markodaly wrote: »

Fianna Fail.




We need reform and change, so long as it does not hurt our pockets and impact on our lives. This is the same the world over. Change and reform is very difficult to implement. This is not exactly news, but if it is then your welcome.

The idea that's it's continue with the flawed and proven failures of FG policy, (see housing, poverty, homelessness) or the left will give everything away is a cliche scare mongering tactic.


Sorry, but did someone promise Utopia? Life aint fair, the world aint fair. If you believe in utopia, I have magic beans to sell.



Find me a place where someone said this on this thread and I will give 100 euro to charity.



So, how would 'the left' fix it. You think just by voting for Solidarity or Sinn Fein this problems will dissappear and be solved within a few years. Utopia just around the corner after the next GE. Ah, so naive. Bless.



You are doing no favours with our nonessential argumentative rhetoric. A word of advice, if you want to convince people of your stance drop the whole 'woe me smart alec' style. If on the other hand you just want to be the perpetual glass half empty guy, then fair enough, but you have to realise after a while it wears thin and in of itself achieves nothing.

It was alleged the left would exacerbate problems, ironically created and maintained by both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael led governments.
Just read posts in context and you'll be grand. Jumping in with two right feet and no input aside defending the status quo and picking personal gripes is becoming boring. 'Person has issue with government and it's lousy record shocker'. Don't let it upset you so.
I don't represent 'the left'. Trying to make it constantly about sides has us where we are. It's pure party led spin. Again with the personal slant. I'll toddle along so :rolleyes:

The idea that we only have the options of staying the course with failed FG policy, (two tier system; see poverty/housing/homelessness) of 'de left' who will give everything away is pure cliche scare mongering drivel.

Tax relief for landlords and a tax break for the top 11% would be populist idiocy, if not already the natural style of Fine Gael.

jimmycrackcorm

For Reals wrote:

The idea that we only have the options of staying the course with failed FG policy, (two tier system; see poverty/housing/homelessness) of 'de left' who will give everything away is pure cliche scare mongering drivel.

I know which option I prefer and it's not the left type we see in Venezuela, Greece or Cuba...

I also decry the automatic supposition that the afore mentioned problems would be solved by a left government. I don't foresee, for example, how the health system would be improved by higher taxation on doctors and consultants earning over 100k given the difficulty recruiting as things stand presently.

The current government is committing 5 billion to housing, so what extra would the left propose and how would it be financed?

Idbatterim

lads I think there is one thing we can all agree on, that having an outrageous marginal rate of 51% for those on even relatively low incomes is moronic. Its not even the entry point that needs to be increased in my opinion, its the insane rate itself. Taxing labour (Which is mobile and flexible) at that kind of a rate is insanity!

I think FG are the best of a bad lot, its all hypothetical, the left will never get in here anyway. They are fantasists, like Burton with her "labours ways not frankfurts way" the level of dillusion is beyond any belief...

For Reals

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I know which option I prefer and it's not the left type we see in Venezuela, Greece or Cuba...

I also decry the automatic supposition that the afore mentioned problems would be solved by a left government. I don't foresee, for example, how the health system would be improved by higher taxation on doctors and consultants earning over 100k given the difficulty recruiting as things stand presently.

The current government is committing 5 billion to housing, so what extra would the left propose and how would it be financed?

You didn't really read my post did you?
In the fantasy world were it's the current FG government or Stalin, I'd agree with you.
Our far left is on 4% in the polls. Why people think or pretend they are the only go to past FF/FG is beyond me. Maybe if FG see us going for something different, they'll get their arse in gear. If you've a problem with civil servant salaries, taxation, welfare rates etc etc look no further than Fine Gael.
Let's see what form this 5 billion takes. Promises mean absolutely nothing from these lads. Probably be in the form of tax relief to developers or losses taken selling off public land to private concerns. They'll likely build houses on our land many can't afford and the tax payer will have their pocket dipped once again. Then the boys in blue will be on cribbing about the FG hard left flavour of the month like them and their 4% played a role.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Let me be absolutely clear - the overall level of taxation here is not high, compared to all European countries.

It is low, or more like middling. This is beyond dispute.

Now, whether we get value for the taxes paid, that is open to debate, I agree with you.

Too much goes on welfare, not enough on capital infrastructure, IMHO.

Now go and compare both indirect and direct taxes and the cost of living and then compare the level of service you get in these other Euro countries you seem to have studied, every country gets more bang for their buck than this country. We pay a first world rate for services and receive a third world rate of service in return. No other country comes close to the level of misspending that our financial overlords get away with in this country.

