Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Roger Hassenforder

So this is back in the public.
The latest report seems to have ixnayed the merger (Huzzah says the Corpo), but recommneds a significant expansion (boo says the Council).
Just as the city was against the Smiddy report, I cant see there being an appetite for this one in Co. Hall.

can we expect some compromise? City getting Douglas Grange, maybe as far as Ballincollig and Blarney. Bye bye green belt, but I cant see the Council handing over Little Island too easily.

(the last thread was closed due to slights on people- keep it civil)

BlinkingLights

I can see a situation where there's simply no change at all unless there's something pushed to extend the city boundaries.

It's all about money and control of budgets.

The original full merger was absolutely crazy though when you consider the size and rural nature or the county.

Reputable Rog

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So this is back in the public.
The latest report seems to have ixnayed the merger (Huzzah says the Corpo), but recommneds a significant expansion (boo says the Council).
Just as the city was against the Smiddy report, I cant see there being an appetite for this one in Co. Hall.

can we expect some compromise? City getting Douglas Grange, maybe as far as Ballincollig and Blarney. Bye bye green belt, but I cant see the Council handing over Little Island too easily.

(the last thread was closed due to slights on people- keep it civil)

The CoCo offered Douglas and the North Environs, they are unlikely to offer anymore.
There will be an effective merger but with 2 separate bodies under one umbrella.

CHealy

About time some common sense came out of this, hopefully it goes through and Cork can continue to grow as an effective counter balance to Dublin.

Roger Hassenforder

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The CoCo offered Douglas and the North Environs, they are unlikely to offer anymore.
There will be an effective merger but with 2 separate bodies under one umbrella.

Can't see a merger now, but will probably see Douglas, (the parts in the county of) Grange, Blackpool, Bishopstown/Wilton areas being given over to the City, maybe even Monard.

DylanGLC

City boundary to almost double. Exact area not defined yet but it will add Douglas, Rochestown, Moneygourney before Carrigaline, the airport, Little Island, Ballingcollig and Blarney. May also include Fota? The county will retain Carrigaline, Passage West, Ringaskiddy and Monkstown, and the city council will need to compensate the county council financially (which is only fair). Supposedly Simon wants the boundary change to be implemented by this time next year and the rest of the stuff (change to mayor and so on) in 2019. Will increase the cities population from 125,000 to 225,000, and the county will lower to around 320,000. Overall, seems very positive and the best outcome for both councils Over a merger (which was a ridiculous idea)

Roger Hassenforder

DylanGLC wrote: »

City boundary to almost double. Exact area not defined yet but it will add Douglas, Rochestown, Moneygourney before Carrigaline, the airport, Little Island, Ballingcollig and Blarney. May also include Fota? The county will retain Carrigaline, Passage West, Ringaskiddy and Monkstown, and the city council will need to compensate the county council financially (which is only fair). Supposedly Simon wants the boundary change to be implemented by this time next year and the rest of the stuff (change to mayor and so on) in 2019. Will increase the cities population from 125,000 to 225,000, and the county will lower to around 320,000. Overall, seems very positive and the best outcome for both councils Over a merger (which was a ridiculous idea)

worst outcome for the County!
they're not happy

KCAccidental

Some other interesting bits from the report. It recommends 5 year terms for a non-directly elected mayor. That should shake up the pact system in place in City Hall.

I assume the wards will have to be realigned or enlarged as there will be a few extra seats up for grabs, but with the higher population candidates would now need 1/3rd more votes to get elected than previously. Could be a bloodbath in the 2019 locals.

DylanGLC

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

worst outcome for the County!
they're not happy

I don't see how it is the worst outcome. It is still much bigger than the city council. Weren't they looking for a merger? It would've been odd having two council buildings then (both the County Hall and City Hall have strong history) - I couldn't see either wanting to give theirs up as the main 'headquarters'

Roger Hassenforder

DylanGLC wrote: »

I don't see how it is the worst outcome. It is still much bigger than the city council. Weren't they looking for a merger? It would've been odd having two council buildings then (both the County Hall and City Hall have strong history) - I couldn't see either wanting to give theirs up as the main 'headquarters'

AFAIR originally the county were willing to give the city some bit to expand into but city were asking for too much, so the talks broke down.
Then Alan Kelly got involved and said if they don't sort it out, he'll would and merge them as Tipperary, Limerick and Waterford were merged.
the resulting Smiddy report recommended the County "absorbing"
the City as a division to become a new superauthority. Worst result for city, and they are having none of it. Not the worst of possible outcomes for the county and they "welcomed" it which caused serious bad blood between the two.
Shelved a year or two, and now this new report, either to even the balance and assuage the city lads, but it's a serious kick in the nuts for the county. Their press release "doesn't accept" the report recommendations.

