Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Water John

The macro picture is more about, an alternative axis, as a balance to Dublin.
Cork - Limerick - Galway linked by a motorway, with a complete ring road in Cork is crucial.
Again, nobody is saying that Cork City should say the size it is. Why fight a non argument?
The single authority argument doesn't stand up, at all. If it had any merit, Dublin County as a separate area wouldn't exist.

Smiddy has agricultural connections and maybe that's where the IFA intervention came from. Don't know if it was discussed the the 3 Cork Regional Execs of IFA?

BTW if one LA for all of Cork is such a good idea, why do IFA, themselves administer it as three separate areas, unlike any other County?
IFA posturing, has no credibility.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Water John wrote: »

The macro picture is more about, an alternative axis, as a balance to Dublin.
Cork - Limerick - Galway linked by a motorway, with a complete ring road in Cork is crucial.
Again, nobody is saying that Cork City should say the size it is. Why fight a non argument?
The single authority argument doesn't stand up, at all. If it had any merit, Dublin County as a separate area wouldn't exist.

Smiddy has agricultural connections and maybe that's where the IFA intervention came from. Don't know if it was discussed the the 3 Cork Regional Execs of IFA?

BTW if one LA for all of Cork is such a good idea, why do IFA, themselves administer it as three separate areas, unlike any other County?
IFA posturing, has no credibility.

I'm sorry now Water John, but of course the single authority argument most certainly does stand up. Otherwise the County Council wouldn't be fighting to hold onto to pieces of the City on the north, south, east and west side of it.

If it didn't stand up, the County Council would have already handed it over to the City!

Water John

What you have written, simply makes no sense to me.
What has the location of the dividing line between city and county, which almost all are now looking at, got to do with, the very different concept of it all being governed as one LA area?

I don't care who was in favour of the one LA position, County or City, it's now a dead duck, and I agree with that.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Water John wrote: »

What you have written, simply makes no sense to me.
What has the location of the dividing line between city and county, which almost all are now looking at, got to do with, the very different concept of it all being governed as one LA area?

I don't care who was in favour of the one LA position, County or City, it's now a dead duck, and I agree with that.

If my previous longer post makes no sense to you that's not my problem.

Water John

At national and international level city and county have worked together in promoting the area since the 1970s. That has been a success. As Munster poster above puts it, it doesn't matter to an outside investor.
You're building a big case for a problem that doesn't exist.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Water John wrote: »

At national and international level city and county have worked together in promoting the area since the 1970s. That has been a success. As Munster poster above puts it, it doesn't matter to an outside investor.
You're building a big case for a problem that doesn't exist.

I know, and I'm sure nearly every poster here wants what is best for Cork and the people that live here at the end of the day. But there are so many fundamental differences between the needs of an urban city and rural areas.

The City needs to run the urban part of Cork, and everything that comes with it, that includes suburbs like Glanmire, Ballincollig (maybe Carrigaline), the airport, the port, green space for housing, industrial areas like Little Island.
The County basically has no business being in charge of any of these places. They are part of Cork City.

The County need to run the rural area of Cork with its farmers and towns and villages.

Water John

It's an interesting opinion. Your wording and phrasing indicate a view that the County should just be a hinterland to the glorious urban conurbation. Basically, a colony, that the city can draw from, any resource it may require.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Water John wrote: »

It's an interesting opinion. Your wording and phrasing indicate a view that the County should just be a hinterland to the glorious urban conurbation. Basically, a colony, that the city can draw from, any resource it may require.

Well, the county is absolutely enormous in fairness. Cork has 1,094 km of coastline so the fact that the County Council administer parts of Cork City is actually ludicrous at this stage.

My view is;
Castletownbear, Clonakilty, Mallow, Youghal, Fermoy are county towns in Cork County and should be looked after by Cork County Council.

Douglas, Glanmire, Mayfiled, Ballincollig, the Airport are areas in Cork City and should be looked after by Cork City Council.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The County need to run the rural area of Cork with its farmers and towns and villages.

I don't get this. County doesn't have to equal farmers. What exactly is the City Council going to do differently/better than the County have done managing areas like Carrigtwohill, Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Ballincollig.......?
There's some significant industries there that are not rural/farming related.
Why has the County, who were involved in the growth of these places, have no business running them?

