Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The second City of the Irish state have the 17th largest council in the Country by population. There are only 31 Councils in the Country.
Yet it has the second highest density, the only council that has a higher density is Dublin obviously.

And.

The smallest council in the Country by land area;
Cork City Council = 39.61 km2

The biggest council in the Country by land area;
Cork County Council = 7,467 km2

But the whole thing is nothing but an unfair and unjust land grab. :rolleyes:


Link to stats.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

You're shifting the goalposts pretty quick! The fact is that Cork County Council is proposing to rezone a substantial proportion of its green belt to housing, all at the edge of the built up areas. They appear to be determined to give in to the huge pressures from key landowners for rezoning in these greenfield sites.

This is in direct conflict with CASP.

Where's that map?
I'm tilting at windmills here with you

Frostybrew

mire wrote: »

You're shifting the goalposts pretty quick! The fact is that Cork County Council is proposing to rezone a substantial proportion of its green belt to housing, all at the edge of the built up areas. They appear to be determined to give in to the huge pressures from key landowners for rezoning in these greenfield sites.

This is in direct conflict with CASP.

While the expansion on the North of the city has some merit in rebalancing growth. The proposed erosion of the green belt between both Bishopstown and Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill and Midleton is a very unwelcome development.

It's similar to what happened in Dublin in the 80's and 90's as greenbelt was extensively rezoned at the behest of developers and to the detriment of the city.

I fear that this is the beginning of a similar process of developer led planning which will have detrimental consequences to standards of living.

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The second City of the Irish state have the 17th largest council in the Country by population. There are only 31 Councils in the Country.
Yet it has the second highest density, the only council that has a higher density is Dublin obviously.

And.

The smallest council in the Country by land area;
Cork City Council = 39.61 km2

The biggest council in the Country by land area;
Cork County Council = 7,467 km2

Isn't this entirely appropriate though?
2nd city with 2nd highest density...


If Mackonnon goes ahead, it'll have a population density similar to capitals like Nuuk

Not sure what is wanted. High density or big area. Both? Somewhere between?
(like the county proposal?)

twinytwo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

First time we agree on something?!

Blarney/Tower is a absolute disaster of a sprawling mess. Only the northern ring road will sort it.

Problem I see though is if these become City , will the City just sprawl out to meet them, exacerbating the mess.

There is talk of building 15,000 houses between Blarney and Cork City. That is where the real problem lies. Before the crash they were going to build 1200 houses near the old golf course.. all coming down station road... you want to talk about a mess!

In reality this boils down to two things:

1. City council has slowly killed off small/medium buisnesses in Cork city - due to high rates. More and more buisnesses move out of the city. Getting the likes of little island and ballincollig nets them a nice little sum.. until they push the business even further out.

2. Rezoning green belts for housing. This in itself a major problem. Ireland as a whole needs to start building up not out. At what point do you stop going out? when dublin joins with belfast and cork with limerick?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Isn't this entirely appropriate though?
2nd city with 2nd highest density...


If Mackonnon goes ahead, it'll have a population density similar to capitals like Nuuk

Not sure what is wanted. High density or big area. Both? Somewhere between?
(like the county proposal?)

That's fairly disingenuous and silly to what my post said in all fairness.

Cork City is the 2nd City by population with the 2nd highest density by Council Area, but it only has the 17th biggest population by Council (14th smallest out of 31 Council Areas).

How is Cork City meant to stand up for itself as the second City of the state when Wexford, Louth and Kerry have bigger Local Councils than them? The whole thing puts the City at such a bad and unnecessary disadvantage.

Cork City are getting a raw deal from the County here. There's no other way to put it.

Rochestown shouldn't be in the same council area as Bantry. And Ballincollig shouldn't be in the same Council Area as Charleville. And Glanmire shouldn't be in the same council area as Youghal. It simply makes no sense to administer them together.

DylanGLC

twinytwo wrote: »

Ireland as a whole needs to start building up not out. At what point do you stop going out? when dublin joins with belfast and cork with limerick?

The sooner this is realised and we stop saving old, run down buildings with no architectural merit/outdated building styles and limitations just for the sake of "culture", "history" and protected views, the better. Keep Galway with two storey buildings. Even the rural towns. But Dublin and Cork (even Limerick and maybe Waterford) need to progress to high rise, specifically in the Docklands, to prevent getting caught behind while we claim we are respecting the past. Look at Belfast, plenty of 10+ storey buildings. In that sense it is fine.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

That's fairly disingenuous and silly to what my post said in all fairness.

