And so it begins...

unkel

BMW USA sales down since this time last year, 3-series down by 40%

None of the usual reasons can explain this. The market as a whole is about flat in the USA, the market for junior executive / prestige cars is pretty flat. The 5-series has gone up 13% but that's a new model. And the 3-series won't be replaced until some time next year, so could explain maybe 10% or even 20% but not 40%

The reason that could possibly explain this - Tesla Model 3 launching next month?

Will this be the beginning of the slaughter of ICE cars?

Linky

KCross

Its reported BMW recently canned their "i5"

http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/23/bmw-cancels-their-i5-electric-car-plans/

Apparently that was done to focus on electrifying a new platform that can be used in the next version of the 3-series.... they would obviously have had a few months lead knowledge on these figures prompting a change in direction now.

The Model 3 is clearly a big threat to their 3-series which is their biggest selling model in the US (probably worldwide?).

It remains to be seen whether their change in direction now will be enough to halt the rot. Lets hope Model 3 quality its better than what has gone before.

corks finest

KCross wrote: »

Its reported BMW recently canned their "i5"

http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/23/bmw-cancels-their-i5-electric-car-plans/

Apparently that was done to focus on electrifying a new platform that can be used in the next version of the 3-series.... they would obviously have had a few months lead knowledge on these figures prompting a change in direction now.

The Model 3 is clearly a big threat to their 3-series which is their biggest selling model in the US (probably worldwide?).

It remains to be seen whether their change in direction now will be enough to halt the rot. Lets hope Model 3 quality its better than what has gone before.

Could be right,as a hybrid driver,if I'd the bucks,id go all electric

n97 mini

I lived in the US last year for a time. Surprisingly few BMWs there. It's not like Ireland where every other car seems to be a BMW. Domestic brands are king, with (from what I observed) Honda, Toyota, Hyundai and Kia being the most popular import brands. Hyundai in particular was surprisingly popular.

n97 mini

Oh and every major city I was in across the 13 states I visited had a Tesla shop, complete with a heap of Superchargers outside.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

BMW USA sales down since this time last year, 3-series down by 40%

None of the usual reasons can explain this. The market as a whole is about flat in the USA, the market for junior executive / prestige cars is pretty flat. The 5-series has gone up 13% but that's a new model. And the 3-series won't be replaced until some time next year, so could explain maybe 10% or even 20% but not 40%

The reason that could possibly explain this - Tesla Model 3 launching next month?

Will this be the beginning of the slaughter of ICE cars?

Linky

I think you need to take off your EV tinted glasses. German brands have taken a hammering in the US as politics turns to exporting countries to blame for the deindustrialization of the USA. The second figure you need to look at it's the absolute number of sales. Although a huge market, BMW only had a small presence in it. Just winning or losing one big client would seriously throw the figures. It's like my granny saying her Apple tart sales are down 50%this month (she sold two instead of four).

While the odd buyer may have decided to go for a Tesla, based on the data provided it's fanciful in the extreme and a huge jump to get the conclusion that the model 3 has caused this drop. Just to get context, the total number of new registrations in the US in 2017 is in excess of 1.5m -BMW has a small market share.

ELM327

Oh look. Mr. Anti-EV in Anti-EV shocker. :P

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While the odd buyer may have decided to go for a Tesla, based on the data provided it's fanciful in the extreme and a huge jump to get the conclusion that the model 3 has caused this drop. Just to get context, the total number of new registrations in the US in 2017 is in excess of 1.5m -BMW has a small market share.

I don't have figures at hand but I thought BMW had significant market share in the US in its segment which is premium.

Looking at its percentage in the overall market is irrelevant because they don't compete at the low end of the market. Tesla is probably their biggest threat as the S, X and 3 are direct competitors for BMWs biggest sellers X5, 7-series, 3-series.

Does anyone have % figures on a per segment basis?

BoatMad

There does seem to some dispute over figures.

BMW own statement suggests 0.7% YTD , with 11% down in may.

