New Metal Light Switches not Earthed!

cheif kaiser

I just had a new kitchen and bathroom installed just before Christmas and specified that I wanted metal sockets and switches installed. I have just discovered (by accident) that they basically used the old wiring in the house and none of the light switches are earthed :mad:

I brought this to the installers attention and insisted that the issue be fixed. He sent the electrician from the job down to have a look and his answer was... Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic. I refused this as an option and he is now not answering any of my emails or texts.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

Thanks.

Pkiernan

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I just had a new kitchen and bathroom installed just before Christmas and specified that I wanted metal sockets and switches installed. I have just discovered (by accident) that they basically used the old wiring in the house and none of the light switches are earthed :mad:

I brought this to the installers attention and insisted that the issue be fixed. He sent the electrician from the job down to have a look and his answer was... Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic. I refused this as an option and he is now not answering any of my emails or texts.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

Thanks.

Would chrome look plastic ones work for you?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0158QELWS?psc=1

cheif kaiser

Pkiernan wrote: »

Would chrome look plastic ones work for you?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0158QELWS?psc=1

These unfortunately are just the surround that fits over a light switch but thanks for suggestion.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Well there is no way we can get an earth to it now so we will just pull all the switches and change them back to white plastic.

In which case they should not have fitted the switches.

Is there anything I can do about this and is there any alternative to ugly white switches when all my sockets are chrome?

You could get an earth pulled to each switch. This may not be easy, but it is possible.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

In which case they should not have fitted the switches.

Yes, I completely agree but they don't seem to care.

2011 wrote: »

You could get an earth pulled to each switch. This may not be easy, but it is possible.

Have explored this option and no electrician seems to be interested in doing it. Too much hassle apparently.

cheif kaiser

I've just noticed that the back boxes are also metal so even if I replace the switches with plastic switches there is still a danger?

Sleeper12

What other electrical works did they do? Did they issue a cert?

I ask this because if they did more than replace light switches, maybe an electric or power shower,or did any work on the fusebox then they should have issued you with a reci cert. RECI then make them come back to do it properly & safely for free

cheif kaiser

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What other electrical works did they do? Did they issue a cert?

I ask this because if they did more than replace light switches, maybe an electric or power shower,or did any work on the fusebox then they should have issued you with a reci cert. RECI then make them come back to do it properly & safely for free

Ye they fitted a power shower, fitted new spots, none of these are earthed either but they seem to be just clip on metal parts, although 1 in the hall was fully metal and I replaced this myself with a double insulated. Most of the work they did in the kitchen was also new. The kitchen was ripped back to a shell and all new sockets added which they seem to have just attached onto the old circuit.

No cert was issued for any of the work.

Sleeper12

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Ye they fitted a power shower, fitted new spots, none of these are earthed either but they seem to be just clip on metal parts, although 1 in the hall was fully metal and I replaced this myself with a double insulated. Most of the work they did in the kitchen was also new. The kitchen was ripped back to a shell and all new sockets added which they seem to have just attached onto the old circuit.

No cert was issued for any of the work.

Anything in the bathroom has to be done by a REC & certed. If they fitted a power shower without RCD protection it can be lethal & very illegal. Many just take a spur from a light or socket. This will power the shower no problem but you have no protection as you shower.
If it were me I would tell them that you will report them if the work isn't done correctly with a cert. If they don't fix it I would report them here http://www.safeelectric.ie/
To be honest you should just report them anyway. They could kill someone in the next house they work on. As a society we don't like to report anyone but lives are at risk here.
I don't believe they used electricians at all on your job. I'd like to think no electrician would do this quality work. Think about this, even a fully qualified electrician can't do any electrical work in a bathroom unless they are a REC.
I'm a plumber so maybe some of the electricians here can help you out more

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I've just noticed that the back boxes are also metal so even if I replace the switches with plastic switches there is still a danger?