I'm not saying that there aren't some logical decisions to be made with regards to places like Douglas. But if the argument is that the City needs to solely focus on the city, then those areas who are to be consumed, are justified in thinking that they may lose out when it comes to decisions made by those with a city focus.

I'm not an expert, That's why I put the question to one. The city suddenly jumping to ~300k, makes no difference. Apart from the ego of it, I don't see why it matters so much to people.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't get this. County doesn't have to equal farmers. What exactly is the City Council going to do differently/better than the County have done managing areas like Carrigtwohill, Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Ballincollig.......?
There's some significant industries there that are not rural/farming related.
Why has the County, who were involved in the growth of these places, have no business running them?

I'm not saying that there aren't some logical decisions to be made with regards to places like Douglas. But if the argument is that the City needs to solely focus on the city, then those areas who are to be consumed, are justified in thinking that they may lose out when it comes to decisions made by those with a city focus.

I'm not an expert, That's why I put the question to one. The city suddenly jumping to ~300k, makes no difference. Apart from the ego of it, I don't see why it matters so much to people.

I made the point that the City Council have additional expenses that come with being in an urban area. So they get the bad side of that, all the while losing out on many of the benefits that come with being in an urban area like higher rates from industry, as there is so much of it in the County Council area.

I mean, Cork Airport is there primarily because people from Cork City use it, yet it is not located in the district. I think that is quite unfair. Surely the people that use the airport should be the ones that get the most benefit from it.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Great idea, couldn't agree more. I'd go even further and devolve even more functions from Dublin: Education, Policing, Housing.
Have a proper local government structure.




The County might argue, they already have a strong Metro area, proving quite successful in attracting FDI (although if Trump has his way, wont matter what they do!), of which the City want a piece of the action. TBH, I don't think its a very significant driver in a decision to base here, what the LA structure is or who runs the place. Corporation tax, labour costs and employability, language and a stable (relatively(!) corruption free) regulatory environment are. (edit: beaten by Munstermagic!)

While we've seen it bear some fruits (e.g. Jack Lunch tunnel), one key objective of LUTS 1/2 & CASP was the redevelopment of the city centre and docklands. (And here we're still talking about it). Instead we got peripheral development of office based services, rather than enhancing the City as the high density economic powerhouse of the region as was planned , the periphery has become the economic engine. that is what the City want. They failed to provide it, someone else did, and now they want it. The County don't want to hand it over.

The merger was shot down for several reasons, as it was effectively giving Cork City to the County. MacKinnon is the opposite, effectively giving the County to the City, but leaving a residual area, someone mentioned like 20 Leitrims! 20 Westmeaths might be a better analogy. Performance indicators and benchmarking suggest one of those organizations is better at running their respective areas, while one has proven less than spectacular at running theirs.

I live in the City, but I'd sooner be absorbed into the County, than see the City get their hands on the MacKinnon area.


*Sure isn't this how Ireland is ran, Dublin subsidizing the rest of the Country, the healthy subsidising the ill in our health service, the good drivers subsidizing the crap drivers etc.

So your analysis would suggest that Cork City contributes a very little in economic terms to the overall economy of the region. That is utter nonsense. Factually incorrect.

The census results published last week indicate that Cork City and suburbs accommodate approximately 100,000 jobs. This city centre is the largest concentration of employment outside the Greater Dublin Area. The city accommodates a very large number of office based employers, i[n the city centre, the emerging Docklands District, Blackpool, Model farm road, Mahon, And the north west of the city accommodates apple computers - 6000 people employed. The city also has very large levels of employment in education and health public administration as well as retail culture entertainment and hospitality. Your portrayal of Cork City as some kind of a wasteland in economic terms is bizarre. But I know why you’d like to present it in this way. Alf smiddy has been trying this in his town hall meetings.

There is also a significant amount of employment located outside the city, In little island, Ringaskiddy and the Airport business park as well as a number of key locations Near the satellite towns, Especially Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. However to suggest that the city or even the city centre is insignificant is so far wide of the mark to be laughable.

The reason the merger was rejected was that it was a ludicrous idea. No other European City is governed as a powerless municipal district subservient to a large rural authority.

