And so it begins...

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yet they have to go to the expense of getting a flatbed as you can't push an EV.

Flatbed is free with almost all fully comp insurance policies these days. Whether it's an ICE with an empty tank or an EV with an empty battery

For cash flow reasons I topped my previous car up by about €50-€60 (not filling it up), which gave me a range of 180km. My EV has more range than that.

I do a low mileage (below average before I owned an EV), yet even for me, it is cheaper to own my EV (TOC incl. depreciation) than it was to keep driving my high tax worthless banger...

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't realise we were all meant to agree and backslap each other on a discussion forum.

The reason I'm here is because the OP made a completely baseless assertion and I wanted to challenge it.

That's not what you're doing.

What does driving from Dublin to Cavan have to do with BMW sales in the US?

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

How I look at EV's is time

A 24kwh Leaf at motorway speeds lasts like 50 mins, that is pathetic I agree

I would normally do 3 hours driving until I need to stop so I need a 70kwh EV minimum

Even the much hyped model 3 won't meet my needs

I doubt it will be able to drive 3 hours @ 120-140kmh on its 50kwh battery

I regularly do a Gorey Athlone run , around 200km each way

I do it in a 2,5L diesel pickup and /or my 30 kWh leaf, the only difference is the charge time ( the leaf is actually quicker over the road as it handles better and passes better)

best timings are 3 hours for the leaf, 2,38 for the diesel

charge times, 10 minutes in carlow or kilbeggan , depending on direction , 100% charge leaving house or athlone , overnight

Once in 15 months I was delayed at the charger in carlow ( i do the trip most weekends in the summer )

in most cases I buy and drink a coffee , whether in the diesel or the EV and the net actual times are the same

3 hours driving without a brief stop is in my view dangerous

The end result is the EV time and the diesel time are in practice identical

the big difference of course is the pickup consumes 25 euros of diesel each way !!!!!!!

Stick that one up your polluting exhaust pipe

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you read enough threads here there are plenty of examples of people getting caught out with range and running out of battery. Often times its within a couple of hundred meters of their home. Yet they have to go to the expense of getting a flatbed as you can't push an EV.

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

Nissan told me that their free flatbed service has been availed of twice in 2016

" plenty of examples " NOT

BoatMad

I want the EV to succeed, but I won't be taken in by BS saying they are good enough at the moment to replace an ICE car for most drivers. They are good for drivers who have daily commutes in the 75-150km range and the only reason they are good for that is because they enjoy an enormous tax advantage.

There is no tax advantage , the fact is domestic night rate electricity is orders of magnitude cheaper then diesel , which itself is actually biased cheaper in ireland ( and thats about to change )

No one is saying todays EVS are 100% substitute for ICE. what we are saying is that they ARE a substitute for an increasing number of drivers and those numbers will increase as the range of EVs increases and choice is added

its inevitable

resistance IS futile

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Stick that one up your polluting exhaust pipe

This is a great comment and one which I fully agree with!
Especially given the recent emissions!

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The duty on fuel (which is a proxy for road pricing) is an enormous tax advantage. If we equalise taxes on a per km basis and it was costing you 4.5c/km in an EV (3c tax +1.5c electricity) vs 6c in a diesel (3c fuel + 3c tax), how many would choose EV? If we're honest, only the most die hards would. The truth is though EV taxes will have to rise to match 6c/km minimum, otherwise there will be big increase in traffic on the roads.

I hope not many would have a bigger commute than 150km/day. What I was saying really is the EV suits those that drive for an hour to and from work daily. It means they put up a big mileage annually but the trip is a defined point to point within the range of EV but makes maximum use of it.

The long term expectation is that as EV technology improves and EVs dominate , The cost of private car journeys will be equalised ( lets leave aside the debate on mechanisms). Because electricity can be generated by " amateurs " , its certain that the tax take will move from " fuel " and towards usage based pricing ( which is actually fairer)

The primary reason people will buy EVs in the future will be , Environmental concerns , especially in denser areas, The better driving experience, and the power and performance that ONLY an electric motor can deliver

grogi

BoatMad wrote:

The primary reason people will buy EVs in the future will be , Environmental concerns , especially in denser areas, The better driving experience, and the power and performance that ONLY an electric motor can deliver

Minority cares about environment. But in 20 years there will be a huge tax disincentive for buying and using ICE cars.

