B&I LIONS vs Blues: Wed @ 08h35

dregin

Hey now, Williams is a smashing player on his day. Could someone just PLEASE tell him to stay on the ****ing ground?!

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Rob Howley the biggest villain there.

Too much emphasis on a forwards coaching ticket. Should've got someone external with a good track record of attacking play.

He was hardly first choice though. Nobody else seemed to want the gig or be available for it.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

He was hardly first choice though. Nobody else seemed to want the gig or be available for it.

Maybe - we don't know that for sure though.

Yeah it's a shame, when you see the coaching ticket they're all ex-forwards afaik, it's no wonder they're trying to play it up the jumper.

Buer

It's worth saying that this might be the worst Kiwi Super Rugby side but that does not equate to them being a bad side. They've still won 7 and drawn 1 (against the Chiefs) of their 14 games this season. Even away to the on fire Crusaders, they only lost by 9 points.

They're a good side. Unfortunately for the Lions, that's scant consolation as the games are still going to get harder from here on in.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

*clutches bet slip*

Lets hope not.

Careful Buer. The FAKE MSM will screw you like they did with Nigel Carolan and Connacht. Disgraceful!

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

*clutches bet slip*

Lets hope not.

im worried about the highlanders game.

It all depends on whos released from the all black squad for it.. if no one is and we're without Dixon, Squire up front and the 2 smiths, sopoaga, fekitoa and naholo then were very much weakened.

should the lions lose against the crusaders, they will have to put out a strong team against the highlanders or risk a very real tour white wash (not counting the NZPB)

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Maybe - we don't know that for sure though.

Yeah it's a shame, when you see the coaching ticket they're all ex-forwards afaik, it's no wonder they're trying to play it up the jumper.

By all accounts Gregor Townsend turned them down. Howley and Farrell weren't forwards.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

It's worth saying that this might be the worst Kiwi Super Rugby side but that does not equate to them being a bad side. They've still won 7 and drawn 1 (against the Chiefs) of their 14 games this season. Even away to the on fire Crusaders, they only lost by 9 points.

They're a good side. Unfortunately for the Lions, that's scant consolation as the games are still going to get harder from here on in.

I'm sure Woodward is loving this so far.

covfefe

I thought they could only improve on last week, I was wrong

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Rob Howley the biggest villain there.

Too much emphasis on a forwards coaching ticket. Should've got someone external with a good track record of attacking play.

Who though? We had this discussion before and there was a complete absence of options.

Townsend and Schmidt both turned it down, I believe.

thomond2006

Hayes for backs coach.

super_furry

Still haven't seen the replay of it, but what was going on with the final line-out? It looked to me as if they got their calls wrong rather than Best overthrowing it.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Maybe - we don't know that for sure though.

Yes we do. For the millionth time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38172413

Buer

super_furry wrote: »

Still haven't seen the replay of it, but what was going on with the final line-out? It looked to me as if they got their calls wrong rather than Best overthrowing it.

Completely. There was a complete mess up. I didn't know what was happening as the jumpers didn't even appear close to being ready for the throw. If Itoje called it, then it's a complete systems failure. If he didn't, Best obviously heard something and misunderstood it.

There was something amiss there though. The last throw from Owens before going off was very similar with a real lack of cohesion.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Completely. There was a complete mess up. I didn't know what was happening as the jumpers didn't even appear close to being ready for the throw. If Itoje called it, then it's a complete systems failure. If he didn't, Best obviously heard something and misunderstood it.

There was something amiss there though. The last throw from Owens before going off was very similar with a real lack of cohesion.

Coreolis Effect

Yeah_Right

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

sure is. The Blues are terrible compared to every other NZ team

Oi. Watch you say about the Blues. They have achieved something no other NZ Super Rugby team has ever done.

I can't really give a critical analysis of the match. I was too busy screaming at the TV and jumping around. The one thing I did notice is that the back play is muck. I obviously watch a lot of NH* rugby and I know there are quality players in the Lions so how have they only managed two tries against two defensively poor sides.


