BusConnects Cycling impact

schemingbohemia

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Better surface, easier to change lanes to/from, more visible to other traffic, less likely to encounter hazards such as pedestrians, buggies, joggers.

I'd pick a bus lane over a bike lane any day.

so it works for you so that's all that matters.

It won't work in persuading those reluctant to cycle through fear (or the media influenced fear-mongering) or those who haven't cycled in years or those new to cycling, you know the very people that we need to get cycling. You'll cycle anyway, you're not the target market for this stuff.

Chips Lovell

Sure, and telling people who don't cycle that sharing the road is too dangerous will really encourage them to take it up?

Honestly, if we keep telling people cycling on the road is dangerous, we shouldn't be surprised if it remains a minority transport mode.

Moflojo

The main problems with accepting bus lanes as cycling infrastructure, aside from arguments about 'vehicular' cycling, are:

1. If you accept that a bus lane is appropriate for cycling then, by extension, you accept that any road is appropriate for cycling, given that a bus lane can be filled with buses and taxis which, in practice, are no different to the any of the motor vehicles using non-bus lanes.

2. If the bus lanes only have certain hours of operation then the "cycle infrastructure" that the bus lane provides only exists during those hours of operation and simply does not exist outside of them. It is, as such, a disappearing cycle lane.

3. If the argument in point No. 1 (above) holds true, then there is no need for cycle lanes or cycle paths anywhere, given that any road is acceptable for cycling.

The minimum aspiration for cycling infrastructure is that it should enable and encourage safe cycling for people of all abilities, from the ages of 8 to 80. I cannot see how sharing a bus lane with motor vehicles could ever meet that criteria.

Chips Lovell

Moflojo wrote: »

1. If you accept that a bus lane is appropriate for cycling then, by extension, you accept that any road is appropriate for cycling, given that a bus lane can be filled with buses and taxis which, in practice, are no different to the any of the motor vehicles using non-bus lanes.

Correct. It's the same as saying if you accept a bus lane is appropriate for buses, then by extension any road is. But the advantage for buses and bikes is that traffic in the bus lane will often move quicker than other lanes..

Moflojo wrote: »

2. If the bus lanes only have certain hours of operation then the "cycle infrastructure" that the bus lane provides only exists during those hours of operation and simply does not exist outside of them. It is, as such, a disappearing cycle lane.

If the road is quiet, you don't need a priority lane.

Moflojo wrote: »

3. If the argument in point No. 1 (above) holds true, then there is no need for cycle lanes or cycle paths anywhere, given that any road is acceptable for cycling.

I'd largely agree with this.

the.red.baron

cdaly_ wrote: »

GoCar.ie

The go car is not worth it at the price, as they charge per km/mile the last time I chekced, as is renting a car, plus it needs to be at my house ready for me to go


Which its not

Plus if don't have insurance for 2 years I lose my no claims, which means megga bucks if I ever need to re-insure

My low cost car is the way to go

tomasrojo

the.red.baron wrote: »

The go car is not worth it at the price, as they charge per km/mile the last time I chekced, as is renting a car, plus it needs to be at my house ready for me to go


Which its not

Plus if don't have insurance for 2 years I lose my no claims, which means megga bucks if I ever need to re-insure

My low cost car is the way to go

I find GoCar handy, but I only drive a dozen or so days a year. It's way cheaper than owning for that. And it is pretty handy. I cycle over on the Brompton, five minutes, and drive back with the Brompton in the trunk. Not quite as handy as having the car outside, but I'm willing to forgo that convenience for the large sum of money it saves.

I think if I drove 50 or so days a year it would still be cheaper than owning, but it you're doing long journeys, Hertz or one of the others would be cheaper. Still probably cheaper than owning, but you do run into the problem of having to return cars to Dublin airport on a Sunday, and things like that.

Chuchote

PaulieC wrote: »

This isn't Japan though. If you think cyclists are unpopular now just wait til someone tries banning parking on roads to make way for cycle lanes. You can see from DCCs row back on the North Quays that something like this is a no no.

a) Not a popularity contest; if people who drive hate people who use a more efficient and environmental form of transport, let them hate.

b) How mean do you have to be to think your car taking up a lane in the road is worth more than a kid being able to cycle safely to school along the road?

tomasrojo

Chuchote wrote: »

b) How mean do you have to be to think your car taking up a lane in the road is worth more than a kid being able to cycle safely to school along the road?

This would comfortably accord with my everyday experience of human selfishness.

Doctor Bob

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

What is a "vehicular" cyclist?