The myriad of money wasted (3 off the top of my head)
HSE all the different health boards amalgamated with no redundancies.
Voting machines
Irish Water

I could go on with at least 2 / 3 dozen more.

Its shear madness the level of money that goes into black holes in this county and politicians simply shrug their shoulders and say nothing we can do about that..Its very frustrating.

For Reals

fliball123 wrote: »

Now go and compare both indirect and direct taxes and the cost of living and then compare the level of service you get in these other Euro countries you seem to have studied, every country gets more bang for their buck than this country. We pay a first world rate for services and receive a third world rate of service in return. No other country comes close to the level of misspending that our financial overlords get away with in this country.

The myriad of money wasted (3 off the top of my head)
HSE all the different health boards amalgamated with no redundancies.
Voting machines
Irish Water

I could go on with at least 2 / 3 dozen more.

Its shear madness the level of money that goes into black holes in this county and politicians simply shrug their shoulders and say nothing we can do about that..Its very frustrating.

Agreed.
We need a re-think.
As it stands money can be thrown at issues to keep them off the doorstep and wasted on projects or policies as long as they can be related to business in some form. If we waste tens of millions on a bad deal (government contract/NAMA etc.) it seems par for the course for some reason, meanwhile we should be cutting the welfare spend or in the least having a witch hunt. Maybe if we managed the country better we wouldn't require such a large welfare spend?
The alledged 'rainy day fund' is a laugh. It's like we've no crises currently.

Idbatterim

I honestly think the rainy day fund is just optics, to bamboozle some people and make it look like they are serious this time round. Sure bloody FF are the ones who were fighting for it to be kept a few days back, FF, FF!

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Now go and compare both indirect and direct taxes and the cost of living and then compare the level of service you get in these other Euro countries you seem to have studied, every country gets more bang for their buck than this country. We pay a first world rate for services and receive a third world rate of service in return. No other country comes close to the level of misspending that our financial overlords get away with in this country.

The myriad of money wasted (3 off the top of my head)
HSE all the different health boards amalgamated with no redundancies.
Voting machines
Irish Water

I could go on with at least 2 / 3 dozen more.

Its shear madness the level of money that goes into black holes in this county and politicians simply shrug their shoulders and say nothing we can do about that..Its very frustrating.

I agree with you.

The price level is way too high, given our incomes.

That is due to excessive property / legal / medical / insurance / energy costs.

Much of that is due to massive legal awards / lack of competition / vested interests / rent-seeking.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

I agree with you.

The price level is way too high, given our incomes.

That is due to excessive property / legal / medical / insurance / energy costs.

Much of that is due to massive legal awards / lack of competition / vested interests / rent-seeking.

yeah but look at the areas you have outlined nearly every worker working in all of those fields at a very low level of wage pay half their wage to the tax man, its no wonder they charge so much, its a vicious circle, so in order to employ someone in these fields the employer has to try and make it attractive with the wage they also are lumbered with paying the stamp for the employee aswell.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah but look at the areas you have outlined nearly every worker working in all of those fields at a very low level of wage pay half their wage to the tax man, its no wonder they charge so much, its a vicious circle, so in order to employ someone in these fields the employer has to try and make it attractive with the wage they also are lumbered with paying the stamp for the employee aswell.

Property costs - Landlords = low-wage workers?

Legal costs - solicitors = low wage workers?

Medical doctors = low wage workers?

Energy costs - workers in power generation and the grid are low wage workers?

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah but look at the areas you have outlined nearly every worker working in all of those fields at a very low level of wage pay half their wage to the tax man

Nobody in Ireland pays half their wages in direct taxes.

Many people have ATRs well below any other country.

However, yes, the MTRs faced by many people on average earnings are way too high at 50% approx.

MayoSalmon

Geuze wrote:

Nobody in Ireland pays half their wages in direct taxes.

Thank God..even 40% is madness considering they take 23% on virtually everything you consume among a myriad of other things.

relax carry on

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Thank God..even 40% is madness considering they take 23% on virtually everything you consume among a myriad of other things.

Pretty sure not everything is at the 23% rate of VAT. There are exempt, zero, nine and 13.5%. Check your vat breakdown next time you are in Tesco.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-rates/search-vat-rates/VAT-rates-database.aspx

Geuze

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Thank God..even 40% is madness considering they take 23% on virtually everything you consume among a myriad of other things.

