Tax on Bitcoin Profits

jobless

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://irishtechnews.ie/calling-all-new-irish-crypto-millionaires-what-will-your-tax-bill-look-like/

just reading that.... so if i make realized profits of below the 1250 amount i still need to do a tax return?

jobless

jobless wrote: »

just reading that.... so if i make realized profits of below the 1250 amount i still need to do a tax return?

yes

RoboKlopp

RoboKlopp wrote: »

yes

Its a bit ridicilous no? I didn't know that nor would most people I'd wager.

With CAT for example there is no need to declare if under the 3k per person limit or unless you get very close to a life-time group threashold.

At the end of the day if no tax is due I can't see someone getting in much if any trouble for not making a return.

Peregrinus

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

Its a bit ridicilous no? I didn't know that nor would most people I'd wager.

With CAT for example there is no need to declare if under the 3k per person limit or unless you get very close to a life-time group threashold.

At the end of the day if no tax is due I can't see someone getting in much if any trouble for not making a return.

Your return each year should detail your acquisitions in the year as well as your disposals. Acquisitions are not, in themselves, taxable events but they do establish acquisition cost, which is relevant data when assets are disposed of. But in order to match up acquisitions and disposals (e.g. to apply the FIFO rule, where relevant) they need to track all your disposals, not just the ones that give rise to a charge to tax.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

Your return each year should detail your acquisitions in the year as well as your disposals. Acquisitions are not, in themselves, taxable events but they do establish acquisition cost, which is relevant data when assets are disposed of. But in order to match up acquisitions and disposals (e.g. to apply the FIFO rule, where relevant) they need to track all your disposals, not just the ones that give rise to a charge to tax.

You surely don't have to make a return if you acquire in a tax year but don't sell?

Peregrinus

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

You surely don't have to make a return if you acquire in a tax year but don't sell?

I'm open to correction on this, but I think you are supposed to.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but I think you are supposed to.

Sounds crazy, that can't be the case. How is someone supposed to know that it makes no sense.

That's like saying if I buy sterling for a holiday I should declare it in incase it goes up in value compared to the euro I changed over.

Kallie Jealous Throwback

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

Its a bit ridicilous no? I didn't know that nor would most people I'd wager.

With CAT for example there is no need to declare if under the 3k per person limit or unless you get very close to a life-time group threashold.

At the end of the day if no tax is due I can't see someone getting in much if any trouble for not making a return.

Ask the revenue, I'm only relaying their rules!

cnocbui

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

Sounds crazy, that can't be the case. How is someone supposed to know that it makes no sense.

That's like saying if I buy sterling for a holiday I should declare it in incase it goes up in value compared to the euro I changed over.

I wonder what the fine is for not paying tax you don't owe?

Blacktie.

cnocbui wrote: »

I wonder what the fine is for not paying tax you don't owe?

I'd imagine it's substantial!

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

I wonder what the fine is for not paying tax you don't owe?

The revenue penalties are draconian.

Tax owed + fines + interest accrued yearly. It could add up very quickly.

No getting out of paying it either afaik.

cnocbui

RoboKlopp wrote: »

The revenue penalties are draconian.

Tax owed + fines + interest accrued yearly. It could add up very quickly.

No getting out of paying it either afaik.

I think you misinterpreted what I said.

I was just wondering what the consequences would be for not submitting the form in order to tell Revenue that you didn't owe them anything.

Shauny2010

What forms do I need to fill in to declare my Bitcoin holdings even if I have never sold any. Also I have some Bitcoin with over 4 years now , never sold any but never declared holding them as I did not think it necessary when I wasn't selling any?
Also I bought a number of bitcoin for my children, they sit on paper wallets, do I have to declare there holding also? Or submit a form for them?

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

I think you misinterpreted what I said.

I was just wondering what the consequences would be for not submitting the form in order to tell Revenue that you didn't owe them anything.

Ah sorry. No idea tbh.

Peregrinus

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

You surely don't have to make a return if you acquire in a tax year but don't sell?

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but I think you are supposed to.

