And so it begins...

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

I wouldnt even think most taxi drivers would hit that mark

No way. 500km over 8 hours of CONSTANT driving would require average of 60kmh. Unless the driver is driving non-stop Cork to Galway, he will not hit that figure...

More realistic calculation - 50000km a year, working 250 days in year in the car - average 200km/day.

Gumbo

Guys, I don't know why you reply to a guy that spends all his time in After Hours.

Windup merchant and trolling would be the best use of the posts so far.

He has been caught out so many times*, but comes back with a different argument, classic signs of a troll or wind up merchant.

*1400km for €60 ROFL

ELM327

kceire wrote: »

Guys, I don't know why you reply to a guy that spends all his time in After Hours.

Windup merchant and trolling would be the best use of the posts so far.

He has been caught out so many times*, but comes back with a different argument, classic signs of a troll or wind up merchant.

*1400km for €60 ROFL

This forum is usually so sedate and windup merchant free so I guess it was easy to be suckered in I suppose.

Should have known better than to listen to someone claiming the NEDC range was real!

KCross

I'll give him this.... he does a good job of highlighting(bordering on trolling) the deficiencies and tbf there are deficiencies with EV for some people who do a lot of long distance driving and therefore they shouldn't buy an EV yet.

He did say:

I've also said that if your driving patterns suit it you should go in now as the tax advantages and savings won't last.

Where I think he is wrong, or doesn't realise, is that the "driving pattern" that he refers in the current EV's (28kWh+) is not a niche/small sector of the population. It is ready for easily 30+% of the market.

The remainder (who want 500km range :rolleyes:) will come in time but they will just have to wait longer. As I keep saying.... they can keep waiting, I'll keep saving!


Forgetting about incentives, they have 30% EV penetration in Norway. Free tolls and reduced VAT etc won't make you buy a car that doesn't work for you so clearly EV's work for a significant portion of the population over there. Its a combination of things that is required to get people to switch... choice, education, better charging infrastructure and initially monetary incentives.

Dizzz

grogi wrote: »

Speaking of everywhere... 150 km in commuting traffic turns into four hours each day, nobody sane is doing that longer than temporarily...

Not true, I commute over 200km daily (204km to be exact:p). I have done for 2 years & will continue to for the forseeable future. I spend somewhere between 2 to 2.5 hours in the car a day.

I've a F10 520D (getting 5.8 - 6.0l/100km) but definitely interested in the way EVs are going. I worked for Audi previously & was involved with the E-Tron program but it's far from where it needs to be. The long term maintenance is a long time scare though. Ask about the price of replacement battery packs and see how readily available the answer is.... :eek:

Gumbo

Dizzz wrote: »

Not true, I commute over 200km daily (204km to be exact:p). I have done for 2 years & will continue to for the forseeable future. I spend somewhere between 2 to 2.5 hours in the car a day.

I've a F10 520D (getting 5.8 - 6.0l/100km) but definitely interested in the way EVs are going. I worked for Audi previously & was involved with the E-Tron program but it's far from where it needs to be. The long term maintenance is a long time scare though. Ask about the price of replacement battery packs and see how readily available the answer is.... :eek:

That's not an issue for full EV's though.
By the same scare, how much is a new engine in your F10 if/when the timing chain goes.

Dizzz

Dizzz wrote: »

grogi wrote: »

Speaking of everywhere... 150 km in commuting traffic turns into four hours each day, nobody sane is doing that longer than temporarily...

Not true, I commute over 200km daily (204km to be exact:p). I have done for 2 years & will continue to for the forseeable future. I spend somewhere between 2 to 2.5 hours in the car a day.

I've a F10 520D (getting 5.8 - 6.0l/100km) but definitely interested in the way EVs are going. I worked for Audi previously & was involved with the E-Tron program but it's far from where it needs to be. The long term maintenance is a long time scare though. Ask about the price of replacement battery packs and see how readily available the answer is.... :eek:

The Nissan Leaf battery pack is the only known entity and it costs approx. 6000 to replace including the labour. In your case the next wave of EVs will save you bucketful of money.

If you commute 5 days a week you do whopping 1020 km a week. Over a year of say 46 weeks that's 46900 km commute only. At 5.8 l/100km that's approx. 2720 l of diesel which at 1.20 per liter equals to over €3200 per year excluding the cost of other driving.