Equally Mercedes figures are up in the USA

It may be simply users switching to merc etc

I don't think it's a model 3 issue per se

( not is there any evidence of a revolt against imports evident in the USA )

KCross

This analysis shows that BMW and Merc are the top 2 in the US for the mid-size premium segment (3-series/C-Class) which is what the Model 3 is going to be competing against.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-sales-2017-q1-premium-mid-sized-segment/

So, I don't buy the "BMW only had a small presence" argument. They will be very apprehensive about Model 3 being released.


The Model S segment shows E-Class well ahead (up 39%) and BMW 5-Series down significantly (32%)

http://carsalesbase.com/us-sales-2017-q1-premium-large-segment/

Just those two segments (the ones Tesla are in) show a shift from BMW to Merc rather than Tesla being the issue.

thierry14

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you need to take off your EV tinted glasses. German brands have taken a hammering in the US as politics turns to exporting countries to blame for the deindustrialization of the USA. The second figure you need to look at it's the absolute number of sales. Although a huge market, BMW only had a small presence in it. Just winning or losing one big client would seriously throw the figures. It's like my granny saying her Apple tart sales are down 50%this month (she sold two instead of four).

While the odd buyer may have decided to go for a Tesla, based on the data provided it's fanciful in the extreme and a huge jump to get the conclusion that the model 3 has caused this drop. Just to get context, the total number of new registrations in the US in 2017 is in excess of 1.5m -BMW has a small market share.

Agree with alot of that

Also petrol/gas in the US is under 50cent a litre in most states

No cost incentive at all to move to EV

$20 fuel and 700km

I wouldn't be buying an EV under those circumstances

It's different in Europe with much higher running costs

BMW just need to make good hybrids there

Water John

I would expect many of the major cities, along with some states to push for the move to EV. Trump and his friends, don't hold sway in all the US.

aliveandkicking

Tesla has pretty much taken the luxury Sedan market in the US. The Model S is outselling BMW, Mercedes and Porsche combined.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls-model-s-leading-us-large-luxury-segment/



If the same thing happens in the Model 3 market segment BMW, Mercedes et al are in for a world of pain. I wouldn't be betting against Elon Musk that's for sure.

BoatMad

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Tesla has pretty much taken the luxury Sedan market in the US. The Model S is outselling BMW, Mercedes and Porsche combined.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls-model-s-leading-us-large-luxury-segment/



If the same thing happens in the Model 3 market segment BMW, Mercedes et al are in for a world of pain. I wouldn't be betting against Elon Musk that's for sure.

I dont think you can extrapolate Tesla against very high end saloon sales then transfer that to a mid range car

1. BMW is a bit player in the USA

2. BMW 3 series in Europe has been steadily loosening ground in Europe since about 2004 , down from 350,000 to 150,000 in 2016. This slide completely predates any Tesla effect.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

I would expect many of the major cities, along with some states to push for the move to EV. Trump and his friends, don't hold sway in all the US.

Trump isn't anti EV, Tesla is creating jobs and Trump is all for it and has even praised Musk for his efforts.

Water John

And Musk just left his advisory committee, because Trump is an idiot.

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh look. Mr. Anti-EV in Anti-EV shocker. :P

Just because I can see through a poor article that makes a gigantic and baseless jump to get to the point it's trying to make does not make me anti EV.

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

And Musk just left his advisory committee, because Trump is an idiot.

Imagine Hillary was president ? :eek:, the U.S would probably be at war with the Russians by now, thank God for Trump voters, they probably prevented WW3 for another while.

I don't think Trump is an idiot for saying he won't send Billions of U.S dollars to countries so they can build coal plants and burn coal and the U.S can't.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because I can see through a poor article that makes a gigantic and baseless jump to get to the point it's trying to make does not make me anti EV.

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

I don't recall you having anything positive to say about EVs and yet you stilll say you support them.

Do you think most people commute more than 150km per day, or would say most people commute less than 150km per day? Speaking about Ireland of course

pajo1981

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Tesla has pretty much taken the luxury Sedan market in the US. The Model S is outselling BMW, Mercedes and Porsche combined.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls-model-s-leading-us-large-luxury-segment/



If the same thing happens in the Model 3 market segment BMW, Mercedes et al are in for a world of pain. I wouldn't be betting against Elon Musk that's for sure.

That graph is meaningless. Model S does not compete against any of those cars. Compare sales against the usual e-segmenters and then get back to me.