Water John

All analysis of poverty in Ireland show, the greatest number of deprived people live in rural areas.
Cork Airport would be east of Carrigtowhill or possibly Midelton, the preferred locations, but Jack Lynch put it where it is.
So Shannon Airport should be part of Limerick City, by your logic?

BTW I actually agree that the City boundary should include the Airport.

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I made the point that the City Council have additional expenses that come with being in an urban area. So they get the bad side of that, all the while losing out on many of the benefits that come with being in an urban area like higher rates from industry, as there is so much of it in the County Council area.

I mean, Cork Airport is there primarily because people from Cork City use it, yet it is not located in the district. I think that is quite unfair. Surely the people that use the airport should be the ones that get the most benefit from it.

as a pro MacKinnon above pointed out 81% of Balincolligers work in the city. So the city enjoys the benifets of the rates arising from their employers, and those providing ancillary services (Eg parking, food service etc. without the expenses of providing domestic services to them.
LUTS/CASP was agreed between two authorities to develop the region, County agreed with them that the City should be the economic engine, via high density services in the city and development of the dock lands. Other than Mahon, City have done fcuk all.


2.2 million punters used Cork Airport.
I can't see how your point has relevance in this regard. In fairness, you've had better points!

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

So your analysis would suggest that Cork City contributes a very little in economic terms to the overall economy of the region. That is utter nonsense. Factually incorrect.

The census results published last week indicate that Cork City and suburbs accommodate approximately 100,000 jobs. This city centre is the largest concentration of employment outside the Greater Dublin Area. The city accommodates a very large number of office based employers, i[n the city centre, the emerging Docklands District, Blackpool, Model farm road, Mahon, And the north west of the city accommodates apple computers - 6000 people employed. The city also has very large levels of employment in education and health public administration as well as retail culture entertainment and hospitality. Your portrayal of Cork City as some kind of a wasteland in economic terms is bizarre. But I know why you’d like to present it in this way. Alf smiddy has been trying this in his town hall meetings.

There is also a significant amount of employment located outside the city, In little island, Ringaskiddy and the Airport business park as well as a number of key locations Near the satellite towns, Especially Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. However to suggest that the city or even the city centre is insignificant is so far wide of the mark to be laughable.

The reason the merger was rejected was that it was a ludicrous idea. No other European City is governed as a powerless municipal district subservient to a large rural authority.

'The emerging Docklands District', the best laugh I've had all weekend.
Blackpool never reached its potential and Mahon was a mistake which may be replicated in Wilton.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

So your analysis would suggest that Cork City contributes a very little in economic terms to the overall economy of the region. That is utter nonsense. Factually incorrect.

The census results published last week indicate that Cork City and suburbs accommodate approximately 100,000 jobs. This city centre is the largest concentration of employment outside the Greater Dublin Area. The city accommodates a very large number of office based employers, i[n the city centre, the emerging Docklands District, Blackpool, Model farm road, Mahon, And the north west of the city accommodates apple computers - 6000 people employed. The city also has very large levels of employment in education and health public administration as well as retail culture entertainment and hospitality. Your portrayal of Cork City as some kind of a wasteland in economic terms is bizarre. But I know why you’d like to present it in this way. Alf smiddy has been trying this in his town hall meetings.

There is also a significant amount of employment located outside the city, In little island, Ringaskiddy and the Airport business park as well as a number of key locations Near the satellite towns, Especially Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. However to suggest that the city or even the city centre is insignificant is so far wide of the mark to be laughable.

The reason the merger was rejected was that it was a ludicrous idea. No other European City is governed as a powerless municipal district subservient to a large rural authority

I got to your first straw man, didn't bother with the rest. More of the same

Roger Hassenforder

Reputable Rog wrote: »

'The emerging Docklands District', the best laugh I've had all weekend.
Blackpool never reached its potential and Mahon was a mistake which may be replicated in Wilton.

Comedy gold!

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I made the point that the City Council have additional expenses that come with being in an urban area. So they get the bad side of that, all the while losing out on many of the benefits that come with being in an urban area like higher rates from industry, as there is so much of it in the County Council area.

I mean, Cork Airport is there primarily because people from Cork City use it, yet it is not located in the district. I think that is quite unfair. Surely the people that use the airport should be the ones that get the most benefit from it.