BoatMad wrote: »

3 hours driving without a brief stop is in my view dangerous

You're exaggerating a bit here and you seem trying to bend the reality to limitations of EV.

When driving whole day - a journey from Berlin to Brussels for instance - you'd need to take stops every 2-3 hours. But doing 4h journey - like Berlin-Nuremberg - is absolutely doable and safe without any stop.

goz83

grogi wrote: »

You're exaggerating a bit here and you seem trying to bend the reality to limitations of EV.

When driving whole day - a journey from Berlin to Brussels for instance - you'd need to take stops every 2-3 hours. But doing 4h journey - like Berlin-Nuremberg - is absolutely doable and safe without any stop.

In fairness, that all depends on the driver. My wife gets fatigued if driving for more than an hour. Moreso if driving an automatic and on a Motorway. I have driven for more than 10 hours without stopping when I was driving to Sweden. I only stopped because my friend needed to use the loo. I would say the average is about 3 hours before fatigue kicks in.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Minority cares about environment. But in 20 years there will be a huge tax disincentive for buying and using ICE cars.

a lot quicker then that , based on EU fines and global commitments, more like 5 years

You're exaggerating a bit here and you seem trying to bend the reality to limitations of EV.

NO, Im comparing a direct practical journey done on the N80 , on a regular basis , I do this journey repeatedly

When driving whole day - a journey from Berlin to Brussels for instance - you'd need to take stops every 2-3 hours. But doing 4h journey - like Berlin-Nuremberg - is absolutely doable and safe without any stop.

we are not in Berlin , we are talking about a journey on an irish National Primary route passing through several urban areas

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

a lot quicker then that , based on EU fines and global commitments, more like 5 years

Isnt there a big EU fine of approx €600million looming in 2020/21, if we don't drastically increase EV usage (or otherwise reduce emissions)

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Isnt there a big EU fine of approx €600million looming in 2020/21, if we don't drastically increase EV usage (or otherwise reduce emissions)

yes, and transport is about the only area, Ireland can achieve significant reductions, as we do not have a heavy industrial base to benefit from carbon trading or emissions control

Shefwedfan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Some inconvenience? We have seen posters here giving themselves 3.5-4 hours to travel from North Dublin to Cavan, a journey that should take 1hr 45 at most. Just because you don't value your own time doesn't mean others don't. The range of a 24kWh leaf is pathetic at motorway speeds, that's why I see them being nursed home on the M4 in the evenings, holding up the whole show.

A car should be a travel solution not over some inconvenience. If I want inconvenience, I'll take public transport.

Your talking a lot of BS....well to be honest most of what you are posting is BS. You seem to have an agenda against electric cars....it has been called out on each thread you post on.....

If you hate electric cars why bother even coming to this forum? and even at that if you do post why not post something decent. Not mindless cr*p that doesnt actually make any sense

I can also post stupid numbers to suit my point, it can take me 30 mins to get from my house(Dublin) to Cavan in electric car. No need to stop or recharge. So you saying it takes you 1.45min means you are a lot slower in petrol/diesel car than me

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

You haven't looked very hard. I know of at least 5 people who have run out of fuel on motorways. I also know I filled my diesel with petrol one morning and that had me on flatbed.

I can honestly say I have never seen an electric car on a flatbed because of running out of charge.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't realise we were all meant to agree and backslap each other on a discussion forum.

The reason I'm here is because the OP made a completely baseless assertion and I wanted to challenge it.

Nobody here to back slap or anything but when you post BS people will call it out.

Out of interest, have you ever actually driven an electric car?

serfboard

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I have yet to see an ICE on a flatbed because it's run out of fuel.

I've seen an ICE on a flatbed because it ran out of fuel.