I've looked further into this. Turns out what I said before is wrong. Or, at any rate, not completely right.

In general, you don't have to submit a tax return unless the Revenue require it. If you're an ordinary PAYE worker with a bit of interest income, taxed at source, and not much else, they generally don't require it.

If they do require it, you will have to fill out and submit either Form 12 or Form 11, depending on which they think is appropriate to your circumstances. If you follow the links, you'll see that Form 12 requires you (in section 78) to report details of disposals during the relevant tax year, and the gains arising on them, but does not require details of acquisitions. However Form 11 requires details of disposals (in section L) and details of acquisitions (in section M).

Assuming you start out in life as but a humble PAYE worker who doesn't have to file a return, that state of affairs will continue until the Revenue become aware that your fiscal life has become more diverse and interesting. If you have never come to their attention before, and then you start investing in cryptocurrencies and you make a gain, when you report a gain and pay tax on it is the first time this will happen. At that stage they will ask you to complete a tax return for the year in question, and you must. They could ask you to complete either Form 12 or Form 11, so you will need to keep records which will enable you to complete Form 11 if required. "I didn't bother to keep records" is not going to be an acceptable excuse for failing to submit a tax return, if required to. Once they have asked you to complete a tax return for the year, they are likely to require one for each future year as well.

What do you do if they ask you to complete a Form 11 you don't have the information you need to do so? You take yourself off to an accountant or tax adviser, would be my suggestion, and see if he can get the Revenue to accept that Form 12 is appropriate to your circumstances. But note that you'll probably be required to complete Form 11 for the following year, so lift your game, record-keeping-wise.

cnocbui wrote: »

I wonder what the fine is for not paying tax you don't owe?

Nil. But there is a financial penalty for failing to submit a tax return when required, and this can be imposed even if the tax return would have shown that you had no unpaid tax liability.

jobless

Shauny2010 wrote: »

What forms do I need to fill in to declare my Bitcoin holdings even if I have never sold any. Also I have some Bitcoin with over 4 years now , never sold any but never declared holding them as I did not think it necessary when I wasn't selling any?
Also I bought a number of bitcoin for my children, they sit on paper wallets, do I have to declare there holding also? Or submit a form for them?

you dont have to declare your holdings if you havent sold i would say

boardie100

Peregrinus wrote: »

I've looked further into this. Turns out what I said before is wrong. Or, at any rate, not completely right.

In general, you don't have to submit a tax return unless the Revenue require it. If you're an ordinary PAYE worker with a bit of interest income, taxed at source, and not much else, they generally don't require it.

If they do require it, you will have to fill out and submit either Form 12 or Form 11, depending on which they think is appropriate to your circumstances. If you follow the links, you'll see that Form 12 requires you (in section 78) to report details of disposals during the relevant tax year, and the gains arising on them, but does not require details of acquisitions. However Form 11 requires details of disposals (in section L) and details of acquisitions (in section M).

Assuming you start out in life as but a humble PAYE worker who doesn't have to file a return, that state of affairs will continue until the Revenue become aware that your fiscal life has become more diverse and interesting. If you have never come to their attention before, and then you start investing in cryptocurrencies and you make a gain, when you report a gain and pay tax on it is the first time this will happen. At that stage they will ask you to complete a tax return for the year in question, and you must. They could ask you to complete either Form 12 or Form 11, so you will need to keep records which will enable you to complete Form 11 if required. "I didn't bother to keep records" is not going to be an acceptable excuse for failing to submit a tax return, if required to. Once they have asked you to complete a tax return for the year, they are likely to require one for each future year as well.

What do you do if they ask you to complete a Form 11 you don't have the information you need to do so? You take yourself off to an accountant or tax adviser, would be my suggestion, and see if he can get the Revenue to accept that Form 12 is appropriate to your circumstances. But note that you'll probably be required to complete Form 11 for the following year, so lift your game, record-keeping-wise.