* I was going to say second division rugby but I thought that might be rubbing IBF's nose in it a bit too much.

shuffol

Buer wrote: »

Completely. There was a complete mess up. I didn't know what was happening as the jumpers didn't even appear close to being ready for the throw. If Itoje called it, then it's a complete systems failure. If he didn't, Best obviously heard something and misunderstood it.

There was something amiss there though. The last throw from Owens before going off was very similar with a real lack of cohesion.

Only saw the one viewing but it looked to me like Best rushed the throw.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Coreolis Effect

is this a "thing" now?

keano_afc

Hard to see anything other than a 3 test mauling.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Oi. Watch you say about the Blues. They have achieved something no other NZ Super Rugby team has ever done.

I can't really give a critical analysis of the match. I was too busy screaming at the TV and jumping around. The one thing I did notice is that the back play is muck. I obviously watch a lot of NH* rugby and I know there are quality players in the Lions so how have they only managed two tries against two defensively poor sides.


* I was going to say second division rugby but I thought that might be rubbing IBF's nose in it a bit too much.

well done YR, your boys did very well today.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

is this a "thing" now?

It's hard enough to win in New Zealand without them screwing around with gravity.

razorblunt

.ak wrote: »

Maybe - we don't know that for sure though.

Yeah it's a shame, when you see the coaching ticket they're all ex-forwards afaik, it's no wonder they're trying to play it up the jumper.

Well Townsend has confirmed that he turned it down.

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

they hold their own physically but not skillswise.

theres not many NH hookers who can make line breaks from rucks like parsons did today. Itoje is probably the only lion forward that i would say has the basic skill level to challange for a AB place.

Im sure they take Furlong as well just cos hes a leg-bag.

Luatuas inside off load to SBW made that last try... and then it was West's familiarity with sonny that allowed him to his his shoulder at just the right time to take the second off load.

The lions forwards will also be better matched on saturday

things arent going to get any easier for the lions

This argument annoys me, putting it down to familiarity. The Barbarians were a scratch team last week and showed more intelligence and linked up far better than the Lions.

IMO it is a basic skills problem. NZ players don't need 4 or 5 games with each other to figure out how to do anything more than the most basic of passing moves. I really think in the NH players are coached far too much around pre-determined phase moves and not enough off the cuff stuff, and that just doesn't work with the Lions.

Yea the familiary may have helped a bit but a lot of it was down to great skill. SBW knowing how to hit the line and offload, West knowing that line to run. Just seeing what was in front of them and having the skill to exploit it. No worrying about passing the ball in your own half, no percentage plays of kicking it down field for safety.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

By all accounts Gregor Townsend turned them down. Howley and Farrell weren't forwards.

I was referring to everyone but Howley - sorry should've been clearer.

Also Farrell played league so that makes him a forward by proxy.

GrainneArd

If this keeps up the confidence levels going into the test matches will be zero. Indeed confidence levels going into the third game of the series will be low. And the trouncing they will get in the media in the coming days won't help. To have a bunch of amateurs rip through your defence last Saturday and to be able to score only one try against the most porous defence in Super Rugby is damning. There wasn't an inkling of any ideas from the back three this morning, nor at the weekend. And this is unlikely to change. I think the Lions will be laughed out of NZ as a team that hasn't an interesting idea in its armoury. Beef but no brains would sum it up to date.

irishman86

awec wrote: »

Fair point. Not only is it aids to watch as a spectator but it isn't working at all.

That final try from the Blues today, there is no hope of seeing this Lions team score anything like that. Too much of this percentage play muck. Too many players who just run straight for the nearest defender, too many guys happy to constantly kick it away.

Nowell was the worst player on the field but I have to say Henshaw was completely outshone and outdone by his opposite number.