Mine.

thelikelylad

thierry14 wrote: »

How I look at EV's is time

A 24kwh Leaf at motorway speeds lasts like 50 mins, that is pathetic I agree

I would normally do 3 hours driving until I need to stop so I need a 70kwh EV minimum

Even the much hyped model 3 won't meet my needs

I doubt it will be able to drive 3 hours @ 120-140kmh on its 50kwh battery

I drove for 3.5hrs at the weekend before stopping for a charge, still had another 30-40km left in the tank and that's with 28kWh.

I get what you're saying but do you actually regularly do 360km+ on the motorway in one sitting?

Not sure about the Model 3 but I reckon if they can fit 50kWh into an Ioniq and maintain efficiency then it should be good for 300km+ at those speeds. I suppose the plus with the Model 3 is you'll have access to superchargers so you'll be back on the road faster.

With the 28kWh Ioniq I can do Cork - Newry (360km) at normal speeds in under 4hr 45min according to current traffic on Google Maps, and that's including 2x30min charges. I could even do Cork - Belfast in 5hr 25min with the same 2 stops. That's more than enough for me but I guess it depends on the person and what mileage they are doing. I wouldn't be getting an EV if I was a sales rep up and down the motorway everyday.

oppenheimer1

listermint wrote: »

Probably the most vehimently anti electric poster I've seen in these forums.

I'd nearly say your selling Ice vehicles for a living.

Ford is it? They've dropped the ball massively

Nice personal attack there, thanks I'm not anti electric.

If you believe something, don't nearly say it, say it. I'd have more respect for that even though its wrong.

KCross wrote: »

You're entitled to have that as your requirement but for the vast majority in this country they don't need a car to go for 3hrs(without stopping) on a regular basis.

You are at the extreme end of whats required to own an EV. We will welcome you to the EV world in about another 5-8yrs is my guess!





Based on that would you agree EV's are also good for those who never drive outside the range of the car? I'd argue ALOT of people don't drive more than 150km in a day at any time.

i.e. Primarily urban drivers who have short commutes to work, drop kids to school, shop run etc. Like all those who have small runabouts. Are EV's suitable for all those people (assuming they can get a charge point installed of course)?

We should be encouraging those people to buy EV's, not taking extreme examples and putting those forward as reasons not to buy an EV.




I agree, if you regularly(several times a week) do journeys outside the range of the car you should not buy one. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

Out of interest, what journey did you do that took twice as long? I've done Cork-Dublin and it didn't double the journey time. You must have used a slow charger or something.




I agree, I don't think Model 3 is the reason either. BMW seems to have lost ground to Merc, thats all.




Even if you have to do Cork-Dublin twice a month its not that big an inconvenience. The 30kWh Leaf and the Ioniq can do that journey with one 25min stop. Of course it would be great to hurtle down the road at 130kmh for 3hrs without stopping but you shouldn't cut off your nose despite your face here.... a 25min stop twice a month isn't a big inconvenience when considering all the other advantages (cheap maintenance, low fuel cost, emissions, nicer to drive etc)


You do seem a little fixated on being able to drive long distances at high speed. Its not the norm. EV's are suitable for a lot more people but until they can get 300+km on a charge they won't switch... fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


I'll take the upsides in the meantime and by the time the rest of the market catches up the govt will have it taxed up to the nose!

Soarer wrote: »

You mightn't be able to push it, but if you tow it, it'll fill itself with electricity! Point to an ICE that'll do that!


Plus, if you run out of diesel, you can't just refill and go. You have to bleed the system. How inconvenient is that?

Nissan states that you cannot tow a leaf unless the front wheels are off the ground. What that guy did would have invalidated his warranty.

unkel wrote: »

Flatbed is free with almost all fully comp insurance policies these days. Whether it's an ICE with an empty tank or an EV with an empty battery

For cash flow reasons I topped my previous car up by about ?50-?60 (not filling it up), which gave me a range of 180km. My EV has more range than that.

I've yet to come across a business that's stayed in business by doing things for free. The cost of breakdown cover is included in the premium.

You must have been driving an awful guzzler if you could only get 180km from ?60, that would give me 1400km in mine.

