Why Ireland needs a domestic Intelligence organisation immediately

AnGaelach

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Yes we do we have G2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Military_Intelligence_(Ireland)

That's not a standalone service (it provides both military and police intelligence), and it relies on British or ex-British military for most of its security/IT.

For example, the UK has both its intelligence community (Mi5/SiS) and the Army intelligence corps. We have... A few dozen lads (if even) who operate as both intelligence and military.

CrabRevolution

It's strange how the posters who come on here demanding shiny new departments and defence forces all claim to be experts in all things about intelligence and defence. Yet they seem to have an incredibly poor knowledge of the intelligence and defence capabilities of their own country.

Poster 1: "We need to set up an Irish counter terrorism force, an intelligence branch etc."
Poster 2: "We already have all those things"
Poster 1: "Well they're Irish so they must be crap, and I've never seen them so they must do nothing"
Poster 2: "Actually they are well trained and experienced. They do extensive work that often doesn't make the news, and are well regarded abroad"
Poster 1: "No, I told you they're useless. They're so bad a single terrorist could kill everyone in Ireland and stop for lunch in the middle"

Repeat ad nauseum every time there's an attack abroad.

AnGaelach

CrabRevolution wrote: »

It's strange how the posters who come on here demanding shiny new departments and defence forces all claim to be experts in all things about intelligence and defence. Yet they seem to have an incredibly poor knowledge of the intelligence and defence capabilities of their own country.

Poster 1: "We need to set up an Irish counter terrorism force, an intelligence branch etc."
Poster 2: "We already have all those things"
Poster 1: "Well they're Irish so they must be crap, and I've never seen them so they must do nothing"
Poster 2: "Actually they are well trained and experienced. They do extensive work that often doesn't make the news, and are well regarded abroad"
Poster 1: "No, I told you they're useless. They're so bad a single terrorist could kill everyone in Ireland and stop for lunch in the middle"

Repeat ad nauseum every time there's an attack abroad.

You got this part wrong though. We're not well-regarded, that's just a platitude you hear. Much like how every time Obama had a national leader meet him, he went with the "punching above its weight" routine.

TheAnalyst_

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

We do but its part of AGS. What difference does it make if it were separate organisation?

You will get much more capable smater people if it's separate. Because to join any unit in the garda you must a regular guard for at least 2 years.

So I dont think lads with PhDs or whatever wouls join

Wrong. There are quite a few intel analysts with phds working for them.

Barry Badrinath

AnGaelach wrote: »

That's not a standalone service (it provides both military and police intelligence), and it relies on British or ex-British military for most of its security/IT.

For example, the UK has both its intelligence community (Mi5/SiS) and the Army intelligence corps. We have... A few dozen lads (if even) who operate as both intelligence and military.

Explain the British part to me like I am a 10 year old.

Beyondgone

Deleted User wrote: »

In reality. You could go to a nightclub in Carrick on Shannon on a bank holiday. Shoot people for over an hour before an armed response would get there.

Meh, I'm gonna say you're wrong. I've seen one, just the one incident where gardai were on "fast response". I'd say it was 7 or 8 minutes before they were there mob-handed. I was mildly stunned at how fast they got their stuff on site. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

awec wrote: »

It is a shame that every time there is one of these incidents the barstool intelligence and security experts all scurry out from under their rocks for a few days pretending that they have even the smallest idea about what counter terrorism is happening in this country.

Just because Irish intelligence services don't feature in endless Hollywood movies and we don't have our very own James Bond does not mean it doesn't exist or that they're all a bunch of uncouth paddies sitting around a table drinking tea and watching Father Ted on repeat.

I presume this is a dig at me, so please enlighten me as to what our security services are doing, without compromising operations of course. I'm more than happy to add to the information pool by providing reliable information for posters to discuss and challenge. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm prepared to bow to any superior knowledge if you can provide it.

Or was it just an cheap attempt to get a dig by patronizingly referring to 'barstool experts crawling out from under their rocks'. I don't think any adult with an IQ in double figures thinks real intelligence work has anything to do with James Bond stuff either.

Widdershins

Beyondgone wrote: »

Meh, I'm gonna say you're wrong. I've seen one, just the one incident where gardai were on "fast response". I'd say it was 7 or 8 minutes before they were there mob-handed. I was mildly stunned at how fast they got their stuff on site. Where there's a will, there's a way.

In Dublin or in the proper sticks?

Boaty

Anyone who posts on a public fourm as to what the security services do, hasn't a clue about what they actually do.