Theoretically, yes. In the even of the back box becoming live the exposed screws on the front of the light switch would also be live. Obviously it would be easy to make contact with these screws resulting in a shock. If the switch box was earthed the circuit should automatically disconnect if the box were to become live thus averting the shock risk.

cheif kaiser

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If they don't fix it I would report them here http://www.safeelectric.ie/
To be honest you should just report them anyway. They could kill someone in the next house they work on. As a society we don't like to report anyone but lives are at risk here.
I don't believe they used electricians at all on your job.

Wasn't even aware of www.safeelectric.ie so thank you for that info, I will definitely report them.

I asked multiple times as to the qualifications of the electrician and just from taking to him about his plans to further his career, I would be almost sure he was a qualified electrician.

He of course is now blaming the builder and the builder is blaming him!

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Theoretically, yes. In the even of the back box becoming live the exposed screws on the front of the light switch would also be live. Obviously it would be easy to make contact with these screws resulting in a shock. If the switch box was earthed the circuit should automatically disconnect if the box were to become live thus averting the shock risk.

Thanks for that I had a feeling that leaving the metal boxes would still pose a danger.

Could anyone advise as to what plastic back boxes I should get for inside a concrete wall? I can only find plastic for stud walls or for surface mounting.

I really want to remove these switches asap, I am becoming afraid to even touch them. Once they are removed and all is safe I can relax and look into getting the house properly earthed.

Thanks.

Free-2-Flow

If your house is in the 60's period chances are it has no earthing in the lights at all, Houses that old generally may have to be rewired to adhere to the modern day

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

If your house is in the 60's period chances are it has no earthing in the lights at all, Houses that old generally may have to be rewired to adhere to the modern day

House is actually from the 40's It was rewired years ago and everything is earthed except the lights and light switches. From what I can gather this was not required at the time but having requested metal switches and fittings and gutted the kitchen back to bare walls and being charged for 1st fix and second fix, I naturally assumed that they had wired correctly for these fittings.

I never thought for 1 minute that anyone would risk doing something so dangerous and reckless as not earthing metal fittings. Had I not discovered it by accident and had a little knowledge on electrics, I would be none the wiser, until one day one of my family members was blown across the room!

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

I never thought for 1 minute that anyone would risk doing something so dangerous and reckless as not earthing metal fittings. Had I not discovered it by accident and had a little knowledge on electrics, I would be none the wiser, until one day one of my family members was blown across the room!

When was it rewired? Are they black and red?

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

When was it rewired? Are they black and red?

Can't be sure of the year but yes they are black and red.

Free-2-Flow

Oddly enough back in the day it wasn't mandatory to earth light switches so even though brass fittings were a popular thing.

As far as I know the colours changed in 2004 along with the regs.

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

Red and black with a bare copper earth in sockets can be very dangerous, later to be covered in green, before the 2004 regs.

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Oddly enough back in the day it wasn't mandatory to earth light switches so even though brass fittings were a popular thing.

As far as I know the colours changed in 2004 along with the regs.

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

Red and black with a bare copper earth in sockets can be very dangerous, later to be covered in green, before the 2004 regs.

It was rewired much further back than 2004 and that's for certain but the earth wires that I have seen in the house are all covered green and the wiring looks good, no deterioration or anything like that.

The fuse board was also changed around 8 years ago and from what I can recall some new earthing was also doe at that time.

I have replaced most of the centre ceiling lights in the last few years and even I knew that they needed to be double insulated and are.

That's another reason I am so Pi** ed off about this. Any wiring I did, which was minimal, I made sure to make sure it was safe. Then along comes a professional and does this!??! It's so infuriating :mad:

Free-2-Flow

cheif kaiser wrote:

That's another reason I am so Pi** ed off about this. Any wiring I did, which was minimal, I made sure to make sure it was safe. Then along comes a professional and does this!??! It's so infuriating

Just thinking out loud here, and maybe I'm wrong, but what is more dangerous.