Cork City is the 2nd City by population with the 2nd highest density by Council Area, but it only has the 17th biggest population by Council (14th smallest out of 31 Council Areas).

How is Cork City meant to stand up for itself as the second City of the state when Wexford, Louth and Kerry have bigger Local Councils than them? The whole thing puts the City at such a bad and unnecessary disadvantage.

Cork City are getting a raw deal from the County here. There's no other way to put it.

Rochestown shouldn't be in the same council area as Bantry. And Ballincollig shouldn't be in the same Council Area as Charleville. And Glanmire shouldn't be in the same council area as Youghal. It simply makes no sense to administer them together.

I'm going to reply to myself here as I want to tag on one more point now.

It is 118km from Charleville to Bantry, then its 135km from Bantry over to Youghal (going through the City ), then its 90km depending on which route to take to avoid traffic back up to Charleville.

A 343km round trip!

But the Model Farm Road is only a 'ribbon' development between the Old Tennis Village and Ballincollig which means it couldn't possibly be part of the Cork City Urban Area as it has its own 'identity'. :pac:

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

That's fairly disingenuous and silly to what my post said in all fairness.

Cork City is the 2nd City by population with the 2nd highest density by Council Area, but it only has the 17th biggest population by Council (14th smallest out of 31 Council Areas).

How is Cork City meant to stand up for itself as the second City of the state when Wexford, Louth and Kerry have bigger Local Councils than them? The whole thing puts the City at such a bad and unnecessary disadvantage.

Cork City are getting a raw deal from the County here. There's no other way to put it.

Rochestown shouldn't be in the same council area as Bantry. And Ballincollig shouldn't be in the same Council Area as Charleville. And Glanmire shouldn't be in the same council area as Youghal. It simply makes no sense to administer them together.

"Silly"? Less of the hostility please.
Cool the cogs, you made a rather unavailing and pointless observation that there's some sort of sociogeological injustice being visited on Cork, or that the County should just hand over parts of itself, because it's just so big, I just applied a smidgen of reductio ad absurdum to your reasoning, as you'll be aware population density is critical for several reasons from an urban sustainability perspective, for productivity and human capital potential. MacKinnon will give us a very sparse capital, contrary to most theory of sustainable urban planning.

What do you mean anyway by "bigger" Councils anyway? Functional area? Number of staff? Population served?
What's your point? Someone has to be the smallest, someone the biggest. There isn't a requirement that we have a mean local authority with low standard deviation.

FWIW I agree Cork is being stiffed by the County, they should get a significant expansion. But MacKinnon isn't the expansion that Cork (the totality) requires.

Notwithstanding Rochestown isn't in the same area as Bantry, that's a nonargument. By your logic Waterfall shouldn't be in the same area as Knocknaheeney, upper Whitechurch should not be in the same area as Patrick St. They are where they are.

Water John

Not sure why you stop in Bantry. There's a lot more of West Cork beyond Bantry.
Cork County is over 200km from west to east.
That is why Cork County Council actually worked in three separate areas.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Cork City's population is only 125,622 though. The whole thing is way off balance.

See, I don't get what the big deal is about the population of Cork City. From my previous post on this, it's not a big deal for employers. So what else does it achieve?

The City Council controlling Ballincollig for example. What does it mean or result in? One poster at least has already said that Joe Average wouldn't even notice the difference; so where's the benefit?

You might belittle the 'identity' issue that some people may have, but that's probably the worst way to resolve their concerns. Maybe they don't want to be classified as 'city' people, maybe they like that it's 'Ballincollig' rather than another part of 'Cork City', maybe they rate the County Council more so that the City Council......
I don't know, but t's not just as simple as "like it or lump it".

If the answer to the question is 'population increase', then isn't the question why have the City Council not expanded upwards? I think that rational areas like Douglas should be part of the city (Douglas itself would probably see itself as such), but why do we need the City in control of towns well outside of the city? To grow? To sprawl outwards?

To repeat, I'm not a professional with knowledge in this area, not do I claim to be. But the 'size' argument is repeated a number of times, but nothing to say what the City Councils plans are should they get a significant increase.
Not looking to butt heads with anyone, genuine questions, interested (like everyone) in what's good for both City and County.

KCAccidental

munstermagic11 wrote: »

See, I don't get what the big deal is about the population of Cork City. From my previous post on this, it's not a big deal for employers. So what else does it achieve?

The City Council controlling Ballincollig for example. What does it mean or result in? One poster at least has already said that Joe Average wouldn't even notice the difference; so where's the benefit?