Carawaystick

If we take non Irish terrorists as the threat, the uk is the most obvious one
Dublin Monaghan bombings
Burning a city centre down
Going into a football stadium and opening indescriminate fire
Opening fire on civil rights march

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Boaty wrote: »

Anyone who posts on a public fourm as to what the security services do, hasn't a clue about what they actually do.

There can be a relative understanding of security services operations without knowing exact details. That's what I'm interested in discussing. For example, I think it would be reasonable to say that the Irish security services are not running assassinations overseas or conducting major hacking offensives.
But posters on public forums would not have access to sensitive documents and operational knowledge, I would agree on that.

corner of hells

Boaty wrote: »

Anyone who posts on a public fourm as to what the security services do, hasn't a clue about what they actually do.

Shhhh , will ya hush up.

martingriff

AnGaelach wrote: »

You got this part wrong though. We're not well-regarded, that's just a platitude you hear. Much like how every time Obama had a national leader meet him, he went with the "punching above its weight" routine.

Is this an opinion or have you any evidence

Beyondgone

Boaty wrote: »

Anyone who posts on a public fourm as to what the security services do, hasn't a clue about what they actually do.

Meh, I dunno. I've family in there. Quite a few actually. I kinda do have an idea. I don't work there tho, so I get to mouth off, lol.

Beyondgone

Widdershins wrote: »

In Dublin or in the proper sticks?

Ireland small. It just is. You're never that far away.

wakka12

Are we really the only country without one or are you exaggerating? Find it hard to believe Moldova or iceland or kosovo have one tbh

NIMAN

wakka12 wrote: »

Are we really the only country without one or are you exaggerating? Find it hard to believe Moldova or iceland or kosovo have one tbh

Obviously just a person who likes to have digs at the Gov.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

wakka12 wrote: »

Are we really the only country without one or are you exaggerating? Find it hard to believe Moldova or iceland or kosovo have one tbh

I'm almost certain we're the only EU country without a DEDICATED Intelligence service, but I'm open to correction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Intelligence_Agency

Greiningardeild Ríkislögreglustjóra-Iceland National Security Agency : https://www.innanrikisraduneyti.is/radherra/raedur-og-greinar_bjorn/nr/6194

Moldova Intelligence Service - http://www.sis.md/en

Further list of Intelligence services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

NIMAN wrote: »

Obviously just a person who likes to have digs at the Gov.

Where are you getting this rubbish from? I haven't even mentioned the government. I have reasonable suggested that Ireland needs a dedicated Intelligence service. How you managed to translate this into a dig at the government is beyond me.

Widdershins

Beyondgone wrote: »

Ireland small. It just is. You're never that far away.

Um..far enough for discomfort in that situation. Many rural garda stations have been closed down and the ones that are open are rarely manned even when they're supposed to be (in my experience anyway.)

I suppose people could leave a message in the box thing outside the station door and the garda might get back to you the next time he does a shift there?

And more pressingly, how far away is the nearest ARU type unit.

wakka12

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

I'm almost certain we're the only EU country without a DEDICATED Intelligence service, but I'm open to correction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Intelligence_Agency

Greiningardeild Ríkislögreglustjóra-Iceland National Security Agency : https://www.innanrikisraduneyti.is/radherra/raedur-og-greinar_bjorn/nr/6194

Moldova Intelligence Service - http://www.sis.md/en

Further list of Intelligence services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies




Where are you getting this rubbish from? I haven't even mentioned the government. I have reasonable suggested that Ireland needs a dedicated Intelligence service. How you managed to translate this into a dig at the government is beyond me.

Fair enough. Thats crazy that we don't have one, why is this

con___manx1

We have no intelligence agency but ireland has more experience dealing with terrorists than any other country in Europe. We even have a terrorist in our government. Who knows how many terrorists in the norths government. We have our way of dealing with things. We don't need to copy the rest of Europe. There was a lot of semtex found by the garda yesterday so they must have some idea what they are doing.

NIMAN

Anything to do with neutrality?

Strong Life in Dublin

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Wrong. There are quite a few intel analysts with phds working for them.

source?

according to http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=13#FAQ341 new garda must spend at least 3 years on normal uniformed policing duties before they can apply for specialist areas.

pangbang

As I said earlier, the focus is in the wrong place here.

We shouldn't be trying to monitor the potentially dangerous people coming in, or who will be born here later.

