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Media: Red tape forces Property Agent to drop small scale landlords
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Yep. This is why driving small scale LLs out of the sector will reduce supply overall. The REITs are also not interested in owning houses or small apartment blocks in provincial towns and villages. Rural Ireland can absolutely forget about having a supply of rental stock if small scale LLs are driven out, so people who can't buy in rural Ireland will move to the cities to rent, further pressurising prices.The_Conductor wrote: »I imagine its the maintenance aspect- its easier to keep an electrician or a plumber on call- for a large development of 200 units- than it is for 200 units scattered hither and thither around a county. Its also easier to get sign-off on repairs etc. It would also be a lot more convenient for tenancy management purposes etc.
Driving small scale LLs out is a reckless move.0 -
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I shall tell you what I have done: there was no gravy train for me, I used to keep most of my tenancies below market rate, in good shape and paid my taxes and expected the tenants to reciprocate by not breaching leases and take care of the properties. Obviously there was no reciprocation from (most) tenants who could not care less (and this type of tenant has received termination notices either for breach of lease or part 4 termination).
But that's not what I mean in terms of what have you done. But maybe you touched on it yourself, outlining the representative body you mentioned are a bit toothless, and is a bit of a talking shop.
Like I said I'm just playing devils advocate. Not having a swipe. You're outlining what you feel is the standard by which good landlords should be judged, and I'm not disagreeing, you on the surface taking you at face value look to be one of the good ones.
But you also seem to be someone who runs/owns/operates a number of properties. We don't need to go into specifics, you can say you only ever broke even, or maybe you ground a bit of profit. Whatever. Point is you are a business effectively. You're providing a service to customers, ie your tenants.
I'm one of those past tenants who can see things from both sides, like I can in most situations. And while there is a narrative developing of "government screwed us" there needs to be acceptance that this happened because there was no evidence of landlords displaying self regulation or control. There was a fractured representative instead of an empowered one with strength in numbers that could lobby and negotiate and discuss.
Again I only say this as someone who has done this sort of work before, and it's something that people can spot a mile away. And I guess its one of the issues with such a high number of single property or low volume property landlords. Everyone looks out for themselves and abides by their own standards. Some of which are high, some of which are not.
While it's so abundantly obvious this needed to happen sooner, as now the heavy legislation has come barrelling down, it's not too late. Landlords need to get their **** together. Need to either all rally around an existing body, or create a new one. A body that will represent your interests in Leinster House, and become a collaborate party in legislation and policy.
As pointed out by Conductor and others, we have a high number of single property landlords, and them all selling up will cause problems. Do the government know this will happen? Does the Minister for Housing know why this legislation is tough for landlords?
Importantly, the minster just makes headline, keynote policy. The real cogs of legislation and negotiations happens with his civil servants, senior ones, in his/her department.
There should be a representative body for landlords that has vast numbers behind it in support, that the body does accurately reflect that of landlords and that it is not a talking shop, but staffed by experienced people who can bring agendas or issues to the Department and it's contacts, and for their to be dialogue.
If the fractured approach continues, its just easier for the Department and Government to make high level policy without "real" consultation, and basically entertain the fractured groups, letters and correspondence, but ultimately ignore it as it's exactly that, a fractured approach.
Can't go into the specifics, but remember a meeting with a Department with senior civil servants and advisors, where one of the exec of the group I was with, seeing we were getting stonewalled a bit (a Junior minister in said department trying to make a name for himself with damaging legislation) just dropped a "Well look at the end of the day you are a legislators, and we are just here representing about eleven thousand voters. You go ahead with what you think is best and I'm sure come elections our members will do the same" Our meetings took a drastically different turn going forward, including the Junior minister in question attending. Just an example.0 -
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The shortage of rentals is not the fault of the "vulture funds".
Supply and demand.
Why would a shortage of rentals for wealthy people not be a problem?
The fault no. Does it exacerbate the problem. More than likely. They move the price point upwards.
Wealthy people are not restricted by cost.
Our main shortage is in affordable housing. Our economic policies are primarily aimed at increasing investment in Ireland. However that has a impact on affordable housing.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
There should be a representative body for landlords that has vast numbers behind it in support, that the body does accurately reflect that of landlords and that it is not a talking shop, but staffed by experienced people who can bring agendas or issues to the Department and it's contacts, and for their to be dialogue.
The IPOA tried to take up this mantle- but got referred to the Competition Authority as it was deemed anti-competitive for landlords to try to work together........
The government really wants its cake and to eat it- but at the same time- they want to have at least some landlords around- so they have a bogeyman they can blame the ills of the sector on.
Its divide and conquer at its finest.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 30620
Our main shortage is in affordable housing. Our economic policies are primarily aimed at increasing investment in Ireland. However that has a impact on affordable housing.