Every week I read my supermarket receipt, and pay maybe 5 euro VAT on a 100 bill.

Geuze

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Thank God..even 40% is madness considering they take 23% on virtually everything you consume among a myriad of other things.

On 49k gross my parents pay under 10% income taxes.

Charles Babbage

Idbatterim wrote: »

I honestly think the rainy day fund is just optics, to bamboozle some people and make it look like they are serious this time round. Sure bloody FF are the ones who were fighting for it to be kept a few days back, FF, FF!

FF started the Pension reserve, which proved useful in the end as a buffer when things went south.

MayoSalmon

Geuze wrote:

Every week I read my supermarket receipt, and pay maybe 5 euro VAT on a 100 bill.

I said virtually for a reason..

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Property costs - Landlords = low-wage workers?

Legal costs - solicitors = low wage workers?

Medical doctors = low wage workers?

Energy costs - workers in power generation and the grid are low wage workers?

Did I say any of that? What I said was a worker regardless of there experience or role once they go over 33k barrier they must pay 50% of what they earn back to the tax man, hence to entice people to work the employer has to pay them more. I am simply pointing out that our tax regime punishes workers and is immoral no one should pay 50% of monies earned to the tax man.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Nobody in Ireland pays half their wages in direct taxes.

Many people have ATRs well below any other country.

However, yes, the MTRs faced by many people on average earnings are way too high at 50% approx.

Once you earn over 33k odd here you pay 50% in tax that (PRSI, USC and income tax) 50% of every euro earned over..Why should that be, why are we punishing workers

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

Once you earn over 33k odd here you pay 50% in tax that (PRSI, USC and income tax) 50% of every euro earned over..Why should that be, why are we punishing workers

Could be worse, for public servants, because of mandatory 16.5/17% pension contributions earnings over 40k face a marginal tax rate of 70%.

srsly78

Pension contributions are not tax.

lawred2

blanch152 wrote: »

Could be worse, for public servants, because of mandatory 16.5/17% pension contributions earnings over 40k face a marginal tax rate of 70%.

That's not income tax. That's to provide for the very generous pension entitlements of many public servants.

techdiver

JD_PN17 wrote: »

I'd propose doing away with the current tax system in it's current form entirely and starting from scratch. I'd completely do away with tax credits in their entirety, they complicate the system in my opinion and aren't fit for purpose. I'd propose putting in place one form of taxed charged on gross income, with each individual treated as a single tax unit doing away with the ability to lump a married/cohabiting couple as a single tax unit (no more tax benefits to marriage)

Really dumb suggestion. Part of the reason for having single income households is the extortionate cost of childcare. Families already take a hit with one parent staying at home and you want to penalise them further.

We need to encourage people to have more children in Ireland. This move would damage that even further.

maninasia

I sometimes entertain the thought of moving home. The tax rates always give me a cold sweat though. I earn 80-90k euro approx. I work really hard for that money and its certainly a high wage here as it would be in Ireland.

I pay rates of 5, 10, 20 and 30% on that. I think the 30% kicks in around 70k. Top rate is 40% around 110k euro and up.
After various tax deductions for family etc I pay at most 10% income tax. I also pay about 150 euro a month for health insurance and labour insurance for the family.
The pension isn't as generous like Ireland but healthcare is superior overall. Doctor's visits 5 to 10 euro a pop.
Sales tax is 5%.
Cost of living is much cheaper mostly because rents are about half of Ireland and transport and fuel cost also half, only groceries are cheaper in Ireland (most of the petrol price in Ireland are taxes..you even pay VAT after they add the other taxes first ).

I'd need to earn more than 100k euro at least to just match after tax income not including massively increased cost of living. Those kind of jobs dont grow on trees anywhere.
You can see how hard it is financially to justify moving back. Still the call is strong and at least average wages in Ireland are quite decent. If the wife worked we might make up the deficit a little. In fact she would have to work no doubt about it, although that's what she'd want anyway .

But the the 50% tax rate is a real disincentive to moving back! How could I adjust to seeing that on my income statement! That's before getting kicked in the balls by landlords, VAT and doctors !

lawred2

maninasia wrote: »

I sometimes entertain the thought of moving home. The tax rates always give me a cold sweat though. I earn 80-90k euro approx.
I pay rates of 5, 10, 20 and 30% on that. I think the 30% kicks in around 79k or side.
After various tax deductions for family etc I pay at most 10% income tax. I also about 150 euro a month for health insurance and labour insurance for the family.
The pension isn't as generous like Ireland but healthcare is superior overall.
Sales tax is 5%.
Cost of livingishch cheaper mostly because rents are about half of Ireland now and transport and fuel is much cheaper.