The electric car at high motorway speed would cost roughly (at 20 kWh/100 km and 7 c/kWh) €660 on electricity. With the balance you could replace the battery pack after 2 years/100000 km (which would not be needed though even in the case of Leaf as seen by C&C taxis, Cornwall).

zilog_jones

Soarer wrote: »

The majority are put off by the scare mongering that goes on. The majority don't drive more than 100kms in a single sitting daily. They don't even do that weekly. I'd actually go as far as to say the majority of people wouldn't do a 100km single journey every month. So why wouldn't an Ioniq, that'll easily do 200kms+ on a single charge at any legal speed, suit the majority?
I do the school run every day with the kids, and the vast majority of parents dropping are stay at home moms, or dads heading to the city (and surrounding areas) to work. They're all travelling less than 30 miles per day. Are you trying to tell me that a 24kWh Leaf wouldn't suit their daily driving needs? *

I think the thing here is the difference between Dublin vs. the rest of the country. The large majority of people I know in Cork are no further away than 20 km from work (e.g. city centre to Carrigaline, one of the larger suburb towns), whereas there are many people in the Dublin commuter belt doing over twice that or more (madness IMO) - which does push the safe single-charge limits of the lower range EVs currently available (24 kWh Leaf).

An EV would suit the large majority of commuters in say Cork or Limerick, but I'm not so sure about Dublin.

And I also know a lot of people who do fairly regular long trips, e.g. "going home" every few weekends. That's what put me off going for an EV (the only reasonable choice in my budget was a 24 kWh Leaf) so I went for a PHEV which covers my short commute. Once range is up to about 300km I'd be much more likely to buy an EV - being able to do a round trip to Limerick (+other short journeys) on a single charge would be where the tipping point for me.

TBH I think some people here are being unnecessarily hostile towards oppenheimer1. Sure nobody has all the facts, nobody's perfect, and it's understandable to take a pessimistic POV towards emerging technology, but it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more civil...

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

I think the thing here is the difference between Dublin vs. the rest of the country. The large majority of people I know in Cork are no further away than 20 km from work (e.g. city centre to Carrigaline, one of the larger suburb towns), whereas there are many people in the Dublin commuter belt doing over twice that or more (madness IMO) - which does push the safe single-charge limits of the lower range EVs currently available (24 kWh Leaf).

An EV would suit the large majority of commuters in say Cork or Limerick, but I'm not so sure about Dublin.

Maybe you are right for a 24kWh Leaf. But in a 28kWh+ car (Leaf, Ioniq, Zoe) do you still think that?

Draw a circle ~80km's out from Dublin (Portlaoise, Dundalk, Mullingar, Arklow, Carlow)... you should be able to do that commute everyday from just home charging in a 28+kWh car. Even reduce it to 50km's... thats still a lot of commuter towns.

zilog_jones wrote: »

TBH I think some people here are being unnecessarily hostile towards oppenheimer1. Sure nobody has all the facts, nobody's perfect, and it's understandable to take a pessimistic POV towards emerging technology, but it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more civil...

I think its the extreme examples being put forward as reasons not to buy are the problem. A bit more balance is required rather than generalised statements like EV's are a compromise, it doubles your journey time, EV owners are just looking for more freebies etc... tbf, if you throw statements like that out you're going to get some backlash!

If you were currently suitable to buy an EV today and you read his posts it would give a very negative view that isn't justified. Point out the deficiencies but also have balance and point out what is good. A bit of positivity now and again would help!

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

And I also know a lot of people who do fairly regular long trips, e.g. "going home" every few weekends.

As soon as I hear that mentioned and the word "Donegal", I'm always the first to say an EV is not for them yet. Not so much the distance but the lack of fast chargers is the problem. In an Ioniq you could go from Wexford to Donegal at the speed limit with only one 30 minute stop. If that stop was right where you wanted it to be. And it isn't.

Edit - you probably would make it with the one stop in Navan - silly me

CalamariFritti

The thing with EVs is everybody acts like they have no emissions. Mostly though they simply have emissions elsewhere. Unless we have solar/wind/nuclear in play which in many countries we do not.

And even then. Those solar panels / wind mills have a fairly hefty carbon bill during production, car batteries need to be produced. Chemicals elements involved are rare and not without risks either. I'd like to see solid actual figures on energy bills ICE vs EV that takes all that into account. Otherwise we'd be just walking into another fad possibly.

Simply saying my car emits nothing is outright silly.

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

he also mentioned getting 1400km to ?60 fuel. So if diesel is ?1.20 a litre, his car is doing 80mpg.

