Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

Powerhouse

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have not even looked at the all-star team - stayed clear of any news on it.
To me it is relic of the past it makes no sense.

It is normally just made up of finalists and a few political decisions after that.

It is never really reflective of the best player in every position.
Fellas are switched from thier normal positions to accommodate other fellas

As well as that the old hat GAA traditional line out of 1-15 should be done away with.
Who plays that anymore?
There should be another 'gaa underdog' all-star team .

Never saw so many contradictions in a single post. You complain that people are being “moved out of their normal positions” to accommodate others but then ask what has the 1-15 positions got to do with anything these days? If you believe the latter then why object to people being moved around? Surely it’s just reflecting reality?

And you “haven’t looked at” the All Star team and think it’s a relic of the past but also think their should be a second All Star team and that they should play a match?!

gormdubhgorm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Never saw so many contradictions in a single post. You complain that people are being “moved out of their normal positions” to accommodate others but then ask what has the 1-15 positions got to do with anything these days? If you believe the latter then why object to people being moved around? Surely it’s just reflecting reality?

And you “haven’t looked at” the All Star team and think it’s a relic of the past but also think their should be a second All Star team and that they should play a match?!

But my point is it is not reflecting reality it never does.
That is not why players are moved around in positions to imitate line ups.
They move them around to try and shoehorn fellas in to get them an all-star.
Has any all star team had a sweeper position yet?
Where the fella actually played as sweeper.
That would be a real reflection of reality.

But instead they name forwards anywhere in the six to fit them in - for example.

I think there should be a second all-star team because it will give the lesser known fellas a run and at least 'jazz up' the relic of the past.
If we are still forced to be stuck with it.

gormdubhgorm

cms88 wrote: »

Yet you still comment on it?

It's funny how Dubs claim they don't care about All-Stars etc ye still rant and rave about it.

After tonight the POTY award will be relevant again to Dubs, after claiming it didn't matter the last two years

So I am not not permitted to comment on it and say the all-stars are silly?
I would hardly describe it as ranting and raving.
Do they hold any relevance for you in a GAA sense?

POTY award is another GAA political game regardless of who wins it.

As I said in an earlier post I would love to see the decision making process televised live in an open forum.
That would at least liven it up a bit.

OldMrBrennan83

Apart from Cluxton, the positions of a lot of players this year makes them even more past their sell by date.

Dyr

Looks like Mattie Kenny got the nod.

TBH time has shown that they should have appointed him last year over Gilroy

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cualas-mattie-kenny-set-to-be-named-dublin-senior-hurling-manager-883013.html

CatInABox

Bambi wrote: »

Looks like Mattie Kenny got the nod.

TBH time has shown that they should have appointed him last year over Gilroy

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cualas-mattie-kenny-set-to-be-named-dublin-senior-hurling-manager-883013.html

In fairness to Gilroy, Kenny would have had to do exactly the same stuff last year. The biggest gap between Dublin and the rest of the teams wasn't skill, it was physical strength. It's pretty clear that they spent the entire league campaign in the gym, and the marked improvement in Dublin's performances in the championship came not from players learning new tricks, just bulking up so that they weren't bullied off the ball so easily, able to fire the ball the same distances, etc.

Honestly, I can't really fault Gilroys first year, he did exactly what he needed to do, and Kenny takes over a team that's in a much better place.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Kenny can do with them now.

Bonniedog

It is true what you say about physical conditioning and aggression. They are default for any team with serious ambitions. On top of that hurling requires high skill levels so it is a big ask, and Dublin were in danger of slipping back into mediocrity.


In fairness to Ger Cunningham he was left with an impossible situation. Because of Cuala and lads leaving, he was forced to field teams full of "callow youths" and they just were not able to cope with the big guns.


Having said that, some of those new players clearly benefitted from being thrown in the deep end -Whitley for one off top of head - so although his reign was not a glorious one, he did some service.

Dyr

CatInABox wrote: »

Honestly, I can't really fault Gilroys first year, he did exactly what he needed to do, and Kenny takes over a team that's in a much better place.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Kenny can do with them now.

What stings my hole about Gilroy isn't what he did last year (he did a good job) but how he left. A fella who never shut up about total commitment and worked the players like dogs at all hours goes "sorry lads, things have picked up in work, I'm off". Yeah, thanks Pat, there's commitment for ya.

JRant

In fairness to Gilroy, he was only ever a stopgap and he probably knew that himself. He did alright in his single year in charge but we were truly awful in the league and only for a couple of half decent showings in the championship it would have been a complete failure.