You can see how hard it is financially to justify moving back. Still the call is strong and at least average wages in Ireland are quite decent. If the wife worked we might make up the deficit a little.

But the the 50% tax rate is a real disincentive to moving back!

It is by any analysis obscene.

And the only attempt to maybe balance the scales in the USC (i.e. ask that all pay in to the system rather than some) has been whittled away again by our craven cowards.

It's not ever ok to take 50% of anyone's earnings. This isn't exactly war time.

We will see pathetic/token attempts to reduce this 50% disgrace but all we will see is a reduction to something like 49.5% and a whole host of politicians congratulating themselves for doing us a favour.

blanch152

srsly78 wrote: »

Pension contributions are not tax.

lawred2 wrote: »

That's not income tax. That's to provide for the very generous pension entitlements of many public servants.

If you are looking to disincentives to work, the very high marginal "tax" is a big problem in the public sector. All very well to claim it isn't income tax, but public sector workers have no option but to pay it.

maninasia

fliball123 wrote: »

Geuze wrote: »

Property costs - Landlords = low-wage workers?

Legal costs - solicitors = low wage workers?

Medical doctors = low wage workers?

Energy costs - workers in power generation and the grid are low wage workers?

Did I say any of that? What I said was a worker regardless of there experience or role once they go over 33k barrier they must pay 50% of what they earn back to the tax man, hence to entice people to work the employer has to pay them more. I am simply pointing out that our tax regime punishes workers and is immoral no one should pay 50% of monies earned to the tax man.

You've made your point very clear.
A couple of pensioners or people who already have a house, property or farm are in a very good position as long as the taxman sees them getting less than 50k in earned income between the two of them a year they'll only pay 10% income tax.

Once again the babyboomers win!

If a single person or a couple aims to work really hard in the prime of their lives in a PAYE job to get some savings together and get ahead they get crucified cos of the so called progressive tax regime.

It is actually a retrogressive tax regime which punishes people who want to work hard for money, who are high performers and people who need to save money to invest for themselves or want to improve their living standards.

srsly78

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are looking to disincentives to work, the very high marginal "tax" is a big problem in the public sector. All very well to claim it isn't income tax, but public sector workers have no option but to pay it.

You aren't paying anything, it's savings - and you get more back.

blanch152

srsly78 wrote: »

You aren't paying anything, it's savings - and you get more back.

I am not paying anything as I am not a public servant, but the purpose of the deduction is meaningless for this discussion.

You can equally argue meaninglessly that an income tax payer isn't paying anything, it is just a saving for their education, health and security costs.

The pension contribution is mandatory. A person with a health condition that will see them die before 50 is paying those pension contributions of 17.5% and will never get anything back, as is someone who dies in a RTA at 59, as is someone who has inherited wealth and doesn't want or need a pension. Just the same as an income tax payer who is uneducated and healthy, and never commits or is the victim of any crime.

When you are discussing high marginal tax rates as a disincentive to work, you must take into account the total deductions. For a public servant looking to be promoted, or get a pay rise, the fact is that they face a disincentive of a marginal deduction rate of 70%.

jimmycrackcorm

blanch152 wrote:

If you are looking to disincentives to work, the very high marginal "tax" is a big problem in the public sector. All very well to claim it isn't income tax, but public sector workers have no option but to pay it.

Private sector workers other than self employed have no option but to pay also

Where the marginal tax really is punitive, is when it comes to encouraging workers to perform over the average to earn a better bonus. The differential is simply not worth it.

fliball123

blanch152 wrote: »

Could be worse, for public servants, because of mandatory 16.5/17% pension contributions earnings over 40k face a marginal tax rate of 70%.

Yeah but they get a pension that this contribution does not fully cover..It does not even come close to it hence the taxpayer is once again asked to step into the breach to cover the remainder of these pension costs.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Once you earn over 33k odd here you pay 50% in tax that (PRSI, USC and income tax) 50% of every euro earned over..Why should that be, why are we punishing workers

I fully agree that an MTR of 50% on earnings of 34k approx is crazy..

If we move the starting point of the top MTR to 100k, as I suggest, then more tax will have to raised elsewhere.

