Tax on Bitcoin Profits

CIARAN_BOYLE

JustShay wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about off shore accounts. They use their normal every day bank accounts here in this country.

You do know that banks often report suspicious transactions likely to give rise to a tax liability to revenue.

An Ri rua

JustShay wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about off shore accounts. They use their normal every day bank accounts here in this country.

You're missing the wood for the trees there....

AndrewJRenko

An Ri rua wrote: »

You're missing the wood for the trees there....

I get the feeling there is a lot of wood there...

h0neybadger

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am opposed to bitcoin on religious grounds. It says in Revelations that nobody will buy or sell unless he receives the mark of the beast and there are reasons to assume bitcoin or some similar cryptocurrency is not something God would approve of. For one thing, the bible instructs us not to hoard gold and of course gold and bitcoin derive value based on the fact that they cannot be printed to oblivion like paper money. Also, it is said that the gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents, i.e. the number of the beast, so the practice of hoarding gold and scarcity economics is out of kilter with Christianity.

This is further illustrated in the parable of the servants and the talents. The wicket and slothful servant buried his talent while the good servants put the money to work in order to make a profit for their master. Morally, money should therefore be worked and not hoarded.

That said, practices such as quantitative easing which involves creating billions in new money creates a fear that inflation will increase sharply at some point in the future and the recent rise in bitcoin may be an indicator that this fear is real and becoming more widespread. Where inflation is deliberately engineered in order to deflate debt, that is theft which like hoarding, is a sin.

Honesty and hard work should be the basis for the integrity of money.

Well if it’s sinful to want to improve your life for you and your family by investing your money into something that you chose to do so, then sign me up for a one way ticket to Hell (if it exists).

McCrack

knipex wrote: »

According to official sources


Guns, Drugs, Weapons in general, hit men, smugglers, traffickers, etc etc (assuming you have access to the "Dark Web")

Yes and anything/everything else

If the seller accepts payment in btc then it can be used to buy anything the parties wish

Same as fiat money

wassie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But what can you buy with bitcoin anyway?

Anything provided the vendor will accept it.
Real estate could be a good bet if you got into bitcoin early enough!
http://bitcoin-realestate.com/property-status/for-sale/

realitykeeper wrote: »

That said, practices such as quantitative easing which involves creating billions in new money creates a fear that inflation will increase sharply at some point in the future and the recent rise in bitcoin may be an indicator that this fear is real and becoming more widespread. Where inflation is deliberately engineered in order to deflate debt, that is theft which like hoarding, is a sin.

Thats a certainly different take on QE. If you subscribe to that view then theres going to be a lot of central bankers spending eternity with ol' Lucifer.

thegolfer

A funny thing about reading all the responses and suggested fanciful intentions of tax evasion here is that say there is a Revenue official reading these posts, and noting the details of each and every contributor to this forum.

Revenue could then approach boards.ie with a view to obtaining all the contact details of each and every contributor and make direct contact.

Revenue would be within their rights to obtain the e-mails, private chats etc of contributors.

From other forums on this site, it may not be that difficult to establish the accumulated assets, acquisitions, and possible disposals for each person, and then have a sitdown chat with each, or issued a letter.

However, it is also understandable that some may have intentions of defaulting on their tax obligations and yet to do so, thus no crime yet to happen.

Early investors, who cash out now, may be in line for large paydays, and obvious CGT\IT liabilities, assuming they were tax resident here.

CIARAN_BOYLE

thegolfer wrote: »

A funny thing about reading all the responses and suggested fanciful intentions of tax evasion here is that say there is a Revenue official reading these posts, and noting the details of each and every contributor to this forum.

Revenue could then approach boards.ie with a view to obtaining all the contact details of each and every contributor and make direct contact.

Revenue would be within their rights to obtain the e-mails, private chats etc of contributors.

From other forums on this site, it may not be that difficult to establish the accumulated assets, acquisitions, and possible disposals for each person, and then have a sitdown chat with each, or issued a letter.

However, it is also understandable that some may have intentions of defaulting on their tax obligations and yet to do so, thus no crime yet to happen.

Early investors, who cash out now, may be in line for large paydays, and obvious CGT\IT liabilities, assuming they were tax resident here.

There is one. I have no idea if noting such details is part of his job.

I believe he is simply a posting member of the forum trying to help people out.

thegolfer

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

There is one. I have no idea if noting such details is part of his job.

I believe he is simply a posting member of the forum trying to help people out.

Had a new client contacted by Revenue once due to Facebook advertising as a hairdresser. Had to backdate to the prior year for IT purposes.

Wouldn't be surprised if this happened here, the old stock customs and excise guys are being phased out, being replaced with more probing staff, guided by data analytics.

barneystinson

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

There is one. I have no idea if noting such details is part of his job.

I believe he is simply a posting member of the forum trying to help people out.