According to pumps.ie the cheapest diesel is 119.9c, so 79mpg or 3.57l/100km

He must own a '01-'05 Audi A2 1.2TDI so. The only car that could ever do that economy. And on paper only. Was it ever sold here or in the UK though?

Maybe if you drive this special Audi nicknamed "3l car" under 90km/h with a bit of hypermiling you could make it. Nice wee car, oppenheimer1, I always liked them :pac:

unkel

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Simply saying my car emits nothing is outright silly.

Nobody says that. EVs emit nothing locally, but obviously the energy needs to come from somewhere

A few major benefits though:

-no local emission near where people are
-far more efficient than ICE so overall use of energy is much lower
-you can clean up the source of the electricity later (there is actually already a lot of wind in Ireland, right at this very moment almost 30% of all electricity used is wind, but almost no solar in Ireland yet, which needs to change)

CalamariFritti

unkel wrote: »

Nobody says that. EVs emit nothing locally, but obviously the energy needs to come from somewhere

A few major benefits though:

-no local emission near where people are
-far more efficient than ICE so overall use of energy is much lower
-you can clean up the source of the electricity later (there is actually already a lot of wind in Ireland, but almost no solar, which will change)

I agree. Centrally produced electricity is probably electricity porduced in a much more efficient way. However replacing ICE cars, production lines, everything will cost energy and emissions in a big way, too.

Batteries are a major issue. Current technology is nowhere near being sustainable or workable for an all encompassing switch.

The obvious gain will have to be very big in order to blindly jump on a possibly short sighted band wagon full on.

In principle I totally agree. This is a major issue if not the major issue wrt climate control. Progress and delving into alternatives is at least progress which is good. Not sure today's EVs are the answer though.

listermint

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I agree. Centrally produced electricity is probably electricity porduced in a much more efficient way. However replacing ICE cars, production lines, everything will cost energy and emissions in a big way, too.

Batteries are a major issue. Current technology is nowhere near being sustainable or workable for all an all encompassing switch.

The obvious gain will have to be very big in order to blindly jump on a possibly short sighted band wagon full on.

In principle I totally agree. This is a major issue if the major issue wrt climate control. Progress and delving into alternatives is at least progress which is good. Not sure today's EVs are the answer though.

So much wrong in both your posts makes my head spin.

You managed to get out EVs cause more pollution and EVs aren't the future in 2 posts good man.

Top work

CalamariFritti

listermint wrote: »

So much wrong in both your posts makes my head spin.

You managed to get out EVs cause more pollution and EVs aren't the future in 2 posts good man.

Top work

Sorry but you need to read my posts again.

listermint

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Sorry but you need to read my posts again.

I read them in full. I've seen similar stuff on Facebook.

Bandwagon I think you called EVs in your last post

Lol

KCross

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The thing with EVs is everybody acts like they have no emissions. Mostly though they simply have emissions elsewhere. Unless we have solar/wind/nuclear in play which in many countries we do not.

I don't think anyone here says that. There are threads here where the finite detail of our grid emissions are discussed.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

And even then. Those solar panels / wind mills have a fairly hefty carbon bill during production, car batteries need to be produced. Chemicals elements involved are rare and not without risks either.

The big difference is the battery and Solar PV panels etc gets used over and over for a few decades. The fill of diesel you take today is gone forever within a few days!

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I'd like to see solid actual figures on energy bills ICE vs EV that takes all that into account. Otherwise we'd be just walking into another fad possibly.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "energy bill comparisons".
Are you talking about end user figures (€/km) or end-end production figures (grid emissions, oil well research, drilling, transportation etc)?

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I agree. Centrally produced electricity is probably electricity porduced in a much more efficient way. However replacing ICE cars, production lines, everything will cost energy and emissions in a big way, too.

I don't really get your point. The objective is to stop burning petrol/diesel and that requires change.

The alternative is just to do nothing. Also bear in mind that you don't have to shutdown existing plants to switch to EV. The production lines can remain as an EV is still a car with body panels and suspension etc its just that the engine is replaced by a battery. Not a lot different to any auto maker retooling for a new model car.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Batteries are a major issue. Current technology is nowhere near being sustainable or workable for an all encompassing switch.

Why not? Can you elaborate?

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The obvious gain will have to be very big in order to blindly jump on a possibly short sighted band wagon full on.

In principle I totally agree. This is a major issue if not the major issue wrt climate control. Progress and delving into alternatives is at least progress which is good. Not sure today's EVs are the answer though.