Well the County isn't short of expenses either. Like the city, it too has places that requires investment that come from being in an rural area.

There's the benefit of the rates from the industrial areas, that they have successfully managed. I don't get why that's a problem for the city. What have the City done to counter that, as opposed to just wanting those successfully developed areas? The dock lands being a prime example.

The airport coming under City control may make sense, and I won't be against it. If it didn't have a business park for rates, I'm not so sure they'd care. What are the City's plan if they do get the airport?

As I said previously, this is a power/rates issues. So I'm not surprised to see the blame game they are both playing.

As you said, we just want to see the best for the entire region. If it's just City or County focused, that's unlikely to happen.

DylanGLC

Off topic but I think a lot of people here think the Docklands should currently be a thriving, high density, high populated area, and anything less is a failure or not good enough. Look at the Docklands as they currently stand. Assuming Lapp's Quay is the start of the Docklands, there are two big office developments, a successful hotel and a boardwalk. Across the water, there is One Albert Quay with 1,500 employees (fully let before completion) and Ireland's tallest building with over 200 apartments, as well as offices. To the east of One Albert Quay, four buildings are currently being built, part of Ireland's biggest office development outside of Dublin. Across the water, a 40 storey skyscraper is being proposed, and across the water from that, a large office/retail/residential/hotel scheme is about to go for planning on Horgan's Quay. And then there are Pairc Ui Chaoimh and Marina Park. Ann Doherty said in an interview that not all of the land in the Docklands is owned by them, and if I remember right she said only one site was owned by NAMA. Tivoli can't happen without moving the port to Ringaskiddy, which can't really happen without the motorway. The Docklands is doing fine and the excuse of "it's all just talk" is a load of garbage.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

mire wrote: »

So your analysis would suggest that Cork City contributes a very little in economic terms to the overall economy of the region. That is utter nonsense. Factually incorrect.

The census results published last week indicate that Cork City and suburbs accommodate approximately 100,000 jobs. This city centre is the largest concentration of employment outside the Greater Dublin Area. The city accommodates a very large number of office based employers, i[n the city centre, the emerging Docklands District, Blackpool, Model farm road, Mahon, And the north west of the city accommodates apple computers - 6000 people employed. The city also has very large levels of employment in education and health public administration as well as retail culture entertainment and hospitality. Your portrayal of Cork City as some kind of a wasteland in economic terms is bizarre. But I know why you’d like to present it in this way. Alf smiddy has been trying this in his town hall meetings.

There is also a significant amount of employment located outside the city, In little island, Ringaskiddy and the Airport business park as well as a number of key locations Near the satellite towns, Especially Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. However to suggest that the city or even the city centre is insignificant is so far wide of the mark to be laughable.

The reason the merger was rejected was that it was a ludicrous idea. No other European City is governed as a powerless municipal district subservient to a large rural authority

I got to your first straw man, didn't bother with the rest. More of the same

I exposed your previous nonsensical post for what it was. You falsely painted a picture of the geography of economic development, suggesting the city was an economic wasteland surrounded by a Monte Carlo suburban nirvana, and I corrected you on that.

It's nonsense. And you know it is.

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

mire wrote: »

So your analysis would suggest that Cork City contributes a very little in economic terms to the overall economy of the region. That is utter nonsense. Factually incorrect.

The census results published last week indicate that Cork City and suburbs accommodate approximately 100,000 jobs. This city centre is the largest concentration of employment outside the Greater Dublin Area. The city accommodates a very large number of office based employers, i[n the city centre, the emerging Docklands District, Blackpool, Model farm road, Mahon, And the north west of the city accommodates apple computers - 6000 people employed. The city also has very large levels of employment in education and health public administration as well as retail culture entertainment and hospitality. Your portrayal of Cork City as some kind of a wasteland in economic terms is bizarre. But I know why you’d like to present it in this way. Alf smiddy has been trying this in his town hall meetings.

There is also a significant amount of employment located outside the city, In little island, Ringaskiddy and the Airport business park as well as a number of key locations Near the satellite towns, Especially Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. However to suggest that the city or even the city centre is insignificant is so far wide of the mark to be laughable.