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no tax advantage , the fact is domestic night rate electricity is orders of magnitude cheaper then diesel , which itself is actually biased cheaper in ireland ( and thats about to change )

No one is saying todays EVS are 100% substitute for ICE. what we are saying is that they ARE a substitute for an increasing number of drivers and those numbers will increase as the range of EVs increases and choice is added

its inevitable

resistance IS futile

The thing is, despite the personal attacks at me here is that I fully agree that EV is the future of motoring. I don't deny this. My point really is that the current EV crop are not great and are a compromised driving experience. They are great as a second car and great for point to point commuting, but mixed distance driving ICE is better. Some could live with the compromise, but seeing as they have such a tiny market penetration the majority agree with me.

I have said in other threads that I will buy an EV at some point in the future no doubt and was at one point close to buying a Leaf as a second car (circumstances changed where the second car wasn't required) but the technology isn't there yet. I've also said that if your driving patterns suit it you should go in now as the tax advantages and savings won't last. I am however cautious about making recommendations particularly for low capacity vehicles as people could end up with vehicles that burn them and put them off the EV for a long time

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you hate electric cars why bother even coming to this forum? and even at that if you do post why not post something decent. Not mindless cr*p that doesnt actually make any sense

I can also post stupid numbers to suit my point, it can take me 30 mins to get from my house(Dublin) to Cavan in electric car. No need to stop or recharge. So you saying it takes you 1.45min means you are a lot slower in petrol/diesel car than me



You haven't looked very hard. I know of at least 5 people who have run out of fuel on motorways. I also know I filled my diesel with petrol one morning and that had me on flatbed.

I can honestly say I have never seen an electric car on a flatbed because of running out of charge.



Nobody here to back slap or anything but when you post BS people will call it out.

Out of interest, have you ever actually driven an electric car?

Yes I have driven an electric car, the 24kWh Leaf.

The 3.5-4hr planned journey time wasn't mine but another poster here. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103055025&postcount=201

And why come to the forum, well isn't it all about discussion? It isn't much of a debate if you all agree is it? There are important compromises in owning an EV that all to often get glossed over here. The limited range (sure its only a half hour stop, and you can get a coffee too) the inability to tow (sure how often do you need to tow? get a hire car for that week with the caravan and think of the SAVINGS!), the frustration with chargers and poor infrastructure (it will get better!) are all genuine reasons to think twice before going EV when making what is for most people their second largest purchase.

ELM327

If you could just stop citing that damn leaf driver who on their first long trip was too cautious.
Maybe then we could possibly take the rest of your post seriously.


You have been told multiple times that the one post you keep quoting is not representative of EV driving.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The 3.5-4hr planned journey time wasn't mine but another poster here. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103055025&postcount=201
.

If you are going to quote me, at least quote the full piece. I had the car a week. It was my first drive outside of the M50 and I wanted to make sure I could do it.

If you read on, you will see that I done it with ease and had battery remaining at destination after one stop in navan that I stopped for too long at, again as it was my first trip.

Don't use me as your scapegoat.

Idbatterim

If I was doing big mileage, I would happily drive a bit slower given the massive savings to be made with electric!

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Nissan states that you cannot tow a leaf unless the front wheels are off the ground. What that guy did would have invalidated his warranty.

So you nit-pick on the fact he'd invalidate his warranty and conveniently ignore what he was actually able to do.
My warranty is over in my car. If I were to run out of charge, do you think you'd see me on a flat bed? Unlike a diesel that's run out of fuel/slipped a timing belt/clogged a DPF?

oppenheimer1 wrote:

You must have been driving an awful guzzler if you could only get 180km from ?60, that would give me 1400km in mine.

What car do you drive that gives over 80mpg?

oppenheimer1 wrote:

The thing is, despite the personal attacks at me here is that I fully agree that EV is the future of motoring. I don't deny this. My point really is that the current EV crop are not great and are a compromised driving experience. They are great as a second car and great for point to point commuting, but mixed distance driving ICE is better. Some could live with the compromise, but seeing as they have such a tiny market penetration the majority agree with me.