I'd reckon there's more than that.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am opposed to bitcoin on religious grounds. It says in Revelations that nobody will buy or sell unless he receives the mark of the beast and there are reasons to assume bitcoin or some similar cryptocurrency is not something God would approve of. For one thing, the bible instructs us not to hoard gold and of course gold and bitcoin derive value based on the fact that they cannot be printed to oblivion like paper money. Also, it is said that the gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents, i.e. the number of the beast, so the practice of hoarding gold and scarcity economics is out of kilter with Christianity.

This is further illustrated in the parable of the servants and the talents. The wicket and slothful servant buried his talent while the good servants put the money to work in order to make a profit for their master. Morally, money should therefore be worked and not hoarded.

That said, practices such as quantitative easing which involves creating billions in new money creates a fear that inflation will increase sharply at some point in the future and the recent rise in bitcoin may be an indicator that this fear is real and becoming more widespread. Where inflation is deliberately engineered in order to deflate debt, that is theft which like hoarding, is a sin.

Honesty and hard work should be the basis for the integrity of money.

What a crock of shít.

CIARAN_BOYLE

thegolfer wrote: »

Had a new client contacted by Revenue once due to Facebook advertising as a hairdresser. Had to backdate to the prior year for IT purposes.

Wouldn't be surprised if this happened here, the old stock customs and excise guys are being phased out, being replaced with more probing staff, guided by data analytics.

Revenue are very good with social media these days.

barneystinson wrote: »

I'd reckon there's more than that.

Well there's one person posting I know works in Revenue.

realitykeeper

wassie wrote: »

Thats a certainly different take on QE. If you subscribe to that view then theres going to be a lot of central bankers spending eternity with ol' Lucifer.

QE is ultimately a highly inflationary. The recent sharp rise in the value of bitcoin would suggest a lot of people are worried that inflation is about to rise sharply.

Peregrinus

Or it could be a classic bubble.

Blacktie.

realitykeeper wrote: »

The recent sharp rise in the value of bitcoin might be because a lot of people who are worried that inflation is about to rise sharply.

You have far more faith in the intelligence of people than I do. People see it going up and are jumping on board.

realitykeeper

Blacktie. wrote: »

You have far more faith in the intelligence of people than I do. People see it going up and are jumping on board.

When an asset class makes a big move it is usually because the money managers are getting in on the act. I think the fat cats are realizing that the QE bubble is about to pop, so they are now making bitcoin a mainstream financial product.

The little people tend to follow along after the professionals have set the trend. I still urge caution though, because bitcoin is based on scarcity and money should not be based on scarcity but on work and effort.

ZeroThreat

thegolfer wrote: »

A funny thing about reading all the responses and suggested fanciful intentions of tax evasion here is that say there is a Revenue official reading these posts, and noting the details of each and every contributor to this forum.

Revenue could then approach boards.ie with a view to obtaining all the contact details of each and every contributor and make direct contact.

Revenue would be within their rights to obtain the e-mails, private chats etc of contributors.

From other forums on this site, it may not be that difficult to establish the accumulated assets, acquisitions, and possible disposals for each person, and then have a sitdown chat with each, or issued a letter.

However, it is also understandable that some may have intentions of defaulting on their tax obligations and yet to do so, thus no crime yet to happen.

Early investors, who cash out now, may be in line for large paydays, and obvious CGT\IT liabilities, assuming they were tax resident here.

I'd imagine many on this forum are talking through their a**e with regard to plans of moving abroad to escape their tax liabilities to the government.

However, if they haven't realised any 'real money' gains and are currently just holding crypto, there's nothing really that can legally be done to prevent them leaving if they wish to acquire ordinary residence somewhere else before cashing out.

Me personally? I have no problem paying my 33% whenever I cash out any crypto, so I can't see what surveillance or sanctions they can put on me for daring to hold some digital 'coins'.

When exactly I do choose to cash out and realise a gain is my own decision, and not the business of some paid peeping tom (with a salary paid for by the taxpayer, which includes me).

The only way things can change in regard to the above is if the government here decide to outlaw Irish citizens holding crypto (which wouldn't surprise me given the strengh of certain establishment lobby groups, check out the view on bitcoin of significant influential financial figures in the Irish media such as Brendan Burgess for example).

realitykeeper

Another observation I would make regarding bitcoin and other crypto-currencies: the fact that each coin can be subdivided may ultimately mean that there is no difference between a crypto-currency and a fiat currency like the US dollar. After all, if the dollar were to become much more valuable against all the other currencies on earth, then for the practicalities of trade, you could make sub divisions e.g. 0.001 cent, 0.00001 cent etc. How is that new money creation any different to quantitative easing? If bitcoin does become highly valued, everyone may need to brush up on standard form mathematics, i.e. 1 x 10 to the power of minus ... because there is a word for 1000,000 but there is not a word for 0.0000001

CIARAN_BOYLE

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I'd imagine many on this forum are talking through their a**e with regard to plans of moving abroad to escape their tax liabilities to the government.