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

cheif kaiser

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

Plastic fittings with metal screws is what we had for years (This is the old family home) and no harm came to anyone.

I'm not saying that is good practice either but the chances of the live becoming loose and touching one of the screws and then someone touching one of the screws would be fairly slim.

The chances of the whole cover becoming live would be much more likely and the chances of someone then touching the cover would be very likely.

I'm sure you can also get boxes that isolate the screw housing from the wiring?

2011

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

But how long before that were they wired? Cables have a life span of 30 years before they start degrading.

It is a simple enough process for an electrician to test the integrity of the insulation by carrying out an insulation resistance test. I have seen PVC insulated cables far older than this pass IR tests by a very large margin. If installed correctly looks ok it generally passes with flying colours. It would be worth checking though.

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

A metal fitting with no earth or a plastic fitting with metal screws and no earth? Both equally dangerous I would think?

There is a higher risk with the metal light switch.

cheif kaiser

Anyone tell me what type of plastic back box would be suitable for in a concrete wall please? Can only find surface mount or stud wall boxes.

Thanks!

ellobee

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Anyone tell me what type of plastic back box would be suitable for in a concrete wall please? Can only find surface mount or stud wall boxes.

Thanks!

as these switches are in areas where you could possibly have wet hands and bare feet I would definitely change the switches back to plastic, you could also fit plastic/nylon screws to get over the metal box problem, your families safety is more important than the look of your kitchen

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

as these switches are in areas where you could possibly have wet hands and bare feet I would definitely change the switches back to plastic, you could also fit plastic/nylon screws to get over the metal box problem, your families safety is more important than the look of your kitchen

I completely agree! I want to remove them now and when I can find someone to run earth wires I'll put them back.

My hope was that I could find a better alternative to white plastic, even black plastic would have been a better option.

The issue I have now, is that I don't know what type of back boxes are the correct ones to use?

DublinDilbert

Is the wiring to the switches accessible? Partition walls? In conduit?

I would just drop the earths now, as easy as changing all the switches. If you've changed light fittings, running an earth is easy enough. Then just ask a rec to connect it up.

ellobee

Changing the boxes will be a bit messy, probably some plastering and painting required afterwards, but if you do want them changed probably something like this is what you want, but any good electrical shop can advise you, or as I said previously a nylon screw would be an easier option.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/eBoot-Pieces-Spacer-Standoff-Assorted/dp/B06XFV5629/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1496905603&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=nylon+screws&psc=1

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

Changing the boxes will be a bit messy, probably some plastering and painting required afterwards, but if you do want them changed probably something like this is what you want, but any good electrical shop can advise you, or as I said previously a nylon screw would be an easier option.

Oh I get what you mean now sorry! Leave the metal back boxes and screw the fronts on with nylon screws That's actually a great idea, thanks! Have been working all night so brain not functioning correctly

Don't suppose you know what size screws I would need?

ellobee

I think the standard size is M3.5 and then the length depends on how far back your box is, but you could just get long ones and cut them to suit. I'm not sure how easy it is to get them, you might have to order them online and in a bigger quantity than you need, or you could try an electrical wholesaler and see if they can order them in for you

cheif kaiser

ellobee wrote: »

I think the standard size is M3.5 and then the length depends on how far back your box is, but you could just get long ones and cut them to suit. I'm not sure how easy it is to get them, you might have to order them online and in a bigger quantity than you need, or you could try an electrical wholesaler and see if they can order them in for you

Found them in Radionics which is in my area so I'll take a quick trip around there later.

Thanks for your help and everyone else

2011

Don't go fiddling with this yourself. You paid a professional to do this properly, make him do it as per the regulations. End of.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Don't go fiddling with this yourself. You paid a professional to do this properly, make him do it as per the regulations. End of.

Easier said than done when he won't answer phone, reply to texts or answer emails. No amount of threats of Reci, Court, etc, has worked!

He actually had the ba**s to tell me not to text him anymore as I was upsetting him!