The majority are put off by the scare mongering that goes on. The majority don't drive more than 100kms in a single sitting daily. They don't even do that weekly. I'd actually go as far as to say the majority of people wouldn't do a 100km single journey every month. So why wouldn't an Ioniq, that'll easily do 200kms+ on a single charge at any legal speed, suit the majority?
I do the school run every day with the kids, and the vast majority of parents dropping are stay at home moms, or dads heading to the city (and surrounding areas) to work. They're all travelling less than 30 miles per day. Are you trying to tell me that a 24kWh Leaf wouldn't suit their daily driving needs? *

The problem is the perception of electric cars. There was another poster here the other day telling us to "look forward to our batteries clapping out in the future". This was the same poster that was driving a 13 year old Audi diesel with 200k miles on the clock! And he genuinely thought his car was more reliable than an EV!

That's the mentality you're dealing with. And I know what I'm talking about, as I delayed buying an EV for 2 years because of the "what if I need to go on a long journey" syndrome. But guess what? I haven't needed to go anywhere! And my circa. 60 miles range Leaf suits me just fine.

* - Edit: I'm not the only one that thinks it. 18 months ago there were no EVs in the school. At the last count, there are 5 Leaf owners.

unkel

Idbatterim wrote: »

If I was doing big mileage, I would happily drive a bit slower given the massive savings to be made with electric!

The thing is, most EV owners don't need to drive a bit slower most of the time, unless they want to make a journey that's pushing to the limit of the range of the car.

Most of the time, you can drive it like you stole it and it still costs nothing

In my previous car, every time I put my foot down to the metal, it cost me €1. In an EV it wouldn't even cost €0.01. I've done 3,500km now in exactly 2 months of ownership and I've spent less than €10 on electricity

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

The thing is, most EV owners don't need to drive a bit slower most of the time, unless they want to make a journey that's pushing to the limit of the range of the car.

Most of the time, you can drive it like you stole it and it still costs nothing

In my previous car, every time I put my foot down to the metal, it cost me ?1. In an EV it wouldn't even cost ?0.01. I've done 3,500km now in exactly 2 months of ownership and I've spent less than ?10 on electricity

Yeah but, yeah but....it doesn't suit the majority!

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I've yet to come across a business that's stayed in business by doing things for free. The cost of breakdown cover is included in the premium.

Nope. The cost is included in everybody's premium. If you call the breakdown cover 5 times a year, you will still pay the exact same premium as your neighbour who never calls them.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You must have been driving an awful guzzler if you could only get 180km from ?60

Aye my last ICE banger was a 2 tonne Jaguar 3l petrol that didn't even do 20mpg. All the other family cars I have owned typically did 20-25mpg (Dublin area traffic congestion, short trips, city centre commute). The funny thing is that in an EV that kinda driving pattern is good for efficiency, not bad

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The thing is, despite the personal attacks at me here is that I fully agree that EV is the future of motoring. I don't deny this. My point really is that the current EV crop are not great and are a compromised driving experience. They are great as a second car and great for point to point commuting, but mixed distance driving ICE is better. Some could live with the compromise, but seeing as they have such a tiny market penetration the majority agree with me.

EV isn't for everyone yet. The current crop are only a compromise if you buy without researching. I see no compromise in my EV. I don't depend on the public infrastructure and its a much nicer drive than any similar ICE car.

With respect, a significant % of ICE owners could switch to todays crop of EV's with no compromise but its negative press, BS and fear of the unknown that holds them back as opposed to "the majority agree with you".

I wholeheartedly agree if you regularly do long journeys then stick with ICE until longer range EV's come in, but again you are fixated on that cohort of users who are not the majority at all. Do you think every 1.0L petrol runabout is hurtling up and down the motorways at 120kmh?!

We need the middle ground here which is that there are real issues that you bring up and are undeniable but that is not a reason to not recommend EV's for those that are suitable today.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There are important compromises in owning an EV that all to often get glossed over here. The limited range (sure its only a half hour stop, and you can get a coffee too) the inability to tow (sure how often do you need to tow? get a hire car for that week with the caravan and think of the SAVINGS!), the frustration with chargers and poor infrastructure (it will get better!) are all genuine reasons to think twice before going EV when making what is for most people their second largest purchase.