However, if they haven't realised any 'real money' gains and are currently just holding crypto, there's nothing really that can legally be done to prevent them leaving if they wish to acquire ordinary residence somewhere else before cashing out.

As explained various times crypto to crypto transactions are be triggering events for cgt.

Peregrinus

realitykeeper wrote: »

Another observation I would make regarding bitcoin and other crypto-currencies: that fact that each coin can be subdivided may ultimately mean that there is no difference between a crypto-currency and a fiat currency like the US dollar. After all, if the dollar were to become much more valuable against all the other currencies on earth, then for the practicalities of trade, you could make make sub divisions e.g. 0.001 cent, 0.00001 cent etc. How is that new money creation any different to quantitative easing?

It's completely different. Subdividing a bitcoin into decimal-fractions-of-bitcoin doesn't the quantity of bitcoin that you hold any more than exchanging a 10-euro note for ten 1-euro coins would increase the quantity of euro that you hold. Whereas issuing new fiat currency does in fact increase the aggregate volume of fiat currency in existence.

Shauny2010

Quick question on CGT,
When does on become liable, is it straight away or can it wait till I do Tax returns for that year which could be 18 months after the sell date?

ZeroThreat

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As explained various times crypto to crypto transactions are be triggering events for cgt.

I was thinking more of holding long term, wasn't really thinking in terms trading between coins.

Although you have touched on a slight problem, if someone bought, say bitcoin or ethereum on gdax, and then waited, lets say 1 hour for them to arrive on bittrex to buy alts just to hold - during which time the price has changed slightly, given the volatile nature of cryptos, seems a bit extreme to have to pay tax on some fluctuations within the space of minutes.

I could understand taxing crypto to crypto transactions for people trading back & forth.

Cute Hoor

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I was thinking more of holding long term, wasn't really thinking in terms trading between coins.

Although you have touched on a slight problem, if someone bought, say bitcoin or ethereum on gdax, and then waited, lets say 1 hour for them to arrive on bittrex to buy alts just to hold - during which time the price has changed slightly, given the volatile nature of cryptos, seems a bit extreme to have to pay tax on some fluctuations within the space of minutes.

I could understand taxing crypto to crypto transactions for people trading back & forth.

If you bought 10k worth of TEUM at 9:30 yesterday and sold at 9:52 for 12,872 you would be liable for CGT on the 2,872 profit that you made in that 22 minutes, if it had taken 22 years to make the same profit you would still be liable for the same CGT

Cute Hoor

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Quick question on CGT,
When does on become liable, is it straight away or can it wait till I do Tax returns for that year which could be 18 months after the sell date?

For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year. For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year

CIARAN_BOYLE

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Quick question on CGT,
When does on become liable, is it straight away or can it wait till I do Tax returns for that year which could be 18 months after the sell date?

For cgt payment date and return date is different.

You must pay by 15 December any cgt due on transactions made between January and November.

You must pay by 31 January any cgt due on transactions made in the previous December.

You file your return with your income tax return for the year.

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I could understand taxing crypto to crypto transactions for people trading back & forth.

A lot of people in this thread are arguing (ie deciding to be stupid) that revenue can't tax transactions between crypto currencies and that tax is only due when they cash out to fiat (at which point they will have changed their residence and **** ordinary residence because that's bull**** and unenforcable).

SO we have to be hard correcting these thoughts.

ZeroThreat

Cute Hoor wrote: »

If you bought 10k worth of TEUM at 9:30 yesterday and sold at 9:52 for 12,872 you would be liable for CGT on the 2,872 profit that you made in that 22 minutes, if it had taken 22 years to make the same profit you would still be liable for the same CGT

Given the differences between prices on exchanges, coupled with the difficulty in finding an exact historical price to the minute going back years (especially for the early adopters here who have been in crypto for years), I just see ridiculous complications some people are going to have just filing a return, even if the gain was smaller than their annual allowance. :eek:

wassie

I'm guessing it wont be complicated for Revenue. I've found they will readily come up with a number if you have having difficulty in obtaining one for the purposes of taxation.

Cute Hoor

Cute Hoor wrote: »

For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year. For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year

Is a return required if any gains are below the tax free threashold?

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

You file your return with your income tax return for the year.

The majority of PAYE workers don't make tax returns though so add to that the extra complication of different return periods with CGT it's easy to see how there is confusion, especially the 15th Dec deadline which most people have never heard of and could miss it without ever knowing.

ZeroThreat

Kallie Jealous Throwback wrote: »

Is a return required if any gains are below the tax free threashold?



The majority of PAYE workers don't make tax returns though so add to that the extra complication of different return periods with CGT it's easy to see how there is confusion, especially the 15th Dec deadline which most people have never heard of and could miss it without ever knowing.

Sometimes it seems to me that Ireland seems to be designed around a concept to create enough redtape, regulations, arcane rules and complications to keep the Legal & Accounting/Banking professions in their multi-million leafy victorian mansions & prestige cars

teticuk

Would it be considered acceptable to just pay the 33% on disposal to Euro?