Well tbf Henshaw is a very good player, but SBW could easily be the best center in the world. Only thing that stops that being certain is he changes codes and has other sporting activities

ThisRegard

super_furry wrote: »

Still haven't seen the replay of it, but what was going on with the final line-out? It looked to me as if they got their calls wrong rather than Best overthrowing it.

https://twitter.com/golfcentraldoc/status/872396346292137984

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

I was referring to everyone but Howley - sorry should've been clearer.

Also Farrell played league so that makes him a forward by proxy.

Chris Ashton, Andy Farrell, Kyle Eastmond, Ben Te'o, Chris Ashton and world renowned try scoring superstar winger Chris Ashton. All converts, all played in the backs. Not every league player is Brad Thorn!

Buer

That clip looks to me like it was Itoje's fault. He tried to be clever, calling it as he walked into the line. Best saw that and threw it but neither Marler nor Sinckler were even in position to lift. They tried to get him up into the air in time but came nowhere near getting him up to it.

Jason Robinson if you co back a bit further, one of the best backs in the NH and a league convert.

awec

I am not sure what the tweet is about, if anything it shows the throw was fine.

irishbucsfan

Dana Narrow Sinus wrote: »

Jason Robinson if you co back a bit further, one of the best backs in the NH and a league convert.

If we're talking of players of that calibre, can't forget Brian Carney

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I am not sure what the tweet is about, if anything it shows the throw was fine.

Yes, it was. The lifters weren't switched on and mullered it. Borthwick will have to break out the coloured blocks and giant letter-cards again and go over the calls with the props a bit slower next time.

awec

awec wrote: »

I am not sure what the tweet is about, if anything it shows the throw was fine.

The timing was completely arseways, probably from all concerned.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

That clip looks to me like it was Itoje's fault. He tried to be clever, calling it as he walked into the line. Best saw that and threw it but neither Marler nor Sinckler were even in position to lift. They tried to get him up into the air in time but came nowhere near getting him up to it.

That's what it looks like to me too. The throw seemed fine and even Itoje seemed to be in place. The lifters just didn't seem to know it was meant to happen that quick.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

That clip looks to me like it was Itoje's fault. He tried to be clever, calling it as he walked into the line. Best saw that and threw it but neither Marler nor Sinckler were even in position to lift. They tried to get him up into the air in time but came nowhere near getting him up to it.

depends on whatever the timing scheme was, but usually when someone walks late into the line out with the lifters set, the throw should be immediate, as it was.

I think sinckler might have been the issue as he doesnt turn to face itoje in time.... and itoje never gets his hands ups up as hes unbalanced.. so its hard to know if it was over his arc.

hinault

Dana Narrow Sinus wrote: »

Jason Robinson if you co back a bit further, one of the best backs in the NH and a league convert.

Martin Offiah. Started in Union, went to League, came back to Union.
Jonathan Davies too.

League, just like Union, can teach a player how to be a better player in the opposite code.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

depends on whatever the timing scheme was, but usually when someone walks late into the line out with the lifters set, the throw should be immediate, as it was.

I think sinckler might have been the issue as he doesnt turn to face itoje in time.... and itoje never gets his hands ups up as hes unbalanced.. so its hard to know if it was over his arc.

I think the timing was off on both. Normally you can survive one or the other being late though if you get the lift while your momentum is right, so I reckon both were late.

Difficult though for props to cover such a massive distance like that, they really had to cover a lot of ground to get to Itoje from where they were standing, poor fellows.

I dunno why they needed a convoluted move like that anyway. Just secure the ball and maul it and go from there.

razorblunt

Dana Narrow Sinus wrote: »

As has been pointed out a few times, he wanted Gregor Townsend but Townsend declined. Got stuck with Howley then, there wasn't a whole lot of other choices.

If this were a project decision the "do nothing" option would have been tabled.
In a "Howley vs Nothing" Option, Nothing would have won out wide.

razorblunt

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, it was. The lifters weren't switched on and mullered it. Borthwick will have to break out the coloured blocks and giant letter-cards again and go over the calls with the props a bit slower next time.