True, there are real issues to consider. A small bit of research and honest answers from real owners are all that is required. There does not have to be any compromises if you buy the right car.

oinkely

I think we need a 7 seater decent looking EV with a 150km range and then the mums/dads of the country will be all over them. At the moment the vast majority of kid transporters are diesel, even trying to find a petrol one is not that easy.

I can't see why there isn't one yet.

BoatMad

The thing is, despite the personal attacks at me here is that I fully agree that EV is the future of motoring. I don't deny this. My point really is that the current EV crop are not great and are a compromised driving experience. They are great as a second car and great for point to point commuting, but mixed distance driving ICE is better. Some could live with the compromise, but seeing as they have such a tiny market penetration the majority agree with me.

The majority have not taken a decision , so they do not agree with you . Its takes time to effect such change, the experience in Norway where 40% of all new cars sold are now EVs, ( in a big country ) shows you with the right education and incentives, many people would opt for such a vehicle

ignorance is not a decision

Of course EVs are a " compromised driving experience " , perhaps however I might suggest that its a " different experience "

we are not going ti wake up in the morning and find some sort of EV tipping point, Over they next 5 years they will just be get better and better and more and more people will make the switch.

There will always be a cohort that point out some drawback , but every mode of transport has drawbacks , the fact is most people are not affected by them or can live with them, because of the benefits. hence thats how change occurs

I've also said that if your driving patterns suit it you should go in now as the tax advantages and savings won't last.

A nonsense statement , as you ( or I ) have no idea as to what incentives there will be long term , and anyway whats long term,

The limited range (sure its only a half hour stop, and you can get a coffee too) the inability to tow (sure how often do you need to tow? get a hire car for that week with the caravan and think of the SAVINGS!), the frustration with chargers and poor infrastructure (it will get better!) are all genuine reasons to think twice before going EV when making what is for most people their second largest purchase.

You are massively guilty of selective arguments
"towing"
firstly most cars ( like the majority ) have no ability to tow , as they are not fitted with towbars. Hence this is a minority situation

secondly EV technology can of course "tow" in fact electric motors are much better at towing then ICE . as battery range extends the ability to tow will be apparent
You present the argument as if EV cant tow , thats nonsense ( see Model X)

"limited range "

Thats a here and now argument , within 5 years that argument will have almost disappeared

" the frustration with chargers and poor infrastructure "
This is over stated, we tend to hear only about the whingers , you dont here from the majority , who have no real issues

unkel

Here's Nyland pulling a boat up a mountain (>500km trip, >1000m elevation, trailer 2,250kg)

Total combo the guts of 5 tonnes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akONJfTO2W8

Hope he has the correct license for it

No clutch is being burnt in the making of this clip

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

The majority have not taken a decision , so they do not agree with you . Its takes time to effect such change, the experience in Norway where 40% of all new cars sold are now EVs, ( in a big country ) shows you with the right education and incentives, many people would opt for such a vehicle

ignorance is not a decision

It's a fairly big claim to say that new car buyers don't know about what's in the market. You couldn't miss the Ioniq advertising and yet EV is still a tiny percentage of sales. Yes sales are growing because they are getting better, and when they are good enough people will move. It's not anti EV to state that they need to get better.

BoatMad wrote: »

Of course EVs are a " compromised driving experience " , perhaps however I might suggest that its a " different experience "

we are not going ti wake up in the morning and find some sort of EV tipping point, Over they next 5 years they will just be get better and better and more and more people will make the switch.

There will always be a cohort that point out some drawback , but every mode of transport has drawbacks , the fact is most people are not affected by them or can live with them, because of the benefits. hence thats how change occurs

And thank God for that cohort, because everyone should be fully informed, warts and all.

BoatMad wrote: »

A nonsense statement , as you ( or I ) have no idea as to what incentives there will be long term , and anyway whats long term,

We can be certain that the free public charging, VRT rebate and free charger installation will be dropped. We can also be fairly confident that a method of per km driven road usage charge will be introduced.