Nil. But there is a financial penalty for failing to submit a tax return when required, and this can be imposed even if the tax return would have shown that you had no unpaid tax liability.

so i take from your reply.... if im a PAYE worker (married) i can realise gains of 3500 and not have to return any forms?

I dont get why there is two forms for reporting.... why would they require you to use one over the other

Peregrinus

boardie100 wrote: »

so i take from your reply.... if im a PAYE worker (married) i can realise gains of 3500 and not have to return any forms?

You don't have to complete a tax return unless and until they ask you to complete a tax return.

But you do have to tell then that you have made a capital gain, and you do have to pay tax on that gain. And, when you tell them that, they'll ask you to complete a tax return.

boardie100 wrote: »

I dont get why there is two forms for reporting.... why would they require you to use one over the other

One's much longer than the other, and requires a lot more information, and is aimed at taxpayers with more complex tax affairs, or tax affairs thought to require a higher degree of scrutiny. The majority of people who are asked to complete a return are asked to complete Form 12, which is the shorter form, but you have to complete whichever one they ask you to complete.

boardie100

Peregrinus wrote: »

You don't have to complete a tax return unless and until they ask you to complete a tax return.

But you do have to tell then that you have made a capital gain, and you do have to pay tax on that gain. And, when you tell them that, they'll ask you to complete a tax return.


One's much longer than the other, and requires a lot more information, and is aimed at taxpayers with more complex tax affairs, or tax affairs thought to require a higher degree of scrutiny. The majority of people who are asked to complete a return are asked to complete Form 12, which is the shorter form, but you have to complete whichever one they ask you to complete.

thanks.... sorry i meant 2500.... is that correct if you are married?

as regards the form and which one they ask you to complete.... is this something you ask before you do the tax return or after?....

i.e. i cash out throughout the year, first time doing that.... i need to ring them and ask which form before year end?

Peregrinus

boardie100 wrote: »

thanks.... sorry i meant 2500.... is that correct if you are married?

No. You and your wife each have an annual 1,270 euro small gains allowance but, unlike income tax, these are not transferrable between spouses. If the bitcoin you dispose of are yours, you only have your own allowance to set against any gain. If they are jointly-owned, then you and the other co-owner are entitled to half the disposal proceeds and half the gain, and each of you calculates and pays CGT on that basis. You will each have your own small gains allowance. This is the case whether or not you and the other co-owner are married.

boardie100 wrote: »

as regards the form and which one they ask you to complete.... is this something you ask before you do the tax return or after?....

To be honest, I'm not sure of the nuts and bolts. If you make a gain at any time up to November, you have to calculate and pay your CGT by mid-December. (For gains made in December, you have until the following April.) If I were in this situation, I'd ring the Revenue and say "I've got a gain on which I have to pay CGT; what's the drill?" and they'll tell you what to do and, I would guess, refer you to, or send you out, the form they want to to complete.

ZeroThreat

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. You and your wife each have an annual 1,270 euro small gains allowance but, unlike income tax, these are not transferrable between spouses. If the bitcoin you dispose of are yours, you only have your own allowance to set against any gain. If they are jointly-owned, then you and the other co-owner are entitled to half the disposal proceeds and half the gain, and each of you calculates and pays CGT on that basis. You will each have your own small gains allowance. This is the case whether or not you and the other co-owner are married.


To be honest, I'm not sure of the nuts and bolts. If you make a gain at any time up to November, you have to calculate and pay your CGT by mid-December. (For gains made in December, you have until the following April.) If I were in this situation, I'd ring the Revenue and say "I've got a gain on which I have to pay CGT; what's the drill?" and they'll tell you what to do and, I would guess, refer you to, or send you out, the form they want to to complete.

I presume the forms can be downloaded and submitted online via ROS?

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

I've looked further into this. Turns out what I said before is wrong. Or, at any rate, not completely right.

In general, you don't have to submit a tax return unless the Revenue require it. If you're an ordinary PAYE worker with a bit of interest income, taxed at source, and not much else, they generally don't require it.