Here are my suggestions:

abolish the

• age tax credit
• age-based income tax exemptions
• age-based DIRT exemption

increase DWT to 30%
reduce pension tax reliefs for high earners

jimmycrackcorm

blanch152 wrote:

The pension contribution is mandatory. A person with a health condition that will see them die before 50 is paying those pension contributions of 17.5% and will never get anything back, as is someone who dies in a RTA at 59, as is someone who has inherited wealth and doesn't want or need a pension. Just the same as an income tax payer who is uneducated and healthy, and never commits or is the victim of any crime.

You're very pessimistic. Have you seen the stats on life expectancy?

In the private sector paying a greater percentage into a pension as you get older isn't really a choice. It's a necessity.

Geuze

srsly78 wrote: »

Pension contributions are not tax.

I have a feeling that pension conts by PS are treated as govt current revenues in the national accounts.

I can't swear to that, but I don't see them recorded anywhere else.

Idbatterim

FF started the Pension reserve, which proved useful in the end as a buffer when things went south.

true to an extent, but it would have been far better spend on vital infrastrcuture in my opinion. It depends on its use, if it were for more world class welfare or public service pay, then I agree with you...

maninasia what country do you live in?

personally this would be my proposal. No cuts to USC, only marginal rate. No welfare increases. Increase the LPT (actually this will happen automatically in 2019 with the re-evaluation of the house prices) stop taxing labour at mid to higher ends at rates which I assume are doing far more damage than good. What I have proposed, is even probably too radical for Ireland! Believe me if I had my way, the entire welfare system , tax system and public service pay and pensions, would all be started from scratch, based on logic and fairness, not just where we have ended up after decades of nothing other than vote buying and which is now from a political perspective extememly difficult to change.

I cant see anything changing, short of currently only Renua winning a good few seats and pushing us from centre left to centre or slight centre right, in a very basis analysis of the predicament...

Bear in mind, I would also advocate proper water charges, but given that debacle, I wouldnt reopen that can of worms...

If we move the starting point of the top MTR to 100k, as I suggest, then more tax will have to raised elsewhere.

I dont agree with this analysis, although it is the narrative the government use. They are more than welcome to cut or freeze spending and use that money for income tax cuts...

Geuze

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont agree with this analysis, although it is the narrative the government use. They are more than welcome to cut or freeze spending and use that money for income tax cuts...

Note that in 2016 we borrowed 1.8bn on top of taxes, to coverall public spending.

ART6

Perhaps there are two questions here: How much of the average earner's income does the government take in terms of a total percentage, and what does it do with it?
Some time ago I attempted to take a case of an "average" family, with two kids, a mortgage, a car in order to get to work for the husband, and a part-time job for the wife at the checkout of the local Tesco in between school hours.
I don't have the figures now, but the result was frightening then. It was not simply a matter of income tax and, later, the USC and property tax, it was all of the other sneaky little taxes that had been introduced without anyone being aware of them. It was the VAT at all sorts of rates on things that were supposed to be "wants" rather than "needs" like bed linen or gas or oil or electricity for the home. I wondered what value the government had added to the pillow cases my wife just bought? I recall that I ended up with something like 65 to 70% of everyone's income going into the exchequer. That, of course, does not account for the range of corporation taxes applied upon industry with the exception of Apple.
So what does our government do with that money? Let's look beyond the routine running of the country that costs -- hospitals, public transport, Gardai, welfare to those in trouble, foreign relations, defense and all the other services that a modern country needs. Then what?
Well, to start with we have the catastrophic waste of Irish Water, a Fine Gael Holy Grail for the second time in ten years (stupidity is making the same mistake twice and expecting a different outcome each time). Never mind though, let's now have a go at bin charges and let's revalue property tax -- but only in those areas where property values have exceeded 2008 levels but not in those where it hasn't.
We have senior and generally failed politicians retiring to the lecture circuit with pension pots from several public sources to which they contributed nothing and which would outclass the average industrial earnings by several orders of magnitude. We have some who, having made a complete fist of their ministerial brief though sheer administrative incompetence, are appointed to the European Commission in a sinecure in order to secure them yet another pension.
I freely admit that I become bitterly angry with all of this, but I am not an extreme left wing activist and I have no political associations. I have started and run businesses that employed people over the years, but at my roots I have always been an engineer creating things and a working man all of my life. I am, though, not a fool, and I resent being treated like one by some damned tin-pot politician on the make when his sole interest is his salary, expenses, pension at my expense.
My expectations from the state are simple: I want to be told what you need from me from my income in direct tax to run the country without all of the sneaky stealth taxes, VRT, USC, "duty" and VAT doubled on the same product and so on down the endless list. I want to know what these major international corporations are paying into the pot and how that affects the demand upon me. I don't want to be lied to, or subjected to political spin in order to sneak votes from those who have not been paying attention.