Fiery mutant

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because I can see through a poor article that makes a gigantic and baseless jump to get to the point it's trying to make does not make me anti EV.

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

There are other advantages, especially if your company are paying costs for transport. Obviously there are the tax credit, but also road tax, insurance, maintenance costs.

I get a €500 a month travel allowance from work to cover. So in the past where that was used to pay my fuel cost, with no fuel cost, it now pays for my car.

n97 mini

pajo1981 wrote: »

That graph is meaningless. Model S does not compete against any of those cars. Compare sales against the usual e-segmenters and then get back to me.

Hmm. According to Wikipedia the Model S is S-segment whereas the 7 series and S class are F-segment.

However the 6-series is probably S-segment.

Shefwedfan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because I can see through a poor article that makes a gigantic and baseless jump to get to the point it's trying to make does not make me anti EV.

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

Sorry but every post you fire up in negative.

How many people in Ireland commute over 150km per day? I don't know but do you?

I know one person who does a 200km commute each day and he is actually looking at electric to save fuel costs, everyone else is doing less than 75km and they all drive diesel? Does that make sense?

Why would you take the fuel out of equation? I don't understand that.

grogi

goz83 wrote: »

I don't recall you having anything positive to say about EVs and yet you stilll say you support them.

Do you think most people commute more than 150km per day, or would say most people commute less than 150km per day? Speaking about Ireland of course

Speaking of everywhere... 150 km in commuting traffic turns into four hours each day, nobody sane is doing that longer than temporarily...

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

German brands have taken a hammering in the US

No they haven't. Look at the other makes. Mercedes is up. And BMW themselves are only 10% down which is not really any significant indicator of anything going on in a stable market.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you need to take off your EV tinted glasses.

Are you kidding me? BMW has been my favourite car maker since I bought my first BMW, an E34 530i V8 petrol almost 20 years ago. I have almost always owned at least one BMW since then until late last year. I still own a Porsche with a mid engined flat 6 engine that sounds fantastic and it's a brilliant drivers car that I hope to keep forever.

It seems you are sticking your head in the sand. Surely a 40% drop in sales of the 3-series means nothing. Surely EVs are too expensive and only suit some looney environmentalists that need to stop every 50km to re-charge. Surely I'll be driving a diesel for at least another 30 years? Surely Tesla is all over-hyped, they only sell cars to Tesla fanbois and the Model 3 will be a complete failure - another unreliable car not up to scratch and not able to compete with the real cars from Germany?

I don't think I'm wearing rose tinted glasses. But I guess we will have to wait for a year or two to let the car sales statistics prove either you or me wrong.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

No they haven't. Look at the other makes. Mercedes is up. And BMW themselves are only 10% down which is not really any significant indicator of anything going on in a stable market.

German exporters have been taking a hammering in the right wing press in the USA. I would expect to see some of those effects in the car market

unkel wrote: »

Are you kidding me? BMW has been my favourite car maker since I bought my first BMW, an E34 530i V8 petrol almost 20 years ago. I have almost always owned at least one BMW since then until late last year. I still own a Porsche with a mid engined flat 6 engine that sounds fantastic and it's a brilliant drivers car that I hope to keep forever.

Thats great, but it doesn't lend any validity to your argument.

unkel wrote: »

It seems you are sticking your head in the sand. Surely a 40% drop in sales of the 3-series means nothing. Surely EVs are too expensive and only suit some looney environmentalists that need to stop every 50km to re-charge. Surely I'll be driving a diesel for at least another 30 years? Surely Tesla is all over-hyped, they only sell cars to Tesla fanbois and the Model 3 will be a complete failure - another unreliable car not up to scratch and not able to compete with the real cars from Germany?

I don't think I'm wearing rose tinted glasses. But I guess we will have to wait for a year or two to let the car sales statistics prove either you or me wrong.

Of all the things I can be accused of a head in the sand attitude to EV is not one of them. I've always said that the future was EV. What I also did say is that it is an enormous leap to say the fall in 3 series registrations is down to the imminent launch of the model 3. Using percentages to describe sales when you have small market penetration is misleading. All that would take for a large drop percentage in registrations would be for one large car hire company to decide to not have the 3 series on their roster. Of course it could be down to the model 3, but its you that's made the bold statement, so its up to you to back it up.