If they do require it, you will have to fill out and submit either Form 12 or Form 11, depending on which they think is appropriate to your circumstances. If you follow the links, you'll see that Form 12 requires you (in section 78) to report details of disposals during the relevant tax year, and the gains arising on them, but does not require details of acquisitions. However Form 11 requires details of disposals (in section L) and details of acquisitions (in section M).

Assuming you start out in life as but a humble PAYE worker who doesn't have to file a return, that state of affairs will continue until the Revenue become aware that your fiscal life has become more diverse and interesting. If you have never come to their attention before, and then you start investing in cryptocurrencies and you make a gain, when you report a gain and pay tax on it is the first time this will happen. At that stage they will ask you to complete a tax return for the year in question, and you must. They could ask you to complete either Form 12 or Form 11, so you will need to keep records which will enable you to complete Form 11 if required. "I didn't bother to keep records" is not going to be an acceptable excuse for failing to submit a tax return, if required to. Once they have asked you to complete a tax return for the year, they are likely to require one for each future year as well.

What do you do if they ask you to complete a Form 11 you don't have the information you need to do so? You take yourself off to an accountant or tax adviser, would be my suggestion, and see if he can get the Revenue to accept that Form 12 is appropriate to your circumstances. But note that you'll probably be required to complete Form 11 for the following year, so lift your game, record-keeping-wise.


Nil. But there is a financial penalty for failing to submit a tax return when required, and this can be imposed even if the tax return would have shown that you had no unpaid tax liability.

What exactly are you basing all this on as it's not accurate imo. Form 11 is not used for (exclusive) PAYE workers so I have no idea why you think they would be asked to fill it. It's fairly clear on the revenue website that form 12 if for PAYE workers who want or need to make a return and form 11 for self employed. On top of that you don't even need to do a form 12 if you are only filing for CGT as you can use a CGT1 form instead.

boardie100

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. You and your wife each have an annual 1,270 euro small gains allowance but, unlike income tax, these are not transferrable between spouses. If the bitcoin you dispose of are yours, you only have your own allowance to set against any gain. If they are jointly-owned, then you and the other co-owner are entitled to half the disposal proceeds and half the gain, and each of you calculates and pays CGT on that basis. You will each have your own small gains allowance. This is the case whether or not you and the other co-owner are married.

ok but surely i could argue that we both own the coins.... crypto accounts only allow one buyer though.... i bought them and transferred them to 'our' wallet

GreeBo

boardie100 wrote: »

ok but surely i could argue that we both own the coins.... crypto accounts only allow one buyer though.... i bought them and transferred them to 'our' wallet

They are still yours for Tax purposes.
Unless you are saying you jointly purchased them, in which case you would likely both own them, but proving that might be complicated.

jobless wrote: »

you dont have to declare your holdings if you havent sold i would say

Be careful of your definition of "sold".

CGT is due on disposal, which is nothing to do with selling back for EUR.

boardie100

GreeBo wrote: »

They are still yours for Tax purposes.
Unless you are saying you jointly purchased them, in which case you would likely both own them, but proving that might be complicated.

you cant jointly purchase them is my point... you can only have one person on the exchange....
Im the sole earner, money came from our savings.... they are 'ours' as far as im concerned...

GreeBo

boardie100 wrote: »

you cant jointly purchase them is my point... you can only have one person on the exchange....
Im the sole earner, money came from our savings.... they are 'ours' as far as im concerned...

I don't think the exchange is relevant, its whose money was used to purchase them.

If you are the sole earner then they were purchased with your money and so are yours. Your wife/partner has no CGT allowance in this case.
You could however gift them to her (but you would still be liable for any gains realised at the time of the gift)

boardie100

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't think the exchange is relevant, its whose money was used to purchase them.

If you are the sole earner then they were purchased with your money and so are yours. Your wife/partner has no CGT allowance in this case.
You could however gift them to her (but you would still be liable for any gains realised at the time of the gift)

bs to that..... the allowance is stingy enough...