I can dream, but it ain't going to happen as long as the current political hierarchy exists as it is.

Cookie_Monster

techdiver wrote: »

We need to encourage people to have more children in Ireland. This move would damage that even further.

There is no need currently, anywhere in the world, to be paying people or subsidising them to have children. With the current global population it should, in fact, be the reverse and people should be heavily taxed for having children.

The mobility of everyone these days makes the argument about needing kids to support the current generation in 20-50 years moot, simply import the required labour from those countries overflowing with people.

MayoSalmon

Cookie_Monster wrote:

There is no need currently, anywhere in the world, to be paying people or subsidising them to have children. With the current global population it should, in fact, be the reverse and people should be heavily taxed for having children.

The top 30 countries in the world in regards to birth rate are virtually all in Africa...madness really.

Bill Gates time would be better spent dolling out millions of Johnnies instead of aid.

blanch152

ART6 wrote: »

Perhaps there are two questions here: How much of the average earner's income does the government take in terms of a total percentage, and what does it do with it?
Some time ago I attempted to take a case of an "average" family, with two kids, a mortgage, a car in order to get to work for the husband, and a part-time job for the wife at the checkout of the local Tesco in between school hours.
I don't have the figures now, but the result was frightening then. It was not simply a matter of income tax and, later, the USC and property tax, it was all of the other sneaky little taxes that had been introduced without anyone being aware of them. It was the VAT at all sorts of rates on things that were supposed to be "wants" rather than "needs" like bed linen or gas or oil or electricity for the home. I wondered what value the government had added to the pillow cases my wife just bought? I recall that I ended up with something like 65 to 70% of everyone's income going into the exchequer. That, of course, does not account for the range of corporation taxes applied upon industry with the exception of Apple.
So what does our government do with that money? Let's look beyond the routine running of the country that costs -- hospitals, public transport, Gardai, welfare to those in trouble, foreign relations, defense and all the other services that a modern country needs. Then what?
Well, to start with we have the catastrophic waste of Irish Water, a Fine Gael Holy Grail for the second time in ten years (stupidity is making the same mistake twice and expecting a different outcome each time). Never mind though, let's now have a go at bin charges and let's revalue property tax -- but only in those areas where property values have exceeded 2008 levels but not in those where it hasn't.
We have senior and generally failed politicians retiring to the lecture circuit with pension pots from several public sources to which they contributed nothing and which would outclass the average industrial earnings by several orders of magnitude. We have some who, having made a complete fist of their ministerial brief though sheer administrative incompetence, are appointed to the European Commission in a sinecure in order to secure them yet another pension.
I freely admit that I become bitterly angry with all of this, but I am not an extreme left wing activist and I have no political associations. I have started and run businesses that employed people over the years, but at my roots I have always been an engineer creating things and a working man all of my life. I am, though, not a fool, and I resent being treated like one by some damned tin-pot politician on the make when his sole interest is his salary, expenses, pension at my expense.
My expectations from the state are simple: I want to be told what you need from me from my income in direct tax to run the country without all of the sneaky stealth taxes, VRT, USC, "duty" and VAT doubled on the same product and so on down the endless list. I want to know what these major international corporations are paying into the pot and how that affects the demand upon me. I don't want to be lied to, or subjected to political spin in order to sneak votes from those who have not been paying attention.

I can dream, but it ain't going to happen as long as the current political hierarchy exists as it is.

If the state only takes income in direct tax from labour, those who inherit money, own property and shares and other wealth will benefit. That is why we need more indirect taxation such as water charges, bin charges, property tax, wealth tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, etc. so that we can reduce the direct taxation of labour. Business owners in particular get an easy ride from the taxman.

The failure of ordinary workers to understand this is absolutely astounding, but when you see political parties who claim to be left-wing opposing such indirect taxation, you can only despair.

Geuze

ART6 wrote: »

I recall that I ended up with something like 65 to 70% of everyone's income going into the exchequer.

Let me tell you, from the bottom of my heart, that this is incorrect.

Total 2016 Govt revenues were 72,565m.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/giea/governmentincomeexpenditurejuly2017/

In 2016 GNP was 227bn, and the new GNI* was 189bn.