BoatMad wrote: »

You are massively guilty of selective arguments
"towing"
firstly most cars ( like the majority ) have no ability to tow , as they are not fitted with towbars. Hence this is a minority situation

secondly EV technology can of course "tow" in fact electric motors are much better at towing then ICE . as battery range extends the ability to tow will be apparent
You present the argument as if EV cant tow , thats nonsense ( see Model X)

Sure the model x can tow, a $70k+ car is a great example but how far will it get?

BoatMad wrote: »

"limited range "

Thats a here and now argument , within 5 years that argument will have almost disappeared

Come back to me in 5 years so.

BoatMad wrote: »

" the frustration with chargers and poor infrastructure "
This is over stated, we tend to hear only about the whingers , you dont here from the majority , who have no real issues

More than one or two posters here have had a squeaky bum moment with public chargers. Any journeys requiring public charging needs a planned stop and a planned backup.

There's nothing really controversial in the points I'm making. EV's great as a commuter car and as a second car and indeed that's what most posters here use them for. I would be hesitant in recommending one yet as a primary vehicle for a family unless of course you don't stray out of range too often.

I myself would need a 500km range before I could consider one as a primary vehicle

Shefwedfan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's a fairly big claim to say that new car buyers don't know about what's in the market. You couldn't miss the Ioniq advertising and yet EV is still a tiny percentage of sales. Yes sales are growing because they are getting better, and when they are good enough people will move. It's not anti EV to state that they need to get better.


And thank God for that cohort, because everyone should be fully informed, warts and all.


We can be certain that the free public charging, VRT rebate and free charger installation will be dropped. We can also be fairly confident that a method of per km driven road usage charge will be introduced.

Sure the model x can tow, a $70k+ car is a great example but how far will it get?


Come back to me in 5 years so.


More than one or two posters here have had a squeaky bum moment with public chargers. Any journeys requiring public charging needs a planned stop and a planned backup.

There's nothing really controversial in the points I'm making. EV's great as a commuter car and as a second car and indeed that's what most posters here use them for. I would be hesitant in recommending one yet as a primary vehicle for a family unless of course you don't stray out of range too often.

I myself would need a 500km range before I could consider one as a primary vehicle

Too much rubbish.....

Easiest way to resolve. Just hide all posts :P

Next post will be Electric car doesn't have the pulling power of a tractor or some similar idiotic statement....

n97 mini

It's getting like the main motors forum on this thread.

serfboard

BoatMad wrote: »

There will always be a cohort that point out some drawback , but every mode of transport has drawbacks

It would be very interesting to read a late 19th century boards-type discussion on "motor cars", which had less range than a horse and you had to use petroleum, and where the hell were you supposed to get that?

I tell you, these "motor cars" will never catch on.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I myself would need a 500km range before I could consider one as a primary vehicle

..and then when the 500 km is common it will be 1000 km. "I want to do a 1000 km return trip without a coffee break daily."

ELM327

serfboard wrote: »

It would be very interesting to read a late 19th century boards-type discussion on "motor cars", which had less range than a horse and you had to use petroleum, and where the hell were you supposed to get that?

I tell you, these "motor cars" will never catch on.

Trains not powered by coal, they will never catch on.
Phones without cables... Wireless radio...etc etc

oppenheimer1

samih wrote: »

..and then when the 500 km is common it will be 1000 km. "I want to do a 1000 km return trip without a coffee break daily."

Whatever. Interesting you can't debate without making a personal dig. :rolleyes:

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whatever. Interesting you can't debate without making a personal dig. :rolleyes:

What car do you drive?

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

What car do you drive?

Irrelevant. This is a forum, not an AMA.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Irrelevant. This is a forum, not an AMA.

Oh, you're one of them?

You previously mentioned you can do 1400kms for ?60 worth of fuel. So I'm wondering what car does that.

You've also previously mentioned that this is a forum for discussion, so I'd like to discuss your car.

I'm not interested in you in the slightest.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Oh, you're one of them?

You previously mentioned you can do 1400kms for ?60 worth of fuel. So I'm wondering what car does that.