Heart Break Kid

rogercross wrote: »

Hmmm wouldn't be my first choice :-) Any other options? Is there any way of just cashing the coins out to physical cash not a bank account?

hows the Isle of Man work?

rogercross

rogercross wrote: »

Hmmm wouldn't be my first choice :-) Any other options? Is there any way of just cashing the coins out to physical cash not a bank account?

Coinbase allow withdrawal to PayPal but that's only in the US at the moment.

GreeBo

https://coinatmradar.com/country/225/bitcoin-atm-united-kingdom/

abechan

What does disposal really mean?
Say if I have 1 bitcoin on an exchange and sell it for 10,000 euro. I then have 10,000 exchange credits. I do nothing for 1 year and then decide to withdraw 10,000 euro to my bank account.
Is the disposal when you sell it or when you realize your gains?

boardie100

GreeBo wrote: »

https://coinatmradar.com/country/225/bitcoin-atm-united-kingdom/

id say a lot these require id to withdraw and are quite expensive....

abechan

Does the First In First Out rule apply to crypto.
The explicitly say it for shares but no guidance for crytpo.

barneystinson

abechan wrote: »

What does disposal really mean?
Say if I have 1 bitcoin on an exchange and sell it for 10,000 euro. I then have 10,000 exchange credits. I do nothing for 1 year and then decide to withdraw 10,000 euro to my bank account.
Is the disposal when you sell it or when you realize your gains?

Asked and answered, repeatedly, already.

GreeBo

abechan wrote: »

What does disposal really mean?
Say if I have 1 bitcoin on an exchange and sell it for 10,000 euro. I then have 10,000 exchange credits. I do nothing for 1 year and then decide to withdraw 10,000 euro to my bank account.
Is the disposal when you sell it or when you realize your gains?

Selling your BTC is disposing of them and realizing your gains.

You realise gains (or losses) when you sell an asset for another one, not just for EUR and certainly not just when you transfer to your bank.

GreeBo

boardie100 wrote: »

id say a lot these require id to withdraw and are quite expensive....

Some require registration, but its just things like a phone number for SMS MFA.

There are limits on some (£500) per transaction and fees can vary from 2-5%
Anything under 30% is cheaper though (excluding the flight over obviously!)

Then again, Im not sure I would want to be walking about with 60K in my pocket.

abechan

GreeBo wrote: »

Selling your BTC is disposing of them and realizing your gains.

You realise gains (or losses) when you sell an asset for another one, not just for EUR and certainly not just when you transfer to your bank.

From your definition everyone who made gains on Mt.Gox and then lost it all when it collapses are liable to pay tax? Since then there has been a handful of other exchanges that got hacked or ran off with peoples money.

Crypto is still in the wild wild west. Exchanges are not regulated like stock exchanges. You can not group them together. Revenue does not have explicit guidelines for crypto.

Peregrinus

abechan wrote: »

From your definition everyone who made gains on Mt.Gox and then lost it all when it collapses are liable to pay tax? Since then there has been a handful of other exchanges that got hacked or ran off with peoples money.

Crypto is still in the wild wild west. Exchanges are not regulated like stock exchanges. You can not group them together. Revenue does not have explicit guidelines for crypto.

Which makes the point; if there are no rules or revenue practice statements indicating that crypto will be treated differently from other assets, this means it will be treated the same as other assets.

GreeBo

abechan wrote: »

From your definition everyone who made gains on Mt.Gox and then lost it all when it collapses are liable to pay tax? Since then there has been a handful of other exchanges that got hacked or ran off with peoples money.

Crypto is still in the wild wild west. Exchanges are not regulated like stock exchanges. You can not group them together. Revenue does not have explicit guidelines for crypto.

It's not "my" definition, it's the revenue's!

Yes, if you made a profit from Mtgox trades you owe CGT, the fact they were stolen is irrelevant, do you get paye back if someone steals your wallet?

Regulation of exchanges or crypto being mainstream has no bearing on your tax liability. What has grouping exchanges got to do with anything? Tax is due on disposal of assets, irrespective of where or how.

You pay DIRT from all your bank accounts, not just special ones.

