Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

Bonniedog

Of course Whelan is going to be annoyed over a media ban. He works in the media!

Brogan is entitled to his opinion but Gavin is obviously throwing a curve ball to galvanise the squad and throw others off a bit.

If people thought JG and Dubs were becoming predictable before Sunday, they certainly do not now!

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Of course Whelan is going to be annoyed over a media ban. He works in the media!

Brogan is entitled to his opinion but Gavin is obviously throwing a curve ball to galvanise the squad and throw others off a bit.

If people thought JG and Dubs were becoming predictable before Sunday, they certainly do not now!

I thought all this IS very predictable f**k all to get the players up for as regards the competition of the opposition

- so lets make the media the enemy and do it for Connolly.

In reality it is pantomime and people are falling for it especially the culchies which is great.

MayoAreMagic

Billy Mays wrote: »

This MayoAreMagic lad really is obsessed with Dublin

As many posts on this and the other Dublin thread as on his own county's yet not one single post on any other county's thread

Box office indeed

Most of the issues in the GAA at present centre on Dublin. They are also the reigning AI champions, in gaa terms of course they are box office.

The funny thing is I wouldn't have half as many posts on the Dublin thread, if people were actually discussing the genuine topics of the day, instead of putting so much effort into ducking them. The amount of times I have been asked to speak about Mayo on the Dublin thread is a sad reflection on those on it.

I asked a straightforward question, if Dublin were to get beaten in the next two games, who would fans blame more, Connolly or Gavin. It's a fair question. After several mayo-centric posts, the question remains unanswered. Pretty sad in fairness.

Billy Mays

Yet you didn't feel compelled to ask anyone on the Kerry thread their opinions on the Brendan O'Sullivan failed drug test which, let's be honest, has been one of the biggest GAA stories of the year.


Now if it had've been a Dublin player...

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I thought all this IS very predictable f**k all to get the players up for as regards the competition of the opposition

- so lets make the media the enemy and do it for Connolly.

In reality it is pantomime and people are falling for it especially the culchies which is great.

But surely when everything Gavin says is easily dismissed out of hand, to the extent that it has been convincingly picked apart in the majority of media outlets, it becomes very transparent and loses any real meaning.
To be honest with you, to my mind, all Gavin has done is show that he is willing to sink to telling the press complete fabrications to their faces, and the only good reputation that has been damaged, is his own, by himself. There are better ways in going about what he was trying to do, i.e. appealing to peoples common sense to give players a break.

MayoAreMagic

Billy Mays wrote: »

Yet you didn't feel compelled to ask anyone on the Kerry thread their opinions on the Brendan O'Sullivan failed drug test which, let's be honest, has been one of the biggest GAA stories of the year.


Now if it had've been a Dublin player...

There wasn't really anything to ask though. The guy took it unbeknownst to himself. The information was forthcoming at the appropriate time. What is left to ask?

This seeing yourself as a perpetual victim isn't healthy. Gavin's rant is big news, people are going to discuss it. Why not just accept that, go with it, and move on the following week when someone else is in the news? Obviously you spoke about O'Sullivan yourself, why not Gavin then?

Past30Now

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I asked a straightforward question, if Dublin were to get beaten in the next two games, who would fans blame more, Connolly or Gavin. It's a fair question. After several mayo-centric posts, the question remains unanswered. Pretty sad in fairness.

Given that neither will be on the field, the likely blame for a defeat will fall on the players present. Maybe Cluxton will have a brain fart and concede a couple of late goals. Maybe Dean Rock will have a nightmare from placed balls. Maybe 8 or 9 lads just have an off day. Maybe Kildare are just better than Dublin on the day. Maybe JG will make a mistake from thee sideline.

No matter how we lose, anybody blaming a guy sitting in the stands is kidding themselves. We are regularly lectured on about the advantages of the larger playing population, not that it did us much good between '83 and 2011.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But surely when everything Gavin says is easily dismissed out of hand, to the extent that it has been convincingly picked apart in the majority of media outlets, it becomes very transparent and loses any real meaning.
To be honest with you, to my mind, all Gavin has done is show that he is willing to sink to telling the press complete fabrications to their faces, and the only good reputation that has been damaged, is his own, by himself. There are better ways in going about what he was trying to do, i.e. appealing to peoples common sense to give players a break.

I don't know how it has damaged his reputation?

I will let you list off all he has won I can't keep track. You will know better then me as you keep track of these things better then most

It is all a bit of craic a bit of sideshow get's fellas like yourself talking about how great the dubs are etc etc

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

After several mayo-centric posts, the question remains unanswered. Pretty sad in fairness.