You've also previously mentioned that this is a forum for discussion, so I'd like to discuss your car.

I'm not interested in you in the slightest.

Open a thread on me and my car so.

Can't debate without making it personal. Sad.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

samih wrote: »

..and then when the 500 km is common it will be 1000 km. "I want to do a 1000 km return trip without a coffee break daily."

Whatever. Interesting you can't debate without making a personal dig. :rolleyes:

I'm very sorry oppenheimer1, won't do it again. I don't know what type of driving you personally do to need the 500 km daily range. In the case of my family our typical weekend daily range seems to be around 90 km and during the week even less so I definitely would not want to pay say extra €5k to upgrade a 300 km car to a 500 km car for >300 km trips which happen maybe 4 times a year.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Open a thread on me and my car so.

Can't debate without making it personal. Sad.

Who made what personal?

I've noticed that when you've nothing to say, you revert to people being "personal".

So you're not going to tell us what car you drive, yet you've no problem picking faults with our cars in a subforum dedicated to our cars?

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

What car do you drive?

He has already said he owns two diesels.
And claims to have driven a leaf, but if he states the NEDC range is achievable, then Q.E.D. he has not so much as sniffed a leaf.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

He has already said he owns two diesels.

Didn't see that.

But he also mentioned getting 1400km to ?60 fuel. So if diesel is ?1.20 a litre, his car is doing 80mpg.

So I'd like to know what car is doing 80mpg, as that's seriously impressive.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

Didn't see that.

But he also mentioned getting 1400km to ?60 fuel. So if diesel is ?1.20 a litre, his car is doing 80mpg.

So I'd like to know what car is doing 80mpg, as that's seriously impressive.

Probably a VW bluemotion diesel, where the NEDC consumption is 80mpg!

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Who made what personal?

I've noticed that when you've nothing to say, you revert to people being "personal".

So you're not going to tell us what car you drive, yet you've no problem picking faults with our cars in a subforum dedicated to our cars?

Correct. Not so much picking faults but bringing a dose of reality to the discussion.

If you don't want other viewpoints perhaps a private forum would be better.

You don't know where I get my fuel or the price I pay . Typically I get 4.8l/100km.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Correct. Not so much picking faults but bringing a dose of reality to the discussion.

If you don't want other viewpoints perhaps a private forum would be better.

You don't know where I get my fuel or the price I pay . Typically I get 4.8l/100km.

There's nobody that frequents this forum requiring a dose of reality. Most of the posters here have put their money where their mouth is and bought an EV. So we're all well aware of the pros and cons of EV ownership. We're all more than happy to tell prospective owners of the details of ownership, and will help them as best we can with everything Ev related, up to and including sourcing a car.
You, on the other hand, haven't a clue about EV ownership, and do nothing but disregard the viability of current EVs.

So, personally, I think you bring absolutely nothing but argument and hearsay to the discussion.

And 4.8l/100km won't give you 1400kms for €60.

josip

goz83 wrote: »

... I have driven for more than 10 hours without stopping when I was driving to Sweden....

Across the UK? How did you manage that?
5-6 hours was my average when sailing out of Harwich.

unkel

samih wrote: »

I don't know what type of driving you personally do to need the 500 km daily range.

I wonder how many people in Ireland drive 500km per day in their private car. That's over 180k km. My guess? Not a single person in this country.

unkel

josip wrote: »

Across the UK? How did you manage that?
5-6 hours was my average when sailing out of Harwich.

My guess is through FR or BE or NL / Germany / Denmark / Sweden. From the boat in NL to Stockholm is at least 1,500km

goz83

josip wrote: »

Across the UK? How did you manage that?
5-6 hours was my average when sailing out of Harwich.

Dublin to Liverpool by Ferry and drove through UK to the Tunnel. Drove France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and into Eslov in Sweden. My friend took over in parts of the UK and just before getting into Sweden.

I then drove the whole journey home myself two days later.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I wonder how many people in Ireland drive 500km per day in their private car. That's over 180k km. My guess? Not a single person in this country.

I wouldnt even think most taxi drivers would hit that mark