ZeroThreat

abechan wrote: »

From your definition everyone who made gains on Mt.Gox and then lost it all when it collapses are liable to pay tax? Since then there has been a handful of other exchanges that got hacked or ran off with peoples money.

Crypto is still in the wild wild west. Exchanges are not regulated like stock exchanges. You can not group them together. Revenue does not have explicit guidelines for crypto.

hope you personally didn't lose much on Mt. Gox, otherwise time to re-mortgage the house or apply for a big loan to pay off the tax due, plus several years of interest & penalties.

Peregrinus

From memory, if an asset is stolen, that's treated as a disposal for nil proceeds (or, if the asset is insured against theft, a disposal for the insured amount). So if somebody steals your crypto, that will generate a capital loss which can be set off against other gains in the same year (if you have any other gains, of course) or carried forward to future years.

But legal tender and deposits of legal tender are not "assets", so if somebody steals your cash, either physically from the shoebox you keep it in under the bed, or through fraudulently accessing your account at some bank, broker, exchange, whatever, that's not a disposal, and there's no capital loss.

Again, no special rules here for your entitlement to cash from a crypto exchange.

Cute Hoor

abechan wrote: »

Crypto is still in the wild wild west. Exchanges are not regulated like stock exchanges. You can not group them together. Revenue does not have explicit guidelines for crypto.

Might be best to ring Revenue and argue/didcuss that with them, I'm sure they will be amenable.!!

abechan

GreeBo wrote: »

It's not "my" definition, it's the revenue's!

Yes, if you made a profit from Mtgox trades you owe CGT, the fact they were stolen is irrelevant, do you get paye back if someone steals your wallet?

Regulation of exchanges or crypto being mainstream has no bearing on your tax liability. What has grouping exchanges got to do with anything? Tax is due on disposal of assets, irrespective of where or how.

You pay DIRT from all your bank accounts, not just special ones.

A better analogy would be at your job. Your employer does not pay you at the end of the month but you are still expected to pay paye on what they said they would pay you.

Selling your crypto starts when you send your coins to an exchange and finishes when you receive euro back. All you do is set your price on the exchange.
Ownership of crypto is having access to private keys so you can argue that once you send it to an exchange you don't own it anymore.

If you were selling a car for 1 bitcoin. I send you the bitcoin and you hand over the car keys. No problems there. What if we argree on using a mutual friend to facilitate the deal. I send him the bitcoin and you give him the car key. He disappears. No exchange happens.

Peregrinus

abechan wrote: »

A better analogy would be at your job. Your employer does not pay you at the end of the month but you are still expected to pay paye on what they said they would pay you.

Selling your crypto starts when you send your coins to an exchange and finishes when you receive euro back. All you do is set your price on the exchange.
Ownership of crypto is having access to private keys so you can argue that once you send it to an exchange you don't own it anymore.

If you were selling a car for 1 bitcoin. I send you the bitcoin and you hand over the car keys. No problems there. What if we argree on using a mutual friend to facilitate the deal. I send him the bitcoin and you give him the car key. He disappears. No exchange happens.

Disposal of your crypto happens when you no longer own your crypto. The disposal proceeds are the value of whatever you now own instead of your crypto. That could be the value of a holding of a different crypto, if you have traded one crypto for another, or it could be the right to receive an amount of fiat currency, if you have disposed of crypto but not acquired other crypto.

If you sell your crypto for fiat, but then choose to leave the fiat in your account with the broker/exchange/whatever, that doesn't alter the fact that you have disposed of your crypto. If there's a CGT liability associated with that disposal your choice to leave the proceeeds in your account rather than uplift them does not defer the CGT liablity. The subsequent theft of your sale proceeds would be a separate event as far as the Revenue are concerned and, sadly, I think it would not be a disposal for CGT purposes.

I think the position would be different if the fiat currency were never credited to your account, so you never had an opportunity to draw it down, or use to to acquire different crypto. In that situation you could reasonably argue that you were simply defrauded of your crypto, and you should be treated as having disposed of it for nil proceeds, and I think the Revenue would be sympathetic to that argument (though we won't know for sure until somebody runs it).