Aah Jep. We've been here before: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90926117&postcount=52

More here: https://twitter.com/effectivecyclin

Amirani

Segregated cycle lanes are useless for overtaking. Also inevitable that you'll end up with joggers in them.

I'd much rather use a bus lane, but can see the value in segregated cycling lanes for more casual cyclists.

Chips Lovell

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Aah Jep. We've been here before: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90926117&postcount=52

More here: https://twitter.com/effectivecyclin

Jaysus. I've no recollection of that one. Someone alleged I was a vehicular cyclist last week as well and I didn't know what it was.

PaulieC

Chuchote wrote: »

a) Not a popularity contest; if people who drive hate people who use a more efficient and environmental form of transport, let them hate.

b) How mean do you have to be to think your car taking up a lane in the road is worth more than a kid being able to cycle safely to school along the road?

That's all fine in theory. People shouldn't hate people that use a more efficient and environmental form of transport. The real world however. Lots of people hate cyclists already for whatever reason. If you start telling them they can't park their car outside their house because you're building a cycle lane, do you think that perception will get better ? I don't. Do you think that those who care little for cyclist safety on the road will have a Pauline conversion ? I don't. Hell do you even think that more people would let their children cycle to school on those roads ?

Weepsie

People in urban areas will eventually realise that private cars are largely unnecessary.

They will realise they are a huge drain on their finances too.

They will look for more efficient methods, or better public transport.

Eventually people with cars will be thought of as the weird ones.

So yeah, let them hate.

Chuchote

PaulieC wrote: »

That's all fine in theory. People shouldn't hate people that use a more efficient and environmental form of transport. The real world however. Lots of people hate cyclists already for whatever reason. If you start telling them they can't park their car outside their house because you're building a cycle lane, do you think that perception will get better ? I don't. Do you think that those who care little for cyclist safety on the road will have a Pauline conversion ? I don't. Hell do you even think that more people would let their children cycle to school on those roads ?

No, people wouldn't let their children cycle to school on those roads. But they would if the line of selfishly parked cars was removed and a cycle lane protected by planters was put in so it was perfectly safe to ride their bikes to school.

loyatemu

I'm happy to use a well designed cycle lane provided I can make reasonable progress on it. The new(ish) lanes on the Blackrock bypass are great and virtually no-one is now using the road. Consideration should be given to providing routes that are not along main roads as well - through parks, along rivers & canals etc. Much more pleasant than cycling alongside trucks and buses.

Annie get your Run

Weepsie wrote: »

People in urban areas will eventually realise that private cars are largely unnecessary.

They will realise they are a huge drain on their finances too.

They will look for more efficient methods, or better public transport.

Eventually people with cars will be thought of as the weird ones.

So yeah, let them hate.

I think you need to change the lens in those rose tinted glasses of yours I hope you're right but I really don't think so. Given that most journeys in Dublin are 4KM or less - 4KM!!! Even if you don't cycle you'd walk that in under 30 mins so there already more efficient and cheaper methods for many people but they still choose their car.

mr spuckler

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I think you need to change the lens in those rose tinted glasses of yours I hope you're right but I really don't think so. Given that most journeys in Dublin are 4KM or less - 4KM!!! Even if you don't cycle you'd walk that in under 30 mins so there already more efficient and cheaper methods for many people but they still choose their car.

worse again - i actually think it's 2km

Pinch Flat

Yeah car dependency has gotten even more ingrained now that it was 10 or 15 years ago, certainly in Dublin. I know of plenty of people who will drive a few hundred meters to the train station, shop, school. etc.

A whole generation here has grown up that's been fetched and ferried and know no different. Weaning people off cars here is going to be near impossible.

mr spuckler wrote: »

worse again - i actually think it's 2km

yeah I believe there's a CSO statistic to back this up - 50% of car journeys are less than 2km.

tomasrojo

My father thinks a twenty-minute walk is an odyssey. Somebody mentioned on here that somebody from DAFT was discussing what people looked for in a neighbourhood when buying a house, and a school within walking distance was a big attraction; walking distance was defined as about 200m, if I recall correctly. Even at that, one of my neighbours drives her kids that distance to the local school.

I think car share schemes with smaller electric vehicles and free or heavily discounted parking might drag car ownership down in cities. If it saves you one or two grand a year and isn't an awful lot more inconvenient, people will go for it, I think. At the very least, it could bring the number of households with more than one car parked outside down.

Ultimately, the mispricing of car storage (generally free, often discounted when not free) will be addressed in some way, even if it isn't entirely removed. But the further you get from urban centres, the less pressing the problem is.