So the answer provided wasn't specific enough?

I'll try again.
IMHO blame would be appropriated as thus:
1% - Connolly.
2% - Gavin.
97% - Collectively.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't know how it has damaged his reputation?

Not so much on a managerial level, but just as a person. Gavin had a respectability in his silence up to now. But any guy who will point blank lie to your face about things you both know are completely not true, would go down in most people's estimations, would they not?

Plus there is a downside of being ignorant with the press, when your time comes they will be waiting. Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool being a good example.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

So the answer provided wasn't specific enough?

I'll try again.
IMHO blame would be appropriated as thus:
1% - Connolly.
2% - Gavin.
97% - Collectively.

So 10 posts later, your answer is Gavin...
Why would you blame him more than Connolly?

MayoAreMagic

Past30Now wrote: »

No matter how we lose, anybody blaming a guy sitting in the stands is kidding themselves. We are regularly lectured on about the advantages of the larger playing population, not that it did us much good between '83 and 2011.

Don't know about that. Ireland would have beaten spain in 02 had we roy keane. Then it was a poor Germany and south korea if I remember rightly. It isn't beyond reasonable doubt that we could have made a WC final if Keane had stayed. Hard to blame anyone else in that scenario...

As for not doing any good between 83-11 despite the advantages, hardly anyone elses fault in fairness... Although it does highlight the importance of money in sport - amateur sport included. Despite the population, success only came about when there was sizeable targeted investment made. There is a lesson to be learned for the GAA in there.

Jaden

Personally, I wouldn't blame any one individual for a loss. The question was who do you think would be focused more on, if this theoretical pair of losses was to materialise. I guessed based on what I see, but it's complete conjecture.

The mindset of singling out people for a collective failure of a team, is IMHO, not a winning mentality. I seem to disagree.

RuMan

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Most of the issues in the GAA at present centre on Dublin. They are also the reigning AI champions, in gaa terms of course they are box office.

The funny thing is I wouldn't have half as many posts on the Dublin thread, if people were actually discussing the genuine topics of the day, instead of putting so much effort into ducking them. The amount of times I have been asked to speak about Mayo on the Dublin thread is a sad reflection on those on it.

I asked a straightforward question, if Dublin were to get beaten in the next two games, who would fans blame more, Connolly or Gavin. It's a fair question. After several mayo-centric posts, the question remains unanswered. Pretty sad in fairness.

I've no interest in the Mayo forum.
You'd need to have won an all Ireland in the last 60 years to be considered a proper rival in my book. ie -

Galway
Meath
Offaly
Donegal
Derry
Armagh
Tyrone
Donegal
Down
Kerry
Cork

I'm sure you'll win it one day and join the big boys !

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

... Although it does highlight the importance of money in sport - amateur sport included. Despite the population, success only came about when there was sizeable targeted investment made. There is a lesson to be learned for the GAA in there.

I do agree that money is a significant contributory factor in success. But you can't buy Sam. Mayo's 2016 season proves this fairly conclusively.

If you asked a hundred people to define the ratio of importance of Funding: Population: Squad Strength, you get one hundred different answers. To win you need all three, but you don't need to have the highest level of any of the three in the country to win.

Put it this way, if Mayo has spent half a million less last year, but had Connolly and Kevin McManamon in the squad, it would be safe to say that Sam would be in Castlebar right now.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't blame any one individual for a loss. The question was who do you think would be focused more on, if this theoretical pair of losses was to materialise. I guessed based on what I see, but it's complete conjecture.

The mindset of singling out people for a collective failure of a team, is IMHO, not a winning mentality. I seem to disagree.

Nobody is placing all blame on one party, so the above meandering isn't really relevant. The question was about who would get a bigger share of blame. You say Gavin. I just asked why you think that.

The thing is you could have answered this in one post and maybe 5 sentences. The question would more than likely have passed in general conversation and would now be forgotten. Yet here we are a full day later, dragging your answer out of you like a set of deep-rooted wisdom teeth. Im not to blame for the way these conversations go, it is this attitude.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

I do agree that money is a significant contributory factor in success. But you can't buy Sam. Mayo's 2016 season proves this fairly conclusively.

On the contrary, Mayo spent less per game than the eventual winners in 2016. When you factor in the difference in travel costs, Id suggest it proves that you can buy it, often, if you have a few more things in your favour along with it. nothing against the players that won it or whatever, but it is just a reality.

Jaden wrote: »

If you asked a hundred people to define the ratio of importance of Funding: Population: Squad Strength, you get one hundred different answers. To win you need all three, but you don't need to have the highest level of any of the three in the country to win.