You can be damn sure Sky Sport won't pin this on the English boys.
They were loving Sinkler jumping like a child at a penalty with 8 minutes gone, having already had a talking to calm down from Marler earlier.

I'm all for enthusiasm, but if you're heads not fully in the game there's a potential cause for issues like the lineout.

irishbucsfan

Dana Narrow Sinus wrote: »

I dunno why they needed a convoluted move like that anyway. Just secure the ball and maul it and go from there.

It's not convoluted. It's extremely simple as these things go. Very little movement involved. Just incompetence.

ThisRegard

awec wrote: »

I am not sure what the tweet is about, if anything it shows the throw was fine.

Yeah, the comment with it went right over my head, I only posted it as it showed the throw itself.

molloyjh

Just saw the winning try. Itoje got badly caught out there. Pushed up between 2 attackers and opened the dog leg to let Blues in behind. There were 2 men in front of himself and POM, yet both Lions men had pushed out that little bit too far. Had the ball gone to the second man POM wasn't in a position to make an effective tackle and Itoje then obviously was watching both attackers and got caught between the two. After that there must have been a call for the offload so one of Stander or POM should have been looking to block that option, but once they got in behind and executed the offload it was game over.

It was an outstanding offload and support line though.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not convoluted. It's extremely simple as these things go. Very little movement involved. Just incompetence.

At such a crucial time though it makes the timing more complicated than it needs to be. The lineout went fine all game but for one dodgy throw by Owens. The Blues clearly had no intent to compete there so why not just make it as simple as possible.

BBDBB

awec wrote: »

This argument annoys me, putting it down to familiarity. The Barbarians were a scratch team last week and showed more intelligence and linked up far better than the Lions.

IMO it is a basic skills problem. NZ players don't need 4 or 5 games with each other to figure out how to do anything more than the most basic of passing moves. I really think in the NH players are coached far too much around pre-determined phase moves and not enough off the cuff stuff, and that just doesn't work with the Lions.

Yea the familiary may have helped a bit but a lot of it was down to great skill. SBW knowing how to hit the line and offload, West knowing that line to run. Just seeing what was in front of them and having the skill to exploit it. No worrying about passing the ball in your own half, no percentage plays of kicking it down field for safety.

Sadly I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. the NH is still a long way behind NZ in a fair few areas. In case anyone is in any doubt I am not whinging, neither am I pointing the finger except to illustrate where the Lions basic skills set needs to improve including the last two which are real cute plays

1) Flat passing/marginally forward at pace
2) Drawing the man before passing
3) Offloading in the tackle
4) Man on the shoulder when someone makes a break
5) Slowing the ball down and then releasing on the refs warning, mission accomplished no foul conceded
6) convenient lazy running after the breakdown

BBDBB

BBDBB wrote: »

Sadly I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. the NH is still a long way behind NZ in a fair few areas. In case anyone is in any doubt I am not whinging, neither am I pointing the finger except to illustrate where the Lions basic skills set needs to improve including the last two which are real cute plays

1) Flat passing/marginally forward at pace
2) Drawing the man before passing
3) Offloading in the tackle
4) Man on the shoulder when someone makes a break
5) Slowing the ball down and then releasing on the refs warning, mission accomplished no foul conceded
6) convenient lazy running after the breakdown

The last two are mainstays of NH rugby!

BBDBB

Basil3 wrote: »

The last two are mainstays of NH rugby!

and NZ sides are still better at them

Catmologen

Buer wrote: »

That clip looks to me like it was Itoje's fault. He tried to be clever, calling it as he walked into the line. Best saw that and threw it but neither Marler nor Sinckler were even in position to lift. They tried to get him up into the air in time but came nowhere near getting him up to it.

An experienced player like Best should know when not to throw.

irishbucsfan

Catmologen wrote: »

An experienced player like Best should know when not to throw.

It doesn't quite work like that. The hooker will throw the ball before the jump when its going to the middle or back. Himself and Itoje were ready.

John Hayes is what they need down there.