EV's at present are indeed too expensive and under-perform relative to their ICE peers. Performance-wise today, fundamentally they are inferior. Yes they cost less to run but that advantage is approx. 50% tax and once better EV's get to market that EV running cost will rise to where EV's are no cheaper to run than today's diesels.

Whatever about Tesla being over-hyped, it is indeed overvalued. Much of the battery technology they use doesn't belong to them, but to Panasonic. I don't think the model 3 will fail, as Musk is a salesman on a par with Steve Jobs and there are enough people taken in by this "Tony Stark" image for it to succeed, but there is a real possibility that Tesla will be eclipsed by other manufacturers who have huge manufacturing capability. Much like Apple built the smartphone market, it is Android now that dominates it.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because I can see through a poor article that makes a gigantic and baseless jump to get to the point it's trying to make does not make me anti EV.

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

There is no enormous tax advantage, except the 5k vrt exemption and the low tax rate (which is correct due to 0 tailpipe emissions and that is what tax is based on)
.

They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range.

Who has a bigger commute than that!

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

There is no enormous tax advantage, except the 5k vrt exemption and the low tax rate (which is correct due to 0 tailpipe emissions and that is what tax is based on)
. Who has a bigger commute than that!

The duty on fuel (which is a proxy for road pricing) is an enormous tax advantage. If we equalise taxes on a per km basis and it was costing you 4.5c/km in an EV (3c tax +1.5c electricity) vs 6c in a diesel (3c fuel + 3c tax), how many would choose EV? If we're honest, only the most die hards would. The truth is though EV taxes will have to rise to match 6c/km minimum, otherwise there will be big increase in traffic on the roads.

I hope not many would have a bigger commute than 150km/day. What I was saying really is the EV suits those that drive for an hour to and from work daily. It means they put up a big mileage annually but the trip is a defined point to point within the range of EV but makes maximum use of it.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The duty on fuel (which is a proxy for road pricing) is an enormous tax advantage. If we equalise taxes on a per km basis and it was costing you 4.5c/km in an EV (3c tax +1.5c electricity) vs 6c in a diesel (3c fuel + 3c tax), how many would choose EV? If we're honest, only the most die hards would.

I hope not many would have a bigger commute than 150km/day. What I was saying really is the EV suits those that drive for an hour to and from work daily. It means they put up a big mileage annually but the trip is a defined point to point within the range of EV but makes maximum use of it.

You can't equate tax per liter of fossil fuel to tax per km.
It doesnt work that way, I have owned 8mpg cars and 60 mpg cars, they pay different costs per KM as they pay duty on fuel which is a set cost against a variable MPG.

I'd assume if EV became mass market the price of motor tax will shoot up to like 4k per annum. Or, fast chargers will have 50% taxation included (current rate of duty/tax on fossil fuels is around 60%).


I did a 110-120km round trip for months with no work charging. EV suits those with a 10km commute as much as a 110km one. There's a gen1 EV for sale now for €6.7k, much cheaper than an equivalent ICE.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What I was saying really is the EV suits those that drive for an hour to and from work daily. It means they put up a big mileage annually but the trip is a defined point to point within the range of EV but makes maximum use of it.

So....it suits most people.

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

You can't equate tax per liter of fossil fuel to tax per km.
It doesnt work that way, I have owned 8mpg cars and 60 mpg cars, they pay different costs per KM as they pay duty on fuel which is a set cost against a variable MPG.

I'd assume if EV became mass market the price of motor tax will shoot up to like 4k per annum. Or, fast chargers will have 50% taxation included (current rate of duty/tax on fossil fuels is around 60%).


I did a 110-120km round trip for months with no work charging. EV suits those with a 10km commute as much as a 110km one. There's a gen1 EV for sale now for ?6.7k, much cheaper than an equivalent ICE.

Of course you can equate fuel excise with a per km charge. The idea being the less fuel your car consumes, the less you pay. There has to be a taxation floor though as widespread EV usage at current tax rates would lead to chaos on the roads. This is road pricing and is expected to become a reality in the medium term. Taxing fast chargers won't be any use if the majority do their charging at home (if that will still be allowed in future).