True enough. But that just shows that most people don't really know the answer. It doesn't mean there isn't one. There is a bit of dice rolling involved. But having certain things can tilt the odds in your favour by a few % for every roll.

Jaden wrote: »

Put it this way, if Mayo has spent half a million less last year, but had Connolly and Kevin McManamon in the squad, it would be safe to say that Sam would be in Castlebar right now.

Hard to say to be honest. Depends on what that half million went on. If it was the sizeable extra costs involved with getting the team together to train then probably not. Then you have to ask would those lads be as good if they had to do multiple 8 hour round trips every week, while being devoid of all the perks you get being a Dublin player in Dublin, and then not having the level of attacking power around them that they have now. Similarly, O'Connor is maligned at times in a mayo jersey, but I actually think he would be lethal in a Dublin team due to their style and array of options.

I don't believe that there are many things mayo spend money on that are not necessary spends, they just have more fixed costs. The reality is it costs more to run a team in Mayo than Dublin , and yet Dublin are still spending more per game. You would wonder what they actually spend it on.
Funny you have no issue engaging in hypotheticals when they are going the other way...


Probably a different tangent but an interesting discussion all the same.

CatInABox

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But any guy who will point blank lie to your face about things you both know are completely not true

What did he lie about?

ChannelNo5

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The amount of times I have been asked to speak about Mayo on the Dublin thread is a sad reflection on those on it.

Umm what now!!?? i don't recall in all the many and boring varied posts you've made being asked, ever, to speak about Mayo :P

MayoAreMagic

CatInABox wrote: »

What did he lie about?

Well Pat Spillane reading a statement for a start.
Connolly choosing to accept his ban - if he chose to accept it then he wouldn't have appealed it.
That they were attacking his good name isn't true either
The whole thing was quite disingenuous to be honest. It is reasonable to assume he will lose respect over that.

ChannelNo5 wrote: »

Umm what now!!?? i don't recall in all the many and boring varied posts you've made being asked, ever, to speak about Mayo

On the contrary, Im being asked more questions and facing more responses about Mayo on this thread, than there are points on Dublin.

Billy Mays

When did he appeal it?

Bonniedog

Mayo, JG has upped the ante. Other teams are going to throw kitchen sink at Dublin this year. Including sort of stuff Kerry have been at with Fenton and others and dodgy decisions. He is operating as a true leader. Defending his men and hitting back. Would expect no less.

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

Mayo, JG has upped the ante. Other teams are going to throw kitchen sink at Dublin this year. Including sort of stuff Kerry have been at with Fenton and others and dodgy decisions. He is operating as a true leader. Defending his men and hitting back. Would expect no less.

But surely that can be done in a more honest, and id argue effective, manner? Maybe those were his intentions, but if they were, he could have done it a lot better for my mind. I give you the example of fitzmaurice, who did do what you are describing, just a lot better. He made the media look like a**h****, (which in fairness there is a bit of truth in a lot of the time). Gavin made himself look like one more than anyone else.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Not so much on a managerial level, but just as a person. Gavin had a respectability in his silence up to now. But any guy who will point blank lie to your face about things you both know are completely not true, would go down in most people's estimations, would they not?

Plus there is a downside of being ignorant with the press, when your time comes they will be waiting. Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool being a good example.

You are sounding even sillier then usual.







Gavin never said much to the press anyway similar to Dalglish.

Not much difference with him having no contact with RTE.

It is only big news for counties that have nothing better to talk about.

Sure it was the same craic when Micky Harte did not talk to RTE for years a non story.

CatInABox

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well Pat Spillane reading a statement for a start.

It was a written before the show, so I'd call that a statement.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Connolly choosing to accept his ban - if he chose to accept it then he wouldn't have appealed it.

It was Gavin's decision to go to the CHC, not Connollys, and Connolly put a stop to any further appeals, so I'd say Connolly choose to accept his ban.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That they were attacking his good name isn't true either

Depends on your opinion of course, but I believe that Gavin was pointing out that we've got the match officials, the CCCC, the CHC, and more, all involved in making decisions about who and what to punish. I don't think that we should have the Sunday Game panellists involved in that process, as they may interfere in due process. I believe that they did have an impact on this case, however minor, and that they shouldn't have done so.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The whole thing was quite disingenuous to be honest. It is reasonable to assume he will lose respect over that.

Again, I don't believe so. If he was saying that Connolly did nothing wrong, then yes, but that's the opposite of what he's saying.

MayoAreMagic

CatInABox wrote: »

It was a written before the show, so I'd call that a statement.

And you would be wrong. Spillane has stated he did not have a statement prepared. What he did have were bullet points on the topics being discussed, which is standard for punditry and completely reasonable.