You might belittle the 'identity' issue that some people may have, but that's probably the worst way to resolve their concerns. Maybe they don't want to be classified as 'city' people, maybe they like that it's 'Ballincollig' rather than another part of 'Cork City', maybe they rate the County Council more so that the City Council......
I don't know, but t's not just as simple as "like it or lump it".

If the answer to the question is 'population increase', then isn't the question why have the City Council not expanded upwards? I think that rational areas like Douglas should be part of the city (Douglas itself would probably see itself as such), but why do we need the City in control of towns well outside of the city? To grow? To sprawl outwards?

To repeat, I'm not a professional with knowledge in this area, not do I claim to be. But the 'size' argument is repeated a number of times, but nothing to say what the City Councils plans are should they get a significant increase.
Not looking to butt heads with anyone, genuine questions, interested (like everyone) in what's good for both City and County.

The enlarged City can access extra funding from Europe for various things on a population basis.

As for the sprawl argument... Guess which council is planning to put 5,000 houses in South Ballincollig and a Science Park in Curraheen cutting off the green belt completely?

mire

KCAccidental wrote: »

munstermagic11 wrote: »

See, I don't get what the big deal is about the population of Cork City. From my previous post on this, it's not a big deal for employers. So what else does it achieve?

The City Council controlling Ballincollig for example. What does it mean or result in? One poster at least has already said that Joe Average wouldn't even notice the difference; so where's the benefit?

You might belittle the 'identity' issue that some people may have, but that's probably the worst way to resolve their concerns. Maybe they don't want to be classified as 'city' people, maybe they like that it's 'Ballincollig' rather than another part of 'Cork City', maybe they rate the County Council more so that the City Council......
I don't know, but t's not just as simple as "like it or lump it".

If the answer to the question is 'population increase', then isn't the question why have the City Council not expanded upwards? I think that rational areas like Douglas should be part of the city (Douglas itself would probably see itself as such), but why do we need the City in control of towns well outside of the city? To grow? To sprawl outwards?

To repeat, I'm not a professional with knowledge in this area, not do I claim to be. But the 'size' argument is repeated a number of times, but nothing to say what the City Councils plans are should they get a significant increase.
Not looking to butt heads with anyone, genuine questions, interested (like everyone) in what's good for both City and County.

The enlarged City can access extra funding from Europe for various things on a population basis.

As for the sprawl argument... Guess which council is planning to put 5,000 houses in South Ballincollig and a Science Park in Curraheen cutting off the green belt completely?

Don't forget the proposals to rezone huge parts of the greenbelt in the south city environs, carrigtwohill, ballyhooley. Essentially anywhere that CASP had rejected on the basis of unsustainability and bad planning. No public transport, pristine agricultural land. Anti planning imo.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

Don't forget the proposals to rezone huge parts of the greenbelt in the south city environs, carrigtwohill, ballyhooley. Essentially anywhere that CASP had rejected on the basis of unsustainability and bad planning. No public transport, pristine agricultural land. Anti planning imo.

Ballyhooley is between Castletownroche and Fermoy.

Ballyvolane (on the Ballyhooley Road) is an agreed 'urban area expansion', while Curraheen was identified as a potential area for the science park in the AGREED review of CASP.

You really need to sort out those ducks, the big bad County Council , while guilty of some atrocious planning decisions, is doing this in agreement with the City, the same as the city is finally getting around to developing the dock lands.

The green belt (while desirous to retain is not some pristine Amazonian rainforest, the loss of which would be a global catastrophe) along with both local authorities' planning policies has seen the population of the city drop, but that of metro Cork grow, and was agreed some changes to it were required to reverse certain trends, while acknowledging where it was put could realistically become included in any expansion.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ballyhooley is between Castletownroche and Fermoy.

Ballyvolane (on the Ballyhooley Road) is an agreed 'urban area expansion', while Curraheen was identified as a potential area for the science park in the AGREED review of CASP.

You really need to sort out those ducks, the big bad County Council , while guilty of some atrocious planning decisions, is doing this in agreement with the City, the same as the city is finally getting around to developing the dock lands.

The green belt (while desirous to retain is not some pristine Amazonian rainforest, the loss of which would be a global catastrophe) along with both local authorities' planning policies has seen the population of the city drop, but that of metro Cork grow, and was agreed some changes to it were required to reverse certain trends, while acknowledging where it was put could realistically become included in any expansion.

I give credit to Cork County council where it's due - For example Ballincollig, But equally I would be critical When they propose to depart from what was agreed in CASP. If you really think that Cork City council have somehow agreed to the science park, And to the rezoning of hundreds of hectares in the southern and northern environs you are either being disingenuous or grossly mistaken.