The reason the merger was rejected was that it was a ludicrous idea. No other European City is governed as a powerless municipal district subservient to a large rural authority.

'The emerging Docklands District', the best laugh I've had all weekend.
Blackpool never reached its potential and Mahon was a mistake which may be replicated in Wilton.

I'm not sure why that's funny, to you. Docklands is happening, Blackpool has more employment now than it had in its industrial heyday, with over 3,000 non retail jobs? Mahon I agree is bad, but my point was about the existence of economic activity in the city, to correct the nonsense posted earlier.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

I'm not sure why that's funny, to you. Docklands is happening, Blackpool has more employment now than it had in its industrial heyday, with over 3,000 non retail jobs? Mahon I agree is bad, but my point was about the existence of economic activity in the city, to correct the nonsense posted earlier.

Docklands has been happening for 20 years, it will still be happening in 10 years time.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

as a pro MacKinnon above pointed out 81% of Balincolligers work in the city. So the city enjoys the benifets of the rates arising from their employers, and those providing ancillary services (Eg parking, food service etc. without the expenses of providing domestic services to them.
LUTS/CASP was agreed between two authorities to develop the region, County agreed with them that the City should be the economic engine, via high density services in the city and development of the dock lands. Other than Mahon, City have done fcuk all.


2.2 million punters used Cork Airport.
I can't see how your point has relevance in this regard. In fairness, you've had better points!

So 81% of Ballincolligers are working in the City but aren't really from the City.

The whole country had a bad economic crash not too long ago. Considering the Dockland redevelopment is a multi billion euro project I feel okay with the progress we have seen so far. It's not going to change overnight.

Water John

I live 20 miles from the city and a lot of people around here commute to the city every day. By your logic...etc.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

I exposed your previous nonsensical post for what it was. You falsely painted a picture of the geography of economic development, suggesting the city was an economic wasteland surrounded by a Monte Carlo suburban nirvana, and I corrected you on that.

It's nonsense. And you know it is.

Jasis
Another straw man...

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

So 81% of Ballincolligers are working in the City but aren't really from the City.
.

Eh... Not sure...is where you're from where you work or where you live-where you regard as home?
(I think you missed my point, no worries though)

I think the people of Ballincollig should have a say whether they're City or County, rather than a Scottish planner hired in to put manners on the County, and a few City public representatives they had no part in mandating, shouting from the proverbial rooftops what's best for them.

Father in Law from Glanmire, he wants no hand, act or part of living in the 'City'

namloc1980

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Father in Law from Glanmire, he wants no hand, act or part of living in the 'City'

Complete nonsense of course. It will make virtually zero difference to people's lives. In fact it might even be an improvement to have a single authority making long term planning decisions for the city and suburbs, and not the disjointed mess we currently have.

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

Complete nonsense of course. It will make virtually zero difference to people's lives. In fact it might even be an improvement to have a single authority making long term planning decisions for the city and suburbs, and not the disjointed mess we currently have.

I've a funny idea you've no idea of the difference in service delivery between the City + County!

So we should merge them? That horse has bolted.
(City and County usually have regard to each other's CPDs and policies for sites straddling boundary, plus we've a South West regional planning forum

http://www.southernassembly.ie/uploads/general-files/http---www.southernassembly_.ie-images-uploads-SWRA_Planning_Guidelines_.pdf

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Docklands has been happening for 20 years, it will still be happening in 10 years time.

I certainly hope so

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Eh... Not sure...is where you're from where you work or where you live-where you regard as home?
(I think you missed my point, no worries though)

I think the people of Ballincollig should have a say whether they're City or County, rather than a Scottish planner hired in to put manners on the County, and a few City public representatives they had no part in mandating, shouting from the proverbial rooftops what's best for them.

Father in Law from Glanmire, he wants no hand, act or part of living in the 'City'

Oh, it's because he's Scottish. Now we see your true colours. At least you're not doing the ''its the D4meeja thing'', although your hero Alf smiddy has gone down that road.

Perhaps the government should have asked your father in law, and got him to decide! Now that is comedy.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I got to your first straw man, didn't bother with the rest. More of the same

I'll take that as an admission that your arguments as set out previously were without foundation, silly and entirely evidence free.