We should be trying to stop the potentially dangerous people coming here in the first place.

new splinter group

Ireland is all too familiar with how intelligence services work-Brian Nelson and Billy Wright being perfect examples. The last thing we need is an intelligence service. Brit Intelligence is rubbing shoulders with the UK's underworld. The last thing I want is for criminals knowing my movements and whereabouts.

martingriff

pangbang wrote: »

As I said earlier, the focus is in the wrong place here.

We shouldn't be trying to monitor the potentially dangerous people coming in, or who will be born here later.

We should be trying to stop the potentially dangerous people coming here in the first place.

I agree with you however that is not done by just us but by liaison with other agencies in other countries and having a good relationship with them

Persephone kindness

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ireland has more experience with domestic terrorists that most countries.

Nail on head.

Wibbs

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Nail on head.

Yes and no. They are very different terror threats at the pointy end. The groups coming from the Troubles were far more cautious and none were suicidal attacks.

Barry Badrinath

NIMAN wrote: »

Anything to do with neutrality?

Zero

MRnotlob606

everlast75 wrote: »

How did I know that the first link provided by OP was the daily mail...

The Daily Mail were the first media organisation to give an accurate number of people who were killed.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Breaking news: One of London attackers spent time living in Ireland

The Garda Commissioner is holding a special meeting of security and intelligence officers in Garda Headquarters this morning after it emerged that one of the London attackers lived in Ireland for a time.

Gardai have confirmed that an Irish identity card was found on one of the three attackers shot dead by police in London.

He was not however known to the gardai here and did not come to their attention in relation to any crime or security issues.

The man is believed to have been of Moroccan origin and officers at the Garda National Immigration Bureau are checking records to establish his residency and marital status while he was living here.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0605/880356-garda-meeting-london-attack/


I'm not one for rubbing peoples noses in it, but this vindicates my opinion that we are behind the curve when it comes to Islamic extremism. Even the long term resident Muslims here don't know who is coming and going within their communities, so what hope do the Guards have?

Yet another alarm bell ringing this morning, hopefully it might, just might, add some momentum to galvanising support for additional services and/or expansion of intelligence resources.

TheAnalyst_

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

AGS do have civilians, but these would be in support and secretarial roles. Some of the CCTV monitoring may be civilian too. They're definitely not involved in Intelligence and Counter-Terrorism roles, just to clear that up. Although they may have to consider opening up positions for linguists and translators if they want to keep on top of Islamic threats.

Thats actually what I was saying, I should have made it clearer. They have civilians providing an administrative role within their intelligence area but are not operational.

hahah experts everywhere.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

AGS do have civilians, but these would be in support and secretarial roles. Some of the CCTV monitoring may be civilian too. They're definitely not involved in Intelligence and Counter-Terrorism roles, just to clear that up. Although they may have to consider opening up positions for linguists and translators if they want to keep on top of Islamic threats.

You really shouldn't be posting things as facts when you clearly don't know.
And don't expect anyone to actually post the details of AGS intelligence unit or the counter terrorism unit on the internet.

scopper

While we have entities akin to traditional intelligence agencies we don't have the expansive ones that tend to come to mind for most people. But there are logistical reasons for this,
(1) most intelligence agencies rely on SIGADs located around the world that can vary from on the ground installations to satellites. We're not exactly a nation with the clout to get these going. So we essentially outsource this to the UK who at least in the case of Islamic extremism share the same concerns we do, it is as well for them to monitor jihadis here than it is there.
(2) resources is a massive concern here. Running a fully-functional intelligence agency is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. It involves investment in exceptionally expensive equipment.
(3) if we do go ahead with it then training may take a few years. Just to note.

Now, I am not saying we shouldn't have one, but I can certainly understand why we do not. Our proximity with one of the Five Eyes nations means we get intel that likely exceeds nations with superior capabilities, but worse allies. The cost is also likely to make a noticeable dent in our economy as these tend to scale fast.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

scopper wrote: »

While we have entities akin to traditional intelligence agencies we don't have the expansive ones that tend to come to mind for most people. But there are logistical reasons for this,
(1) most intelligence agencies rely on SIGADs located around the world that can vary from on the ground installations to satellites. We're not exactly a nation with the clout to get these going. So we essentially outsource this to the UK who at least in the case of Islamic extremism share the same concerns we do, it is as well for them to monitor jihadis here than it is there.
(2) resources is a massive concern here. Running a fully-functional intelligence agency is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. It involves investment in exceptionally expensive equipment.
(3) if we do go ahead with it then training may take a few years. Just to note.