The idea that population growth demanded the rezoning of the pristine green belt is rubbish; This is developer led. The development of these lands will make sure that the existing zoned lands in places like Midleton and carrigtwohill and Monard (In sustainable locations along the railway line ) Will probably never Be realized.

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

As for the sprawl argument... Guess which council is planning to put 5,000 houses in South Ballincollig and a Science Park in Curraheen cutting off the green belt completely?

See above re the latter part of your argument

KCAccidental wrote: »

The enlarged City can access extra funding from Europe for various things on a population basis.

Hand-out mentality, similar to the County being compensated by central government for loss of income from any transfer of rates. The money fairies...someone else paying my way...

Those days are gone, Ireland is now a net contributor to Europe (population density is a significant element of such capital funding).

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time-34815450.html

mire

Three interesting bits of news from yesterday, noteworthy in particular in the context of Alf Smiddy's (and others) depiction of the city as an economic wasteland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/state-must-help-cork-become-true-second-city-1.3210377 - Note the scale of development occurring in the city centre

http://www.irishexaminer.com/property/capitol-sale-funds-jcd-458474.html - European pension funds don't invest in economic wastelands and seem to have confidence in city. JCD Developments also set to start new office scheme on south Mall. Dalata Also commencing their new hotel development on south mall/parnell place.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/property/major-hq-development-for-cork-quayside-458473.html One of the most important redevelopment sites in the country - located in the emerging Docklands District.

Reputable Rog

"the emerging Docklands" :rolleyes::D

rebs23

Reputable Rog wrote: »

"the emerging Docklands" :rolleyes::D

It's actually happening/beginning. Albert Quay, 1 scheme completed another one started, Horgans Quay planning application lodged.
PUC completed at other end. It's a start.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

If you really think that Cork City council have somehow agreed to the science park, And to the rezoning of hundreds of hectares in the southern and northern environs you are either being disingenuous or grossly mistaken.

If you can keep the slights to yourself, this would be more pleasant experience for everyone. Twice you've accused me of trolling. Rather than stooping to your level, I can only assume you're either relying on an earlier iteration of CASP, haven't actually even read it, or genuinely haven't a clue. I started this thread to discuss possible options and elicit opinions, rather than have to deal with this nonsense.

I'll do this very slowly:
From City Council:
"Cork Area Strategic Plan is a framework to enable Cork to become a leading European city region - globally competitive, socially inclusive and culturally enriched..Cork City Council and Cork County Council prepared a Strategic Plan for the area...was adopted* by Cork City Council and Cork County Council on 22nd October 2001

*don't lost sight of the significant of that word. It means more than you realise.

CASP was reviewed in 2008 Of relevance to your contention are statements like:
"New strategic employment locations to satisfy the projected increase in market and non-market services in the CASP region are identified at Tivoli, Tramore Road (South Ring Road), Ballincollig, and Curraheen"
&
"This proposed new science park should be located close to the city and one option identified for this is at Curraheen. It is also appropriate that R+D activities are included as part of the Docklands development"


but also a significant objective for Cork ( and lets remind ourselves this was developed and ratified by both City and County Councils) that "The City Centre will continue to be the engine of growth for the sub-region and Docklands is the key location in this regard"



The County isn't out to "get" the City. Rid yourself of this notion. You can continue to be misinformed, but please don't accuse others of such a state of nescience. You're derailing the thread with inaccurate posts, childish accusations, and misinformation. Unless you're privy to City and County Planning SPC meetings, we can only rely on public documents.

mire wrote: »

The idea that population growth demanded the rezoning of the pristine green belt is rubbish; This is developer led. The development of these lands will make sure that the existing zoned lands in places like Midleton and carrigtwohill and Monard (In sustainable locations along the railway line ) Will probably never Be realized.

Not entirely true (but not entirely false either). Re. the greenbelt and other considerations, there's a recognition that population growth has occurred in the Metro area, to the detriment of the City urban area. Plenty of zoned residential land in Aghabolluge, Kankurk, Ballydesmond, Newmarket etc., but people want to live closer to the city rather than spending an hour and a half in the car on the Mallow road coming to work/college etc.. i.e. sustainable development, where infrastructure can be provided. Lets not just shove people out in the countryside. Midleton and Carrigtohill are probably approaching max sprawl, infrastructure is at capacity. There's a need to cool growth in the Metro, and promote growth in the City, or at least closer to the city. Monard will go ahead, probably under the control of the City, it'll be part of some deal.