Pinch Flat

200m was the magic number when the LUAS stops were planned - a circle 200m radius being around each stop considered to be the distance people will walk. People think I'm mad walking my 10 year old 1km to school in the mornings, like I'm inflicting some sort of cruelty. Unbelievable really.

07Lapierre

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Better surface, easier to change lanes to/from, more visible to other traffic, less likely to encounter hazards such as pedestrians, buggies, joggers.

I'd pick a bus lane over a bike lane any day.

You forgot the most important reason for not using a bike lane/path. Once on them, a cyclist loses the right of way at every junction.

nomdeboardie

Amirani wrote: »

Segregated cycle lanes are useless for overtaking. Also inevitable that you'll end up with joggers in them.

I'd much rather use a bus lane, but can see the value in segregated cycling lanes for more casual cyclists.

Both among the many issues, indeed. I think this is the first time I've seen mention of the overtaking issue by anyone but myself; unlike motor vehicles, cyclists travel at widely varying (legal) speeds.

Chips Lovell

Pinch Flat wrote: »

People think I'm mad walking my 10 year old 1km to school in the mornings, like I'm inflicting some sort of cruelty. Unbelievable really.

This is baffling. Were these people ever children themselves? It's not that long ago that a 1km walk was perfectly normal.

mr spuckler

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

This is baffling. Were these people ever children themselves? It's not that long ago that a 1km walk was perfectly normal.

it is, as is the 200m definition of walking distance. this kind of thing p1sses me off no end.

i only ever use my car for short journeys if i've something heavy / bulky to collect or if it's p1ssing down and i really need to get something. the amount of my neighbours that will always drive to the shop for a litre of milk or loaf of bread is incredible...and our nearest shops are both less than a 5 minute walk away!

Annie get your Run

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

This is baffling. Were these people ever children themselves? It's not that long ago that a 1km walk was perfectly normal.

I wonder though if it's a case of when they were kids most houses only had one car and the breadwinner probably drove that to work. Certainly that was the case in our house. I cycled to secondary school (1.4km) came home for lunch, back in on the bike etc. etc. rain, hail, snow or ice (okay not ice, we walked then ). In primary school there was a car pool on the road and 4 or 5 families car pooled together on weekly rota, that was a 2km drive but it was usually always the dads dropping us of on their way to work.

Now that houses have two or more cars they probably just think well the car is there so it's quicker to use it - I'd say most people just don't think about it too much, their car is an extension of themselves where is in days of yore (!) they had no choice.

mr spuckler

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Now that houses have two or more cars they probably just think well the car is there so it's quicker to use it - I'd say most people just don't think about it too much, their car is an extension of themselves where is in days of yore (!) they had no choice.

i actually think you're brushing over a massive dose of laziness and lack of self regard / awareness which is reflective of our rapid progress towards being the fattest country in europe.

as a nation we're failing on obesity grounds and we can't come anywhere close to carbon emissions targets!

bless us cyclists for doing our best for our country

tomasrojo

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

This is baffling. Were these people ever children themselves? It's not that long ago that a 1km walk was perfectly normal.

Before I knew that my neighbour drove her kid to school (as I said, 200m away; less, now I think about it), I was talking to her at the local parent-toddler group and musing how lucky she was to live so near the school her kids attended and how she'd be able to just walk there, unlike a lot of people. She looked a bit evasive and said that it often rained. It's her own business, but, seriously, walking less than 200m with an umbrella ...

(She's passed me in the car on the finest day of the year.)

Chips Lovell

People are so odd.

Have recently been sussing out schools in my area. There was one I suspected might be a little too far away until I looked up Google maps and realised it was a 2km walk. "Jesus, they'd walk that no problem," was my conclusion.

Chuchote

The whole concept of "going for a walk" - universal a few years ago, when you'd come home from work, have dinner, then go for a walk with one or another member of the family, chatting gently as you go - has virtually disappeared from Irish society.

I'm more and more amazed at how burly bodies on men and women (and boys and girls) are becoming so much the norm that we don't even consider them fat.

buffalo

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

People are so odd.

Have recently been sussing out schools in my area. There was one I suspected might be a little too far away until I looked up Google maps and realised it was a 2km walk. "Jesus, they'd walk that no problem," was my conclusion.

I'd be more inclined these days to just cycle that, but out of curiosity I checked the maps for the home place.

My primary school was just under 1km away, and we walked every day. My secondary school was just over 2km away, and I'd cycle every day. I did walk occasionally (like when I wasn't bothered fixing a puncture), and I remember it seemed like aaaaages away. I'd usually give myself 45min to walk it, while cycling was 15min. I knew lads who walked it every day, but an extra 30mins in bed was pure luxury.