Reputable Rog

DylanGLC wrote: »

I don't see how it is the worst outcome. It is still much bigger than the city council. Weren't they looking for a merger? It would've been odd having two council buildings then (both the County Hall and City Hall have strong history) - I couldn't see either wanting to give theirs up as the main 'headquarters'

It's the worst outcome because they lose their largest town and 3 out of 4 Strategic employment areas and therefore most of the rates which go a long way toward servicing what is a large rural county without any large scale employment outside of Ringaskiddy.
Cork County will be reduced to a large version of Leitrim and there will be inevitable consequences for the areas outside of the new city.

Roger Hassenforder

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It's the worst outcome because they lose their largest town and 3 out of 4 Strategic employment areas and therefore most of the rates which go a long way toward servicing what is a large rural county without any large scale employment outside of Ringaskiddy.
Cork County will be reduced to a large version of Leitrim and there will be inevitable consequences for the areas outside of the new city.

good one!:D

BlinkingLights

Yeah roughly 10 Leitrims... That's not small by any standards

ongarboy

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-city-population-to-expand-by-100-000-under-new-scheme-1.3116566
Details on which areas will be included/excluded in enlarged city below.
Cork city would expand to include Douglas, Donnybrook, Grange, Frankfield, Rochestown, Ballincollig, Tower, Blarney, Rathpeacon, Glanmire, Little Island, Carrigtwohill and Cork Airport but would not incorporate Passage West, Monkstown, Carrigaline or Ringaskiddy.

namloc1980

County council moaning already. This will be totally diluted to appease the County.

pwurple

I must read that report later. At first glance, it seems to make no logical sense for places that are separated from the city by a green belt to be included. So I can see douglas, rochestown etc becoming city, yes yes, all reasonable.... but carrigtwohill in, and carrigline out? What's the logic there... City = East county? County = west cork?

Frostybrew

pwurple wrote: »

I must read that report later. At first glance, it seems to make no logical sense for places that are separated from the city by a green belt to be included. So I can see douglas, rochestown etc becoming city, yes yes, all reasonable.... but carrigtwohill in, and carrigline out? What's the logic there... City = East county? County = west cork?

Carrigtohill is separated from the rest of the cork urban area by a much smaller green belt, only a mile or so between Glounthaune and the edge of Carrigtohill. The green belt between Carrigaline and Cork is significant in comparison to other areas such as Glanmire or Ballincollig.

Eventually I can see the Cork metropolitan area consisting of two large urban areas, namely the city area and a harbour area consisting of Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Passage, Monkstown, Cobh, and the Crosshaven area. A third area may be centred on Midleton.

Patrick 1959

County councilers called it a land grab that's a bit rich considering that the city did not get a boundary extension in over 52 years imagine that happening in Dublin. Where do these county councilers think the 100000 plus people on the outskirts of cork city came from? . The vast majority of them came from inner city cork or up from the country to work in the city. The industrial estates on the outskirts of the city were built there because there was no room to build them inside the city.

BlinkingLights

It's petty, just get on with it! In the medium term it will be much better for both the City and County that there's a solid urban centre in Cork.

Patrick 1959

If one join metropolitan council was the best way for cork . Why has Dublin 4 councils .

BlinkingLights

They were proposing one council, which given the sheer physical size of County Cork would be like merging Dublin City with County Pale.

You'd have a city with a massive rural hinterland nearly half the size of Northern Ireland. It would have been a lousy deal for the city and for the county and produced an unworkable regional authority.

Soccarboy11

Its kind of ridiculous really how the County Council maintain Bishopstown, Wilton areas etc. They are a 5 minute drive from the city, and the new Sarsfield road roundabout is always getting overgrown with weeds etc. Just past Togher then by the Supervalue is the city and everything is much better kept.

The County Council should be maintaining the countryside and villages around Cork, not suburbs of a city. Driving the wild atlantic way last year, Cork definitely had the worst kept route of them all. All the viewing points were totally overgrown and the roads were crap, drive up the country and there is heaps of a difference! That is what the county council should be focusing on.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The merging of the councils was an incredibly stupid idea. In reality Cork County Council should be split between east and west of the city. It's simply too big. Google Maps says there is 318 kilometers between Youghal and Goleen and Charleville. It's an absurdly large administrative area as it is.