Take a bigger picture look rather than a look at batteries or the grid in isolation. The switch to EV is about shifting away from a depleting resource to electricity based transport. How the electricity is generated and stored can evolve for decades.
e.g. You might look at the grid and say the emissions aren't good enough but if everyone was driving an EV everyone would simultaneously benefit from incremental improvements in the grid (adding more Solar, wind etc). So we shouldn't wait for every element of the ecosystem before mass adoption. Shift asap and as the grid improves everyone gets the benefit without needing to change their car. If you want to improve your emissions on your ICE you have to buy a new one!

Sticking with ICE won't get much better than it is. The emissions controls added in the last decade have been poor (diesel gate is the tip of the iceberg) and it has made cars less reliable.

man_no_plan

kceire wrote: »

Guys, I don't know why you reply to a guy that spends all his time in After Hours.

Windup merchant and trolling would be the best use of the posts so far.

He has been caught out so many times*, but comes back with a different argument, classic signs of a troll or wind up merchant.

*1400km for €60 ROFL

Ryanair.com is the only pace you'll get that.

oppenheimer1

listermint wrote: »

I read them in full. I've seen similar stuff on Facebook.

Bandwagon I think you called EVs in your last post

Lol

Most EV's couldn't pull a bandwagon tbf :P

A couple of things to clarify. I pay just under E1/l for diesel at present for the business. I should have clarified that point but it was a bit unfair to latch onto a remark which was no more than an aside. I have given my own fuel economy figures but I can't see how that is relevant to this thread.

The personal attacks here have been ott to be honest, you play the ball lads, not the man. Argue the points, and thankfully a few of the better posters here have. Others here have behaved like fervent believers in a religion and just can't handle a different point of view. Totally daft, it's just a technology not a personal insult.

I don't travel 500km/day but I make a 400km round trip between two and three times a month (why need 500km? Comfort). On the road charging would get old quickly even if it's a 5min stop - because it's a stop. I sometimes think that my parents would be suitable for an EV. 90% of their driving, like most, is within range but I know that 10% would frustrate them greatly no matter what the savings - I don't think they are unique.

Some have made the jump to EV, and I hope they enjoy the savings. By the time the majority move over it's likely they won't exist by then. Their savings can be seen as price paid for testing the products and network for the rest of us. As the price of used older EV fall into bangernomics I would expect to see a big jump in them being used as a second car for which the early EV's are ideal.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

By the time the majority move over it's likely they won't exist by then. Their savings can be seen as price paid for testing the products and network for the rest of us.

I'll take that price, thank you

(I promise I will do a lot of testing products and networks, honest!)

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

I'll take that price, thank you

(I promise I will do a lot of testing products and networks, honest!)

Unkel tests the Lucan FCP all the time!

Anyway, can we get back to being a civilised forum again?

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Most EV's couldn't pull a bandwagon tbf :P

A couple of things to clarify. I pay just under E1/l for diesel at present for the business. I should have clarified that point but it was a bit unfair to latch onto a remark which was no more than an aside. I have given my own fuel economy figures but I can't see how that is relevant to this thread.

The personal attacks here have been ott to be honest, you play the ball lads, not the man. Argue the points, and thankfully a few of the better posters here have. Others here have behaved like fervent believers in a religion and just can't handle a different point of view. Totally daft, it's just a technology not a personal insult.

I don't travel 500km/day but I make a 400km round trip between two and three times a month (why need 500km? Comfort). On the road charging would get old quickly even if it's a 5min stop - because it's a stop. I sometimes think that my parents would be suitable for an EV. 90% of their driving, like most, is within range but I know that 10% would frustrate them greatly no matter what the savings - I don't think they are unique.

Some have made the jump to EV, and I hope they enjoy the savings. By the time the majority move over it's likely they won't exist by then. Their savings can be seen as price paid for testing the products and network for the rest of us. As the price of used older EV fall into bangernomics I would expect to see a big jump in them being used as a second car for which the early EV's are ideal.

If only all your posts had been as reasoned as this one....;)

BTW, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by opting against EVs until 500kms. A current Ioniq would cover your current mileage, and your savings would be substantial.
You'd only be paying 7c per kWh through the business I'd imagine on night rate. Or 15c during the day.

man_no_plan

Soarer wrote: »

If only all your posts had been as reasoned as this one....;)

BTW, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by opting against EVs until 500kms. A current Ioniq would cover your current mileage, and your savings would be substantial.
You'd only be paying 7c per kWh through the business I'd imagine on night rate. Or 15c during the day.