Kenny is a hurling man through and through, where we’ll see his real benefit is tactically. I think Gilroy and Cunningham really struggled with how the game is played now.

Stoner

POTY is relevant to Dublin this year. It was relevant to no other county

Kerry got 9 all stars in 1981 after their 4 in a row.

The 2017, 2016 goalkeeping all star awards were poor decisions IMO.

The 2017 POTY and the 2018 goalkeeping All-Star were not.

IMO and shared by more knowledgeable GAA people than us, Cluxton did revolutionise the position of goalkeeping. You might be sick hearing it but that does not make it a myth, it an opinion held by Pat Spillane, TOS and many noted GAA people.
Again you might not like him or his county but many of the greats have huge respect for him. Something that annoys you and or you don't agree with does not become a myth.

Beggan deserved it this year unlike the previously mentioned years.

This is what TOS said about Cluxton in the indo

"It's not about that he (Cluxton) has more than 200 appearances for Dublin or that he has lifted the cup five times (as captain), which is phenomenal. It's about the greatest football team arguably we have ever seen and this fella is the heartbeat of it every single game."

Ó Sé insists Cluxton's brilliance is demonstrated by the way that he has helped change the game.

"He is the most important player in the GAA in the last 50 or 60 years and he has changed the way the game is played"

If you honestly think Clarke deserved the all star last year after his 4 mistakes in the Championship quarter in 2017, so be it.

If you can't see what Cluxton brings to a very successful team possibly you need to evaluate how you look at the game and how performances are measured, particularly in critical games at critical times.
Possibly reconsider calling widely held opinions on subjective issues, myths. Particularly when many of the greats of the game think differently. It clearly annoys you as you repeat the same points here yet you talk about others ranting.

OldMrBrennan83

Great news about Kenny, I didn't think he'd take it.
Though as mentioned before, Ger Cunningham probably benefitted Dublin hurling more for now than he'll be given credit for.

windy shepard henderson

Kenny should have been given the job last year , i feel the Dublin board would have liked a more high profile person

Kenny is the best choice and deserves time but i am convinced they wanted daly , fitz was also on there radar before the wexford board called with half the team to his house

Dublin hurling in a great position tonight

corny

Stoner wrote: »

Snsists Cluxton's brilliance is demonstrated by the way that he has helped change the game.

"He is the most important player in the GAA in the last 50 or 60 years and he has changed the way the game is played"

Correlation and causation always come to mind when i hear this about Cluxton.

As far as O Se knows some stats fella who reasoned possession is important is responsible for changing the game. Going from 'good exponent' to 'most important player in the GAA in the last 50 or 60 years' is a leap without evidence imo. Who's to say we wouldn't be in the exact same place (with respect to the kickouts) now if Cluxton called it a day in his late twenties.

gormdubhgorm

Patww79 wrote: »

Great news about Kenny, I didn't think he'd take it.
Though as mentioned before, Ger Cunningham probably benefitted Dublin hurling more for now than he'll be given credit for.

Would he be able to get Con to hurl for Dublin wars my first thought?
He would not be required for the footballers in the Leinster games anyway.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would he be able to get Con to hurl for Dublin wars my first thought?
He would not be required for the footballers in the Leinster games anyway.

Can't see Con or any lad with a realistic prospect of being on Gavins teamsheet leaving that set up

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

Can't see Con or any lad with a realistic prospect of being on Gavins teamsheet leaving that set up

Surely Gavin and Kenny could make some sort of arrangement (if Con is willing of course.)
It is madness he does not hurl for Dublin.
With the footballers he is just another cog in the wheel.
With the hurlers he could be the leader on the the team.

ProudDUB

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Surely Gavin and Kenny could make some sort of arrangement (if Con is willing of course.)
It is madness he does not hurl for Dublin.
With the footballers he is just another cog in the wheel.
With the hurlers he could be the leader on the the team.

Ah here. Con already plays a vital role for the footballers. He will become even more important in a couple of years time, when the likes of Berno, Dermo, Flynner, Paddy Andrews, Kev Mc etc have all permanently ridden off into the sunset. Add in other forwards like Costello & McHugh having fitness/form issues that see them struggle to nail down spots in the starting line up & Con is going to become even more important.