The lesson, obviously, is don't leave your disposal proceeds sitting in your account in an unregulated exchange; you're choosing to run a risk there that you have no need to run, and for which you are not getting any compensating advantage or return. But that would be the advice even if tax considerations didn't enter into it at all, wouldn't it?

frobisher

YossiA wrote: »

Hi there,

If you buy and then sell Bitcoins and make a profit, are you eligible to capital gains tax?

This is possibly answered elsewhere, but my accountant has told me that crypto trading profits can be subject to CGT or income tax, depending on the situation.

As in many things legal and financial, it's usually only advise when you've paid a professional to give it to you. Everything else is just opinion. Talk to an accountant...

GreeBo

abechan wrote: »

A better analogy would be at your job. Your employer does not pay you at the end of the month but you are still expected to pay paye on what they said they would pay you.

Selling your crypto starts when you send your coins to an exchange and finishes when you receive euro back. All you do is set your price on the exchange.
Ownership of crypto is having access to private keys so you can argue that once you send it to an exchange you don't own it anymore.

If you were selling a car for 1 bitcoin. I send you the bitcoin and you hand over the car keys. No problems there. What if we argree on using a mutual friend to facilitate the deal. I send him the bitcoin and you give him the car key. He disappears. No exchange happens.

The every point you are trying to make here is wrong and has proven to be so.

Is ownership of EUR having it in your hand so once you send it to your bank you don't own it anymore?

abechan

GreeBo wrote: »

abechan wrote: »

A better analogy would be at your job. Your employer does not pay you at the end of the month but you are still expected to pay paye on what they said they would pay you.

Selling your crypto starts when you send your coins to an exchange and finishes when you receive euro back. All you do is set your price on the exchange.
Ownership of crypto is having access to private keys so you can argue that once you send it to an exchange you don't own it anymore.

If you were selling a car for 1 bitcoin. I send you the bitcoin and you hand over the car keys. No problems there. What if we argree on using a mutual friend to facilitate the deal. I send him the bitcoin and you give him the car key. He disappears. No exchange happens.

The every point you are trying to make here is wrong and has proven to be so.

Is ownership of EUR having it in your hand so once you send it to your bank you don't own it anymore?

When you send your money to your bank you don't own it. The bank issues you an IOU. What happened in Cyprus with the bail-in shows anything in your bank is not yours. Ironically this is the reason bitcoin was created.
My point is that banks, stock exchanges and brokers are regulated financial institutions. Mt.Gox and most other crypto exchanges are not. 100 EUR sitting in an exchange is not worth the same as 100 EUR in your bank.

GreeBo

abechan wrote: »

When you send your money to your bank you don't own it. The bank issues you an IOU. What happened in Cyprus with the bail-in shows anything in your bank is not yours. Ironically this is the reason bitcoin was created.
My point is that banks, stock exchanges and brokers are regulated financial institutions. Mt.Gox and most other crypto exchanges are not. 100 EUR sitting in an exchange is not worth the same as 100 EUR in your bank.

I still dont see why you think the regulation or lack thereof of an exchange makes any difference to your CGT liability?

Would you pay CGT on any holdings you held on a regulated exchange?

abechan

GreeBo wrote: »

abechan wrote: »

When you send your money to your bank you don't own it. The bank issues you an IOU. What happened in Cyprus with the bail-in shows anything in your bank is not yours. Ironically this is the reason bitcoin was created.
My point is that banks, stock exchanges and brokers are regulated financial institutions. Mt.Gox and most other crypto exchanges are not. 100 EUR sitting in an exchange is not worth the same as 100 EUR in your bank.

I still dont see why you think the regulation or lack thereof of an exchange makes any difference to your CGT liability?

Would you pay CGT on any holdings you held on a regulated exchange?

Regulation constitutes the sale of an asset. Without it you can argue its not sold until you withdraw money to your bank.

GreeBo

abechan wrote: »

Regulation constitutes the sale of an asset.

Do you have a link for that?