There is way too much of the city that is not considered part of the city, parts of Douglas, Mayfield, Bishopstown fall outside the city, it is a really silly situation. Then you have the Airport, Little Island, Ballincollig and other places outside the city, when in every other measurable way they are most certainly part of the city.

And the thing is, population size can be a reason why companies from abroad might come here. How can the city thrive and prosper when it is effectively being run by two separate councils, with different agendas and goals.

The boundary needs to be extended as soon as possible or it will be to the massive detriment to Cork as a whole.

rebs23

Can we please just get on with it now? Decision made, implement the decision. A new Cork City of 250,000, larger than the next 3 cities combined.

Reputable Rog

Can't see it happening to be honest. The county will fight it tooth and nail including high court if necessary.
The small print leaves the way open for a single executive and this will probably be the compromise.

Patrick 1959

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

If one join metropolitan council was the best way for cork . Why has Dublin 4 councils .

Because the national government don't want a strong Dublin government.

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Can't see it happening to be honest. The county will fight it tooth and nail including high court if necessary.
The small print leaves the way open for a single executive and this will probably be the compromise.

I'm not sure that it does? I think the report has very clear recommendations and the problem for the County is that the idea of a merger has been firmly rejected; the idea no longer (and never did) have any credibility.

What's interesting is that the County Council seem to be the only voice criticising the new report. The Chamber/IBEC/national politicians seem to accept it - and this will prove to be significant. And they are right.

Patrick 1959

Douglas village road network has been neglected for decades in my view because the county council know that any boundary extension would bring it into city hands.little island traffic problem is the same trying to exit industrial parks heartbreaking. Forge hill Matthew hill same .the road network on the edges of the city boundary are nightmares for commuters.the line drawn for any city boundary extension should not cut through any urban areas . Leaving Passage Monkstown outside the new city boundary is creating new bottlenecks for the future.

BlinkingLights

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Douglas village road network has been neglected for decades in my view because the county council know that any boundary extension would bring it into city hands.little island traffic problem is the same trying to exit industrial parks heartbreaking. Forge hill Matthew hill same .the road network on the edges of the city boundary are nightmares for commuters.the line drawn for any city boundary extension should not cut through any urban areas . Leaving Passage Monkstown outside the new city boundary is creating new bottlenecks for the future.

The huge omission is Carrigaline.

If they are going to keep that area as rural, they need to do something about ensuring a town that size has some kind of serious council representation or relaunch reformed town councils entirely.

Any infrastructural issues around the Cork Metro Area really need to be handled as a single project though. You can't have messing around with roads or other infrastructure like that.

namloc1980

BlinkingLights wrote: »

The huge omission is Carrigaline.

If they are going to keep that area as rural, they need to do something about ensuring a town that size has some kind of serious council representation or relaunch reformed town councils entirely.

Any infrastructural issues around the Cork Metro Area really need to be handled as a single project though. You can't have messing around with roads or other infrastructure like that.

I know someone working out in County Hall and they got an email from management saying the Council totally disagrees with the report, that this is just the opening round in negotiations and that the final outcome will be very different. Guaranteed this will be completely diluted to appease the County. It's the way things always go

BlinkingLights

The annoying thing about this is that the general public be they in Cork City or County Cork are getting the worst outcome by this not going ahead.

All the in-fighting is essentially to appease an administrative empire.

What benefits the general public is having accountable public services, close to them. That's what an expansion of the City actually does.

Merging the two gives you a big wishy-washy unaccountable mess.

Ireland's track record on local government is very poor. It's all very badly structured and you tend to have centralisation of poet that is supposed to be devolved under a principle of subsidiarity (actually rehired under the EU treaties but ignored as a concept entirely in Ireland).

Town councils - scrapped rather than reformed. An utterly bizarre move and not replicated anywhere else in Europe. Most towns have a council / town hall. Then people wonder why towns here don't function well.

City Councils : Mergers with large rural counties pushed, effectively removing the concept of cities entirely.

Functions of councils? Many of them have either gone to national bodies like Irish Water etc etc or have been privatised.

It's like the Government / political system in general not only doesn't understand the purpose of local government but has gone out of its way to remove as much of it as humanly possible rather than making it a useful layer of democratic governance.