Get the vat back on it too!!

listermint

Soarer wrote: »

If only all your posts had been as reasoned as this one....;)

BTW, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by opting against EVs until 500kms. A current Ioniq would cover your current mileage, and your savings would be substantial.
You'd only be paying 7c per kWh through the business I'd imagine on night rate. Or 15c during the day.

I think that is the point that folks have been trying to get across.

But the fact that the poster continually spread bar stool commentary was making things touchy. And im sorry but continuing to argue that people are acting like some sort of religion when discussing a topic is not on, he was making inadequate points continually in the face of facts provided.

You have to expect negative attention based on that, it was not disimlar to how trump supporters go on against actual evidence provided to them, and then when called out they shout about playing the ball not the man.
.
Point is this fella would save an absolute fortune enough to go on some savage foreign holidays to far off destinations. It makes perfect sense.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Most EV's couldn't pull a bandwagon tbf :P

A couple of things to clarify. I pay just under E1/l for diesel at present for the business. I should have clarified that point but it was a bit unfair to latch onto a remark which was no more than an aside. I have given my own fuel economy figures but I can't see how that is relevant to this thread.

The personal attacks here have been ott to be honest, you play the ball lads, not the man. Argue the points, and thankfully a few of the better posters here have. Others here have behaved like fervent believers in a religion and just can't handle a different point of view. Totally daft, it's just a technology not a personal insult.

I don't travel 500km/day but I make a 400km round trip between two and three times a month (why need 500km? Comfort). On the road charging would get old quickly even if it's a 5min stop - because it's a stop. I sometimes think that my parents would be suitable for an EV. 90% of their driving, like most, is within range but I know that 10% would frustrate them greatly no matter what the savings - I don't think they are unique.

Some have made the jump to EV, and I hope they enjoy the savings. By the time the majority move over it's likely they won't exist by then. Their savings can be seen as price paid for testing the products and network for the rest of us. As the price of used older EV fall into bangernomics I would expect to see a big jump in them being used as a second car for which the early EV's are ideal.

fine mate , we get it, an EV isnt for you. for many many others and an increasing number every year , they are relevant , lets move on

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

fine mate , we get it, an EV isnt for you. for many many others and an increasing number every year , they are relevant , lets move on

+1
I think he's made his "point" and now we can all move on as a forum, and he can go somewhere where they talk about diesels and use whale oil powered lights.

Conversations like this are useful as readers and participants and naysayers all will learn more about EVs.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

Conversations like this are useful as readers and participants and naysayers all will learn more about EVs.

Such as that the NEDC range is to be believed, that batteries will be "crapped out" etc?

Bigus

samih wrote: »

Conversations like this are useful as readers and participants and naysayers all will learn more about EVs.

I find it bemusing how people doing 50,000 km per year think it's their god given right to do so , burning that much diesel/resources and the consequent pollution with no thought for the environment.

They wouldn't be long changing their habits if they had to cycle everywhere on their own steam.

One thing that an ev does is make you very aware of precious energy useage.

Anyway the Saudi football team ( by their disrespect for a minutes silence) have given people another great new reason to buy EVs , i.e. "disgust" with oil producing Wahhabi ignoramuses , people choosing not to buy anymore of their oil and supporting the problems they cause.

goz83

ELM327 wrote: »

Such as that the NEDC range is to be believed, that batteries will be "crapped out" etc?

NEDC is being replaced, because it's so unreliable.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/new-fuel-rules-will-drive-up-car-prices-and-motor-tax-costs-1.3105821

goz83

Bigus wrote: »

Anyway the Saudi football team ( by their disrespect for a minutes silence) have given people another great new reason to buy EVs , i.e. "disgust" with oil producing Wahhabi ignoramuses , people choosing not to buy anymore of their oil and supporting the problems they cause.

Just seen this now. What a disgrace! I thought it might have been a couple of players ignoring the minutes silence, or perhaps being unaware...but to learn it was the saudi (they don't deserve a capital letter) officials who said "no" is beyond belief. They must have been in support of the terrorist attacks so.

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

NEDC is being replaced, because it's so unreliable.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/new-fuel-rules-will-drive-up-car-prices-and-motor-tax-costs-1.3105821

Seen that, good, and not before time. I was referring to the ridiculous comments on thread however.

goz83 wrote: »

Just seen this now. What a disgrace! I thought it might have been a couple of players ignoring the minutes silence, or perhaps being unaware...but to learn it was the saudi (they don't deserve a capital letter) officials who said "no" is beyond belief. They must have been in support of the terrorist attacks so.