CatInABox wrote: »

It was Gavin's decision to go to the CHC, not Connollys, and Connolly put a stop to any further appeals, so I'd say Connolly choose to accept his ban.

So says Gavin in his discredited spiel... People are going to need some actual proof before that claim can be accepted. The reality is it was appealed. The player could have stopped this happening. He didn't.

CatInABox wrote: »

Depends on your opinion of course, but I believe that Gavin was pointing out that we've got the match officials, the CCCC, the CHC, and more, all involved in making decisions about who and what to punish. I don't think that we should have the Sunday Game panellists involved in that process, as they may interfere in due process. I believe that they did have an impact on this case, however minor, and that they shouldn't have done so.

They aren't involved in the process though. They are pundits on a television program. Also, if gavin was 'pointing out' the above, he would have stated the above. He didn't.

CatInABox wrote: »

Again, I don't believe so. If he was saying that Connolly did nothing wrong, then yes, but that's the opposite of what he's saying.

What he tried to do with Spillane was completely disingenuous. What he claimed as regards gagging pundits until the refs report is out was disingenuous (He himself was talking in the media about the Westmeath game at the time, before the ref's report was out ffs).

Stop digging

Billy Mays

It was never appealed.

The 12 week suspension was proposed by the CCCC

Connolly didn't accept the proposal and requested a hearing from the CHC (Central Hearings Committee) which he was fully entitled to do.

They decided the suspension proposed by the CCCC would stand. The next step was an appeal with the CAC (Central Appeals Committee) which Dublin and Connolly decided not to take.

At no stage did Connolly or Dublin appeal.

CatInABox

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

And you would be wrong. Spillane has stated he did not have a statement prepared. What he did have were bullet points on the topics being discussed, which is standard for punditry and completely reasonable.

And where is the line between mere "bullet points" and a statement? If you've prepared them in advance, to be used to frame a discussion, then they are essentially a statement in my opinion.

Collins dictionary would agree with me: "A statement is something that you say or write which gives information in a formal or definite way."

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

So says Gavin in his discredited spiel... People are going to need some actual proof before that claim can be accepted. The reality is it was appealed. The player could have stopped this happening. He didn't.

Discredited? By whom? And why do we need to see proof? I can take him at his word, as I don't see a reason for him to lie about it. But if you are holding people to that high a standard, why do you believe Pat when he said he only had bullet points? That's just a hypothetical, I actually believe Pat only had bullet points, but I still think those points constitute a statement.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

They aren't involved in the process though. They are pundits on a television program. Also, if gavin was 'pointing out' the above, he would have stated the above. He didn't.

Which is my point, they're just pundits on a television program, and shouldn't have any influence on the disciplinary procedures. In this case (and in fact, in others throughout history), they did.

He didn't say it as clearly as that, no, but that's the logical conclusion from what he was saying. Allow and trust the referees to make the right decisions about disciplinary actions both during and after the game, without interference from pundits that may be pushing an angle. Surely you agree with that?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What he tried to do with Spillane was completely disingenuous. What he claimed as regards gagging pundits until the refs report is out was disingenuous (He himself was talking in the media about the Westmeath game at the time, before the ref's report was out ffs).

Stop digging

I don't think that it's disingenuous to want someone to be dealt with fairly in a disciplinary process. In a court of law, commenting on a case in such a fashion could result in a mistrial (and possible charges for the person doing the commentating).

Of course, the GAA isn't anywhere near as important as the legal profession, but it's no less unfair that people can colour the view of the disciplinary bodies, particularly as it's an amateur sport. The referee and linesman, both very experienced individuals, saw the event happen in real time and both thought nothing of it until it was highlighted after the game.

As for Gavin commenting on the game, his issue was with incidents that may be referred to a disciplinary body. Did he talk about any such incident?

STB.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What he tried to do with Spillane was completely disingenuous. What he claimed as regards gagging pundits until the refs report is out was disingenuous (He himself was talking in the media about the Westmeath game at the time, before the ref's report was out ffs).

Stop digging

Some might say what Spillane said was disingenuous.

It was quite rehearsed and stealthly delivered. Your own County Man Mortimer was one of the first to say as much.

BTW Have you nothing to do but wind up the Dubs, big man. You'd swear ye have nothing to talk about in your own County. Oh wait, you dont.

Stoner

STB. wrote:

BTW Have you nothing to do but wind up the Dubs, big man. You'd swear ye have nothing to talk about in your own County. Oh wait, you dont.

I'm telling you now he's no more from Mayo. They blank him on the Mayo forum all the time too.

He only ever posts after the highlights!