Now, I am not saying we shouldn't have one, but I can certainly understand why we do not. Our proximity with one of the Five Eyes nations means we get intel that likely exceeds nations with superior capabilities, but worse allies. The cost is also likely to make a noticeable dent in our economy as these tend to scale fast.

This is an excellent post, well reasoned, informative, and logical. I hope to see more of this quality in this thread. Have a like.

TimeToShine

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

This is an excellent post, well reasoned, informative, and logical. I hope to see more of this quality in this thread. Have a like.

You'll be waiting a while so.

AnGaelach

scopper wrote: »

(2) resources is a massive concern here. Running a fully-functional intelligence agency is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. It involves investment in exceptionally expensive equipment.

It certainly is not. Denmark's intelligence agency has an annual budget of about €100 million per annum (800 million kr). It's a chunk of change yes, but it's far and away from the multi-billion dollar enterprise you're saying.

To put it into context: we spent €200 million+ on Christmas bonuses for people on welfare, and spend €650-700 million on foreign aid.

We could simply reduce the Christmas bonus by half, or cut it entirely, and have a fully functional intelligence service. It certainly doesn't break the bank.

scopper wrote: »

(3) if we do go ahead with it then training may take a few years. Just to note.

Which is an argument for starting it sooner rather than later, the sooner it is up and running the better. I'll give you an analogy.

Getting house insurance might take a few days or weeks to accomplish, and it has an up-front cost. Sure, you might not need house insurance, you might get lucky and never need it.

But if your house does catch fire, are you going to try and rush to arrange insurance within a few minutes? Will you wait for the fire to happen, and then buy insurance afterwards so it doesn't happen again? Will you just not buy insurance and hope it was a once-off kind of thing?

Samuel T. Cogley

Ireland had a highly respected military and some very key and influential relationships in the wider (global) community. I'm the first to point the finger and lol at us being stuck in the 1950s, this is an area where Ireland have proven time and again that the solution to this is agencies across the world working together rather than trying to build a ****ing wall and forgetting the lid.

And to paraphrase Corbyn - foreign policy does play a role in this.

That's not to say that Mohamed el Doesntlikethegays or indeed Paddy Abortionsarebabymurder isn't going to walk in somewhere tomorrow and blow/shoot up the place - there is practically nothing any organisation can go about that, it's about everyone remaining vigilant.

Honest question, how many people here would report an old car oddly parked somewhere or an unattended bag?

AnGaelach

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Ireland had a highly respected military and some very key and influential relationships in the wider (global) community. I'm the first to point the finger and lol at us being stuck in the 1950s, this is an area where Ireland have proven time and again that the solution to this is agencies across the world working together rather than trying to build a ****ing wall and forgetting the lid.

What on earth does this have to do with having an intelligence agency, exactly?

Chips Lovell

AnGaelach wrote: »

We could simply reduce the Christmas bonus by half, or cut it entirely, and have a fully functional intelligence service. It certainly doesn't break the bank.

Sure fire vote winner there.

Jawgap

We have a security establishment commensurate with the threat the country faces......no need for an expensive agency that will not add measurably to the safety of the country.....calling for one is like calling for jets to be bought so we can see of those darn Russkies......it'll look great but it's really just very expensive window dressing.

AnGaelach

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Sure fire vote winner there.

Yeah, because the Christmas bonus is such an enormous electoral issue.

Rebelkid

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

In a major crisis, the ARW would almost certainly be called in to take the lead role. Their firepower would be superior to the Gardai's 9mm MP-7 sub-machine guns. One of the outcomes of the Paris attacks was that the French realised the were outgunned by the 7.62mm AK-47 assault rifles versus 9mm pistols and 5.56 carbines. The 7.62 has more range, stopping power, and accuracy.


Frankly, the ARW would be fitter, better trained, more aggressive, better armed, and more experienced in urban combat fighting.

To the best of my knowledge, it was the ARW that shot Dessie O Hare in an ambush. They were also deployed, but not used, during the Mountjoy siege.

The ERU have and use the HK416 assault rifle. The ERU are one of the most experience counter terror units in Europe and the only event which may see the ARW deployed is if the ERU get stretched in terms of numbers. People don't realise how well trained the ERU are.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Rebelkid wrote: »

The ERU have and use the HK416 assault rifle. The ERU are one of the most experience counter terror units in Europe and the only event which may see the ARW deployed is if the ERU get stretched in terms of numbers. People don't realise how well trained the ERU are.

Oh I agree they are well trained, I won't argue there. But the ERU would not be in a position to assault something like an oil rig, ferry, or airplane. That would be ARW territory.