We don't have a single sector in which you can hold up a placard and say- the biggest issue is (social housing or whatever). We have shortages across absolutely all sectors- arguably, the greatest constraint, and the sector identified by the CSO as containing most household units living in inappropriate accommodation- are owner occupiers who bought between 2002 and 2007- and whose circumstances have changed, however, they're not in a position to sell and move elsewhere. So we get unusual stories occasionally hitting the headlines- a family of 7 living in a 2 bed apartment, turned down for assistance, because they're owner occupiers- or the case in Galway- of a family of 6 living in a car- because they let their sole property to tenant as it no longer suited their needs- but got kicked out of the property they were renting- when their own tenant stopped paying rent and they were unable to evict them....... The local authority eventually were guilted into providing accommodation for them in Renmore last week- however, they doesn't do anything for their overholding tenant (who apparently has been advised by Threshold to stay as long as they like).
The whole system is a mess- you can't just say the main problem is a lack of affordable housing- the main problem is a lack of housing, period.0 -
I don't agree.
I think the main problem IS those who are homeless.
That some one is stuck in unsuitable but safe housing is a lesser issue.
The problem has to be sorted from the bottom up. Well if we are a compassionate society. Perhaps we want to move to the US model. Just make people homeless and turn a blind eye.
A lot of the issues for Landlords is the Govt has outsourced a lot of social and low cost housing on to private Landlords, with any of the controls to manage it.
So the LL picks up all the cost and risk and hassle and stress. All the while reducing the profitability of the business. Which is why the vulture funds come and and go for the high end.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »The IPOA tried to take up this mantle- but got referred to the Competition Authority as it was deemed anti-competitive for landlords to try to work together........
The government really wants its cake and to eat it- but at the same time- they want to have at least some landlords around- so they have a bogeyman they can blame the ills of the sector on.
Its divide and conquer at its finest.
Is this decision being contested? Because that is ridiculous and basically a clear attempt to ensure the sector remains fractured and divided.
Pretty much every sector I can think of has a lobbying group, think tank, or organisation that operates as a representative body and a collective voice when it comes to government lobbying/consultation.
Only part of one recently as part of the plain pack cigarettes initiative on behalf of retail. While there isn't a definitive representative body there either, there are a number of bodies, that come together collectively for things like this and while the discussions were fruitless as the Minister wanted to forge a legacy, the other side of the table were under no illusions about the potential fallout.0 -
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Is this decision being contested? Because that is ridiculous and basically a clear attempt to ensure the sector remains fractured and divided.
Pretty much every sector I can think of has a lobbying group, think tank, or organisation that operates as a representative body and a collective voice when it comes to government lobbying/consultation.
Only part of one recently as part of the plain pack cigarettes initiative on behalf of retail. While there isn't a definitive representative body there either, there are a number of bodies, that come together collectively for things like this and while the discussions were fruitless as the Minister wanted to forge a legacy, the other side of the table were under no illusions about the potential fallout.
Their balls have been cut off and they are cowering in the corner terrified of doing what their members pay them to do. Anyone who pays ipoa membership from now on is a fool.
It's money for nothing.0 -
The IPOA should have the courtesy of answering emails or returning phone calls from landlords enquiring about the changing legislation and benefits of membership.
I do agree that they should have put up a big fight this past time and involved the media.
I am not sure on why they are so terrified of taking on the government and its bureaucrats, if they had run a campaign for funds to challenge the RTA 2016 and take to court the overzealous "Competition and Consumer Protection Commission" authority I would have gladly contributed. I have a suspicion that some of the people in its committee might have a conflict of interest.
To go back to the topic, if it was a serious organization they could provide to their members proper help with the red tape, discounted legal advice, help fund test legal cases at the RTB appeal tribunal, Tax Appeals Commission and then at the High Court if necessary, lobby the government (instead of just sending a letter during public consultations that is totally ignored, which I could do myself) provide vetted contractors, provide vetted lettings agents, ...
What they do for landlords is just posting some bog-standard notices in their website which you can download from the RTB website: pathetic. Their website has not been properly updated for years.
We go back to square one, the IPOA nees to show some teeth to the Irish govvie and the communist TDs, before they are taken seriously. In any case even if there were a functioning landlords association, the non-REITs landlord would always be at a big disadvantage, that is why the only long term solution in my view for medium sized landlords is to pool the properties and setup REITs, where the landlords that contributed the properties to the corporate entity rotate their roles in the boards of directors of the REIT and a professional property manager is hired to run day to day operations. Contributing the properties to the corporate entity could be feasible and tax efficient as soon as CGT exemptions rules kick-in. The deep barriers I see are that the landlords would have to give up their independence (their properties could be sold when inside the corporate entity) and probably many of them would not trust handing over the day to day management to a third party or having to submit to majority voting, so I see a lot of complications here.0
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