Ok, so he had a difficult second album season this year & we didn't need him to reach the heights he did last year, in order to retain Sam. But he's a very, very important part of the footballers future & will be a real leader for us some day. If he's not a leader for the footballers now, its because he doesn't need to be. We already have a lot of strong leaders in the dressing room & on the pitch. Jim is probably perfectly content to let him do his talking on the pitch. And when it comes to what he does on the pitch, we are not talking about some unknown quantity, who is struggling to make the match day panels. We're talking about a 2017 All Star winner.

There is no way Jim Gavin will just sit idly by & let him spending half his summer playing a different sport & just rock back up to the footballers in August. None whatsoever.

Stoner

corny wrote: »

Correlation and causation always come to mind when i hear this about Cluxton.

As far as O Se knows some stats fella who reasoned possession is important is responsible for changing the game. Going from 'good exponent' to 'most important player in the GAA in the last 50 or 60 years' is a leap without evidence imo. Who's to say we wouldn't be in the exact same place (with respect to the kickouts) now if Cluxton called it a day in his late twenties.

The point was that it's not a myth, not that I necessarily agree with him or disagree with you. It's something people consider true.

Cluxtons winning score in 2011 for me was critical, showed huge character, something other before him lacked

After that it's all subjective opinion.

That said he takes a huge amount of pressure for the team, pressure that lads like Ciaran Whelan and Charlie Redmund carried for Dublin in the past, as in being the key
Player to stop. No other keeper is under that spotlight.

With monaghan it's about stopping McManus etc. With Dublin it's about pushing up on cluxton to force errors

None of that makes you the most important player in the game. But IMO he's better than Clarke.

Bonniedog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would he be able to get Con to hurl for Dublin wars my first thought?
He would not be required for the footballers in the Leinster games anyway.

Every football manager since Caffrey has made a choice between senior county hurling and football. Gilroy, ironically although some of us did not forget!, prevented Rory O'Carroll winning a Leinster hurling final and getting to AI final in 2010 where he would have made a difference. Footballers were gone by August by the way.

Even minors and 21s are given stark choice by football management. So there is no way Callaghan is going to play both.

DoctaDee

At inter county level it is a one sport game and that goes all the way down to the dev squads from my experience

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Every football manager since Caffrey has made a choice between senior county hurling and football. Gilroy, ironically although some of us did not forget!, prevented Rory O'Carroll winning a Leinster hurling final and getting to AI final in 2010 where he would have made a difference. Footballers were gone by August by the way.

Even minors and 21s are given stark choice by football management. So there is no way Callaghan is going to play both.

It is an awful waste.
They are amateurs after all and should not be forced to pick one code over the other.
Particularly in the case of Dublin where the football team could field three teams and are light years ahead of everyone in Leinster.
It seems very selfish to get top quality hurlers, nailed down to play football.

Lee Chin is the only fella I can think of that does both for Wexford and they manage his time.

windy shepard henderson

DoctaDee wrote: »

At inter county level it is a one sport game and that goes all the way down to the dev squads from my experience

for several reasons i dont agree with this , first of all teanagers should have no problem committing to both codes they probably are in there prime of fitness at 15, 16 , 17
for example if you tell all young duel players in dublin at the moment to make a choice between football or hurling they will pick football , they are not all going to make it so when a player switch's back in code he will have lost out in valuable training

i will use my own county as an example , in the last two years we got to 2 munster finals in football and got hammered , because the bulk of our best footballers on our development squad were with the hurlers for that time , despite not playing for the footballers they still trained behind the scenes

we got to two all ireland 1/4 finals in the last two years losing narrowly to dublin and galway with far stronger teams then the ones that lost to kerry because the hurlers were finished and back playing football, the fact is all them lads on the hurling panel might not make it so we can have them playing a decent standard of football instead

dublin hurling would really lose out at the moment as a result if you made kids chose code at a young age

gormdubhgorm

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

for several reasons i dont agree with this , first of all teanagers should have no problem committing to both codes they probably are in there prime of fitness at 15, 16 , 17
for example if you tell all young duel players in dublin at the moment to make a choice between football or hurling they will pick football , they are not all going to make it so when a player switch's back in code he will have lost out in valuable training

i will use my own county as an example , in the last two years we got to 2 munster finals in football and got hammered , because the bulk of our best footballers on our development squad were with the hurlers for that time , despite not playing for the footballers they still trained behind the scenes

we got to two all ireland 1/4 finals in the last two years losing narrowly to dublin and galway with far stronger teams then the ones that lost to kerry because the hurlers were finished and back playing football, the fact is all them lads on the hurling panel might not make it so we can have them playing a decent standard of football instead

dublin hurling would really lose out at the moment as a result if you made kids chose code at a young age

At club level clubs like Shaughneil and Ballyboden seem to manage it with large numbers playing both codes.
In fact it seems to drive them on and they revel in it.

windy shepard henderson

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

At club level clubs like Shaughneil and Ballyboden seem to manage it with large numbers playing both codes.
In fact it seems to drive them on and they revel in it.