The idea of a E4k road tax is daft. All that would do is price the poor off the road and encourage everyone that does pay to use theirs excessively, to get value.

goz83 wrote: »

So....it suits most people.

No, It doesn't suit people who do a mixture of short journeys but also regularly drive outside range. I tried the Leaf for a weekend test drive and it was a disaster. It almost doubled the journey time.

EV's are good as a second car (generally), and a point to point commuter car if the commute is within range. We straying way off topic though which is that it is entirely groundless to claim that the imminent release of the model 3 has anything to do with the level of sales for the 3 series BMW in the USA.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, It doesn't suit people who do a mixture of short journeys but also regularly drive outside range.

Really? You're now changing what you said:

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

If you take the price of fuel out of the equation (say a company paying your fuel and running costs) then next to no one would choose EV.

As most people have smaller commutes than that (usually much smaller), then an EV would suit most people. I crossed out the rubbish speak.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

Really? You're now changing what you said:



As most people have smaller commutes than that (usually much smaller), then an EV would suit most people. I crossed out the rubbish speak.

There is nothing contradictory in what I posted. EV's make good commuter cars because you can utilise the savings fully. But if you're doing a 10km daily drive but do a Dublin Cork spin every other week then it doesn't suit you, unless you like hanging around chargers.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing contradictory in what I posted. EV's make good commuter cars because you can utilise the savings fully. But if you're doing a 10km daily drive but do a Dublin Cork spin every other week then it doesn't suit you, unless you like hanging around chargers.

And would the majority do that long drive every other week?

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

And would the majority do that long drive every other week?

The majority make enough long journeys that it would inconvenience them enough to rule out electric, as they have done so.

Just because electric suits you doesn't mean it suits everyone else

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

I don't recall you having anything positive to say about EVs and yet you stilll say you support them.

Do you think most people commute more than 150km per day, or would say most people commute less than 150km per day? Speaking about Ireland of course

You don't recall me having anything positive to say about EV's yet quote a post where I say something positive..

I have to wonder do you even read what you're responding to.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The majority make enough long journeys that it would inconvenience them enough to rule out electric, as they have done so.

Just because electric suits you doesn't mean it suits everyone else

That's BS and you know it. The range in a 24kwh Leaf is enough to suit most people for their daily commutes and some other trips. The occasional long drives may be some inconvenience to some drivers, but the problem is the mantality that people have....not the range or ability of the EV. Most people have little, or no information on EVs and the journalism is misleading at best....even from well intentioned journalists.

As an example; a poster yesterday said he wanted to buy an EV, but his wife was against it, unless it could get to the airport and back without stopping. She said if it can't do that, it's not worth it.

So, I asked how often that trip was done per year. Twice, he said. :rolleyes:

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You don't recall me having anything positive to say about EV's yet quote a post where I say something positive..

I have to wonder do you even read what you're responding to.

Your post I quoted on page 2? You call that positive? Are you sure you're reading your own posts?

jimmycrackcorm

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Tesla has pretty much taken the luxury Sedan market in the US. The Model S is outselling BMW, Mercedes and Porsche combined.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls-model-s-leading-us-large-luxury-segment/



If the same thing happens in the Model 3 market segment BMW, Mercedes et al are in for a world of pain. I wouldn't be betting against Elon Musk that's for sure.

This is the first time I've come across Tesla being compared to a luxury brand. I mean it's like comparing an Apple watch to a Rolex.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

That's BS and you know it. The range in a 24kwh Leaf is enough to suit most people for their daily commutes and some other trips. The occasional long drives may be some inconvenience to some drivers, but the problem is the mantality that people have....not the range or ability of the EV. Most people have little, or no information on EVs and the journalism is misleading at best....even from well intentioned journalists.

As an example; a poster yesterday said he wanted to buy an EV, but his wife was against it, unless it could get to the airport and back without stopping. She said if it can't do that, it's not worth it.

So, I asked how often that trip was done per year. Twice, he said. :rolleyes:

Some inconvenience? We have seen posters here giving themselves 3.5-4 hours to travel from North Dublin to Cavan, a journey that should take 1hr 45 at most. Just because you don't value your own time doesn't mean others don't. The range of a 24kWh leaf is pathetic at motorway speeds, that's why I see them being nursed home on the M4 in the evenings, holding up the whole show.