Scum. Complete and utter scum. How could they not adhere to a moment of silence for innocent people murdered in cold blood by idiots.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

Scum. Complete and utter scum. How could they not adhere to a moment of silence for innocent people murdered in cold blood by idiots.

Because they believe in throwing gay people from the highest building?
Becuase they believe in stoning women to death for having sex outside of wedlock?

That's the mentality you're dealing with.

Anyways, BMW sales are down eh?!

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

Maybe you are right for a 24kWh Leaf. But in a 28kWh+ car (Leaf, Ioniq, Zoe) do you still think that?

The Ioniq is certainly a significant improvement, but it's still very new. If you're looking used (like I was), then the 24 kWh Leaf is the only reasonable choice for a lot of people (especially with all the battery lease nonsense Renault were doing).

Dizzz

kceire wrote: »

That's not an issue for full EV's though.
By the same scare, how much is a new engine in your F10 if/when the timing chain goes.

The issue range wise is that if you read up on their battery warranties (8 years / 120,000km for VWGI from memory) they are guaranteeing that the range will remain within 50% of the quoted/original. Which if I bought a car with a 300km range could render useless for my 200km commute within a few years.

Luckily F10 issue was sorted early 2013 so I'm ok for that one. I guess it's different for me because I was previously a mechanic and something like that is sortable with a few parts & a good bit or labour (possibly some machining). Batteries on the other hand you're at the mercy of the car manufacturer as to what they set the price at which from what I was told previously is about double the price of the worst case scenario for F10 engine. :eek:

Dizzz

samih wrote: »

The Nissan Leaf battery pack is the only known entity and it costs approx. 6000 to replace including the labour. In your case the next wave of EVs will save you bucketful of money.

If you commute 5 days a week you do whopping 1020 km a week. Over a year of say 46 weeks that's 46900 km commute only. At 5.8 l/100km that's approx. 2720 l of diesel which at 1.20 per liter equals to over €3200 per year excluding the cost of other driving.

The electric car at high motorway speed would cost roughly (at 20 kWh/100 km and 7 c/kWh) €660 on electricity. With the balance you could replace the battery pack after 2 years/100000 km (which would not be needed though even in the case of Leaf as seen by C&C taxis, Cornwall).

Or maybe I should just quit my job when I see those figures :P

It's definitely and interesting one and even more so when you see it in personal numbers so thanks for that

Soarer

Dizzz wrote: »

The issue range wise is that if you read up on their battery warranties (8 years / 120,000km for VWGI from memory) they are guaranteeing that the range will remain within 50% of the quoted/original. Which if I bought a car with a 300km range could render useless for my 200km commute within a few years.

That's on paper, but reality is much different.

Firstly, I don't think any manufacturer will allow 50% degradation of their battery. It's normally around 70%. (See image below)

I don't know about Hyundai*, as their EVs aren't around long enough to judge, but the latest version of the Leaf is capable of many hundreds of thousands of kms without any noticeable drop in range. Mad Lad has around 50k kms on his and the battery is still reading 99% or something like that.

* - I think Unkel said Hyundai USA are giving a lifetime warranty with their EVs.

zilog_jones

One other thing to consider is that in time, more independent mechanics will be able to maintain or repair batteries outside of their warranty. This is already happening with the Prius (many DIY options, though not a lot of specialists in Ireland yet), and starting with the Leaf. Repairs can often be done at much lower cost as it is often a case of just swapping out one or two bad cells/packs with used/reconditioned items - usually the only main dealer option is to swap out the entire battery unit (hence the immense cost).

Bigus

zilog_jones wrote: »

One other thing to consider is that in time, more independent mechanics will be able to maintain or repair batteries outside of their warranty. This is already happening with the Prius (many DIY options, though not a lot of specialists in Ireland yet), and starting with the Leaf. Repairs can often be done at much lower cost as it is often a case of just swapping out one or two bad cells/packs with used/reconditioned items - usually the only main dealer option is to swap out the entire battery unit (hence the immense cost).

One of the reasons for lack of Prius battery specialists is because there's no demand due to lack of battery trouble.

Secondhand Prius prices hardened up a lot because peolple copped on that the media hyped "they'll need new batteries at a cost of 3000" euro never materialised in real world conditions.

Same with the Leaf , after gen 1.5 I think battery issues will be a non issue , except with commercial mega mile users ( and they'll buy secondhand low miles packs from write offs)

Battery life,shouldn't put off purchasers of an EV , its much less of an issue than DPF/DMF/timing chains etc etc, and mainly used by traditional manufacturers to scaremonger.