Also, the HK416 is 5.56 calibre, if I'm not mistaken. Still outgunned and out-ranged by a 7.62. The theory behind a 5.56 round is that it, overall, it will wound a suspect but is less likely to kill him. This would require fellow soldiers to remove him from the combat scene, tying them up logistically. It was designed as a NATO tactic for a cold war scenario, not for stopping modern terrorists hopped up on drugs.


Jeez I'm getting very nerdy here altogether...

TheDoc

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

Oh I agree they are well trained, I won't argue there. But the ERU would not be in a position to assault something like an oil rig, ferry, or airplane. That would be ARW territory.

Also, the HK416 is 5.56 calibre, if I'm not mistaken. Still outgunned and out-ranged by a 7.62. The theory behind a 5.56 round is that it, overall, it will wound a suspect but is less likely to kill him. This would require fellow soldiers to remove him from the combat scene, tying them up logistically. It was designed as a NATO tactic for a cold war scenario, not for stopping modern terrorists hopped up on drugs.


Jeez I'm getting very nerdy here altogether...

Our guys now have access to some incredible firepower. The 416 and MP7 are two of the most highly regarded firearms in use in military/law enforcement scenarios. The HK416 is an incredible piece of equipment, that can be adapted to use a 7.62 round if required.

5.56 is still a preference in these scenarios, if not even still 9mm for many, is for the control it allows when it comes to civilians and the environment.

"Terrorists" are obviously just looking to cause carnage and damage. Police and military need to think of things like civilians and the environment. Using a 7.62 round in this scenario, by police, would be wreckless as there is poor control over the rounds penetration (round going through a target, injuring another, or a missed shot penetrating the environment causing injury)

Also worth noting where 5.56 came from. The US had a massive influencing decision in terms of the NATO chosen round. The benefit of reduced recoil, better control and the lighter round meaning more ammunition could be carried, was the reason behind the choice of 5.56. But mostly the US having the sway in the decision, as all their manufacturers were providing 5.56 to market and the US army. Most Europeans nations and firearm manufacturers were operating with 7.62

There has been a new calibre of round in discussion for some time now, as the Iraq conflict has shown the 5.56 becoming problematic in dealing with new warefare scenarios, along with domestic environments mind you, where 5.56 rounds can't penetrate the engine block of an oncoming vehicle, say packed with explosives.

Again, us being nerdy, but I don't think firearms are a potential cause. There has been plenty of demonstrations and investigation say for example before the new firearm response unit in the guards gave the go ahead to MP7's, then the arrival of 416's. Sure replacement for the Irish Armies AUG has been on the cards for years. They've had samplings of everything from HK416's to SCARs.

And our specialist firearm units have pretty much everything at their disposal they need, and if not they get it, so I'm told.

heroics

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

In a major crisis, the ARW would almost certainly be called in to take the lead role. Their firepower would be superior to the Gardai's 9mm MP-7 sub-machine guns. One of the outcomes of the Paris attacks was that the French realised the were outgunned by the 7.62mm AK-47 assault rifles versus 9mm pistols and 5.56 carbines. The 7.62 has more range, stopping power, and accuracy.

Frankly, the ARW would be fitter, better trained, more aggressive, better armed, and more experienced in urban combat fighting.

To the best of my knowledge, it was the ARW that shot Dessie O Hare in an ambush. They were also deployed, but not used, during the Mountjoy siege.

The MP7 is not a 9mm sub. It uses the HK 4.6x30mm cartridge. This was designed for better penetration of body Armour.

The ARW use the steyr and hk416 as their main ARs which are both 5.56mm

They use HK417 which is 7.62 but I believe this is used as a DMR.

TheDoc

heroics wrote: »

The MP7 is not a 9mm sub. It uses the HK 4.6x30mm cartridge. This was designed for better penetration of body Armour.

The ARW use the steyr and hk416 as their main ARs which are both 5.56mm

They use HK417 which is 7.62 but I believe this is used as a DMR.

The 41X platform is modular so can shift through a number of configurations quickly, similar to the SCAR. One of the reasons it was picked I'd imagine in the ever changing urban environment and landscape.

corner of hells

And just where have you been ?

People are sitting here waiting on you .

Samuel T. Cogley

AnGaelach wrote: »

What on earth does this have to do with having an intelligence agency, exactly?

More than you could possibly imagine.

Persephone kindness

Frankly I just think I need to be more intelligent. Imma tryin! :P