A car should be a travel solution not offer some inconvenience. If I want inconvenience, I'll take public transport.

thierry14

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Some inconvenience? We have seen posters here giving themselves 3.5-4 hours to travel from North Dublin to Cavan, a journey that should take 1hr 45 at most. Just because you don't value your own time doesn't mean others don't. The range of a 24kWh leaf is pathetic at motorway speeds, that's why I see them being nursed home on the M4 in the evenings, holding up the whole show.

A car should be a travel solution not over some inconvenience. If I want inconvenience, I'll take public transport.

How I look at EV's is time

A 24kwh Leaf at motorway speeds lasts like 50 mins, that is pathetic I agree

I would normally do 3 hours driving until I need to stop so I need a 70kwh EV minimum

Even the much hyped model 3 won't meet my needs

I doubt it will be able to drive 3 hours @ 120-140kmh on its 50kwh battery

listermint

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You don't recall me having anything positive to say about EV's yet quote a post where I say something positive..

I have to wonder do you even read what you're responding to.

Probably the most vehimently anti electric poster I've seen in these forums.

I'd nearly say your selling Ice vehicles for a living.

Ford is it? They've dropped the ball massively

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Some inconvenience? We have seen posters here giving themselves 3.5-4 hours to travel from North Dublin to Cavan, a journey that should take 1hr 45 at most. Just because you don't value your own time doesn't mean others don't. The range of a 24kWh leaf is pathetic at motorway speeds, that's why I see them being nursed home on the M4 in the evenings, holding up the whole show.

A car should be a travel solution not over some inconvenience. If I want inconvenience, I'll take public transport.

I already told you that is a ridiculous example of someone who just bought a leaf being over cautious.
I have done that trip at normal speeds with a 15 minute stop in Navan.

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Some inconvenience? We have seen posters here giving themselves 3.5-4 hours to travel from North Dublin to Cavan, a journey that should take 1hr 45 at most. Just because you don't value your own time doesn't mean others don't. The range of a 24kWh leaf is pathetic at motorway speeds, that's why I see them being nursed home on the M4 in the evenings, holding up the whole show.

A car should be a travel solution not over some inconvenience. If I want inconvenience, I'll take public transport.

Crossed out already covered...twice, yet you still use as an example. Should we start using the hyper milers as examples on our end and say that an EV can do X amount of kilometres? On here, we are fair and realistic with distances and we recommend against EV where it doesn't suit. You, on the other hand seem to ring fence a minority type of driver who use up almost all the range available on their commute and save the most money as the only suitable person for an EV. So, again...I call BS on that.

I agree with you that the range of a 24 Leaf is poor at Motorway speeds. However, if it covers the required range, what does it matter? Any vehicle doing speeds over 90kmh is going to use much more energy.

Any car will be an inconvenience at some stage. At least with an EV, those inconveniences can be planned for most of the time. It might mean more stopping over for a top-up than some might like....but we all know what we are buying. With an ICE, far more can go wrong. I have yet to see an EV pulled over at the side of road with the bonnet lid up. Now that's an inconvenience.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

Crossed out already covered...twice, yet you still use as an example. Should we start using the hyper milers as examples on our end and say that an EV can do X amount of kilometres? On here, we are fair and realistic with distances and we recommend against EV where it doesn't suit. You, on the other hand seem to ring fence a minority type of driver who use up almost all the range available on their commute and save the most money as the only suitable person for an EV. So, again...I call BS on that.

I agree with you that the range of a 24 Leaf is poor at Motorway speeds. However, if it covers the required range, what does it matter? Any vehicle doing speeds over 90kmh is going to use much more energy.

Any car will be an inconvenience at some stage. At least with an EV, those inconveniences can be planned for most of the time. It might mean more stopping over for a top-up than some might like....but we all know what we are buying. With an ICE, far more can go wrong. I have yet to see an EV pulled over at the side of road with the bonnet lid up. Now that's an inconvenience.