100% agree , if you look at the duel counties like offaly, cork , even wexford that have suffered because of one sport dominating over the other if people are not singing from the same sheet you only will have problems and most clubs know this

it is the first thing clubs like slaughneil and ballyboden would preach

ProudDUB

We can't compare club & county when talking about dual players. They are night and day in terms of the demands made on a player. Just because a club can manage it, it's not a given that it's workable at inter county level, especially at the very highest level.

Player burn out would worry me too, especially when players are in their teens & early 20's & they are trying to serve two masters in two codes at club, college, underage & intercounty levels. Something has to give somewhere. If there was a better organization and structure, whereby all the various stakeholders, managers, coaches, selectors, physio's, doctors etc etc were all communicating & looking out for players best interests & not their own, maybe things would be better, but it's the GAA. That'll never happen.

Bonniedog

The annoying thing from Dublin hurling perspective - and obviously applies in Clare too from the other perspective, as above - is that the choice is forced on young fellas from an increasingly early age. Often on lads who might not even make it through a football development programme to regular inter county but who are expected to give up hurling when they are 15 or 16!


On top of that we have had the footballers over the past ten years using same threat over players who were always going to be surplus to requirements. Two excellent hurlers, Mark Schutte and Tom Brady are in that boat at present. Shane Ryan and Keaney possibly had the maturity and self confidence to go and tell them to have a running jump, and both had some excellent years with the hurlers rather than warming a bench for Gilroy and Gavin.

blanch152

Stoner wrote: »

POTY is relevant to Dublin this year. It was relevant to no other county

Kerry got 9 all stars in 1981 after their 4 in a row.

The 2017, 2016 goalkeeping all star awards were poor decisions IMO.

The 2017 POTY and the 2018 goalkeeping All-Star were not.

IMO and shared by more knowledgeable GAA people than us, Cluxton did revolutionise the position of goalkeeping. You might be sick hearing it but that does not make it a myth, it an opinion held by Pat Spillane, TOS and many noted GAA people.
Again you might not like him or his county but many of the greats have huge respect for him. Something that annoys you and or you don't agree with does not become a myth.

Beggan deserved it this year unlike the previously mentioned years.

This is what TOS said about Cluxton in the indo

"It's not about that he (Cluxton) has more than 200 appearances for Dublin or that he has lifted the cup five times (as captain), which is phenomenal. It's about the greatest football team arguably we have ever seen and this fella is the heartbeat of it every single game."

Ó Sé insists Cluxton's brilliance is demonstrated by the way that he has helped change the game.

"He is the most important player in the GAA in the last 50 or 60 years and he has changed the way the game is played"

If you honestly think Clarke deserved the all star last year after his 4 mistakes in the Championship quarter in 2017, so be it.

If you can't see what Cluxton brings to a very successful team possibly you need to evaluate how you look at the game and how performances are measured, particularly in critical games at critical times.
Possibly reconsider calling widely held opinions on subjective issues, myths. Particularly when many of the greats of the game think differently. It clearly annoys you as you repeat the same points here yet you talk about others ranting.

Agree with everything except the Beggan bit.

Beggan, like Clarke kicked away possession at the end of his team's All-Ireland campaign. That was enough to take away from everything he had done before.

Looking back further, despite all the points scored, there were two last-minute goals conceded that you have to ask where was his goalkeeping?

Beggan was closer to Cluxton in performance that Clarke was in either of his two successful years, but the All-Stars are picked by journalists like Breheny.

CatInABox

https://twitter.com/DubGAAOfficial/status/1059907485031677954

Something to tide us over until the O'Byrne cup starts up, and for a good cause too. Down in Navan on the the 16th December, chilly.

ProudDUB

We should bring Sam. And Bob too. And charge everyone from Meath A FCUKING TRUCKLOAD of money to have their pictures taken with the two lads.

castletownman

Completely random question. Does any stats enthusiast know of any online source that has a definitive breakdown of Dublin's championship scorers on a yearly basis?

I have been researching the top scorer for each championship season for a project I am doing, but for some reason cannot find out what Charlie Redmond's tally was in 1994. Or indeed verify that he was the top scorer that year.