If you read enough threads here there are plenty of examples of people getting caught out with range and running out of battery. Often times its within a couple of hundred meters of their home. Yet they have to go to the expense of getting a flatbed as you can't push an EV.

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Soarer

@oppenheimer1: why do you frequent the ev thread? All you seem to do is poo-poo them.

I mean, I'm a Liverpool supporter. But I don't go to United threads talking about how tripe they are.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you read enough threads here there are plenty of examples of people getting caught out with range and running out of battery. Often times its within a couple of hundred meters of their home. Yet they have to go to the expense of getting a flatbed as you can't push an EV.

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

Really?
I've seen ICE at the side of the road for 2 hours waiting for the AA with fuel, and being charged for the callout.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

I would normally do 3 hours driving until I need to stop so I need a 70kwh EV minimum

Even the much hyped model 3 won't meet my needs

I doubt it will be able to drive 3 hours @ 120-140kmh on its 50kwh battery

You're entitled to have that as your requirement but for the vast majority in this country they don't need a car to go for 3hrs(without stopping) on a regular basis.

You are at the extreme end of whats required to own an EV. We will welcome you to the EV world in about another 5-8yrs is my guess!

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I hope not many would have a bigger commute than 150km/day. What I was saying really is the EV suits those that drive for an hour to and from work daily. It means they put up a big mileage annually but the trip is a defined point to point within the range of EV but makes maximum use of it.

Based on that would you agree EV's are also good for those who never drive outside the range of the car? I'd argue ALOT of people don't drive more than 150km in a day at any time.

i.e. Primarily urban drivers who have short commutes to work, drop kids to school, shop run etc. Like all those who have small runabouts. Are EV's suitable for all those people (assuming they can get a charge point installed of course)?

We should be encouraging those people to buy EV's, not taking extreme examples and putting those forward as reasons not to buy an EV.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, It doesn't suit people who do a mixture of short journeys but also regularly drive outside range. I tried the Leaf for a weekend test drive and it was a disaster. It almost doubled the journey time.

I agree, if you regularly(several times a week) do journeys outside the range of the car you should not buy one. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

Out of interest, what journey did you do that took twice as long? I've done Cork-Dublin and it didn't double the journey time. You must have used a slow charger or something.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV's are good as a second car (generally), and a point to point commuter car if the commute is within range. We straying way off topic though which is that it is entirely groundless to claim that the imminent release of the model 3 has anything to do with the level of sales for the 3 series BMW in the USA.

I agree, I don't think Model 3 is the reason either. BMW seems to have lost ground to Merc, thats all.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is nothing contradictory in what I posted. EV's make good commuter cars because you can utilise the savings fully. But if you're doing a 10km daily drive but do a Dublin Cork spin every other week then it doesn't suit you, unless you like hanging around chargers.

Even if you have to do Cork-Dublin twice a month its not that big an inconvenience. The 30kWh Leaf and the Ioniq can do that journey with one 25min stop. Of course it would be great to hurtle down the road at 130kmh for 3hrs without stopping but you shouldn't cut off your nose despite your face here.... a 25min stop twice a month isn't a big inconvenience when considering all the other advantages (cheap maintenance, low fuel cost, emissions, nicer to drive etc)


You do seem a little fixated on being able to drive long distances at high speed. Its not the norm. EV's are suitable for a lot more people but until they can get 300+km on a charge they won't switch... fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


I'll take the upsides in the meantime and by the time the rest of the market catches up the govt will have it taxed up to the nose!

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

@oppenheimer1: why do you frequent the ev thread? All you seem to do is poo-poo them.

I mean, I'm a Liverpool supporter. But I don't go to United threads talking about how tripe they are.

Sorry, I didn't realise we were all meant to agree and backslap each other on a discussion forum.

The reason I'm here is because the OP made a completely baseless assertion and I wanted to challenge it.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you read enough threads here there are plenty of examples of people getting caught out with range and running out of battery. Often times its within a couple of hundred meters of their home. Yet they have to go to the expense of getting a flatbed as you can't push an EV.

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

You mightn't be able to push it, but if you tow it, it'll fill itself with electricity! Point to an ICE that'll do that!

Plus, if you run out of diesel, you can't just refill and go. You have to bleed the system. How inconvenient is that?