"the role and function of Greenbelts to provide for the passive and active recreational needs of the urban populations both in the City and in Metropolitan and Ring towns. Adjustments may need to ensure sustainable development being close to key infrastructure areas"
&
"Joint co-operation, liaison and co-ordination on key Metropolitan Cork planning issues, including car parking; employment policies including office developments; recreational and amenity policies, including the role of the greenbelt; and public transport"

Roger Hassenforder

rebs23 wrote: »

It's actually happening/beginning. Albert Quay, 1 scheme completed another one started, Horgans Quay planning application lodged.
PUC completed at other end. It's a start.

in fairness, its a very welcome start, and great to finally see.
But lets not be clapping ourselves on the backs. The noughties boom came and went without a proverbial sod being turned, or a kip being knocked. The subsequent recession put it back a few years. agreed policy was not followed in there for a long time.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

If you can keep the slights to yourself, this would be more pleasant experience for everyone. Twice you've accused me of trolling. Rather than stooping to your level, I can only assume you're either relying on an earlier iteration of CASP, haven't actually even read it, or genuinely haven't a clue. I started this thread to discuss possible options and elicit opinions, rather than have to deal with this nonsense.

I'll do this very slowly:
From City Council:
"Cork Area Strategic Plan is a framework to enable Cork to become a leading European city region - globally competitive, socially inclusive and culturally enriched..Cork City Council and Cork County Council prepared a Strategic Plan for the area...was adopted* by Cork City Council and Cork County Council on 22nd October 2001

*don't lost sight of the significant of that word. It means more than you realise.

CASP was reviewed in 2008 Of relevance to your contention are statements like:
"New strategic employment locations to satisfy the projected increase in market and non-market services in the CASP region are identified at Tivoli, Tramore Road (South Ring Road), Ballincollig, and Curraheen"
&
"This proposed new science park should be located close to the city and one option identified for this is at Curraheen. It is also appropriate that R+D activities are included as part of the Docklands development"


but also a significant objective for Cork ( and lets remind ourselves this was developed and ratified by both City and County Councils) that "The City Centre will continue to be the engine of growth for the sub-region and Docklands is the key location in this regard"



The County isn't out to "get" the City. Rid yourself of this notion. You can continue to be misinformed, but please don't accuse others of such a state of nescience. You're derailing the thread with inaccurate posts, childish accusations, and misinformation. Unless you're privy to City and County Planning SPC meetings, we can only rely on public documents.






Not entirely true (but not entirely false either). Re. the greenbelt and other considerations, there's a recognition that population growth has occurred in the Metro area, to the detriment of the City urban area. Plenty of zoned residential land in Aghabolluge, Kankurk, Ballydesmond, Newmarket etc., but people want to live closer to the city rather than spending an hour and a half in the car on the Mallow road coming to work/college etc.. i.e. sustainable development, where infrastructure can be provided. Lets not just shove people out in the countryside. Midleton and Carrigtohill are probably approaching max sprawl, infrastructure is at capacity. There's a need to cool growth in the Metro, and promote growth in the City, or at least closer to the city. Monard will go ahead, probably under the control of the City, it'll be part of some deal.



"the role and function of Greenbelts to provide for the passive and active recreational needs of the urban populations both in the City and in Metropolitan and Ring towns. Adjustments may need to ensure sustainable development being close to key infrastructure areas"
&
"Joint co-operation, liaison and co-ordination on key Metropolitan Cork planning issues, including car parking; employment policies including office developments; recreational and amenity policies, including the role of the greenbelt; and public transport"

Please do not be offended by my post; I actually don't know what trolling means. I genuinely do not I mean to be offensive. As I am sure you don't mean to be patronising.

I'm simply engaging in a debate and I strongly disagree with your interpretations and presentation of facts.

I will show you how.

You are confused about CASP. CASP was adopted in 2001 by Cork City and county councils. It had no provision for a science park, or for rezonings in the green belt. CASP was then updated in 2008 by a different firm of consultants, to provide for economic uplift of the noughties.

This introduced the prospect of a science park and mentioned Curraheen. It did not sanction any significant rezoning of the green belt but it did allocate more growth to the towns in metropolitan cork. This is generally understood to be a weakening of CASP in response to pressure from the construction industry federation.

Significantly, the CASP update was not subject to democratic oversight unlike its predecessor. It was not passed as a statutory document in the same way that CASP 2001 was. The science park was in effect provided as a sop to Cork County council; the city had their Docklands project so the county have to have something similar. This is not a conspiracy theory; and it’s not particularly shocking either. In economic and planning terms you can have one but not the other and the science park is effectively competition for the Docklands. To pretend that a city the size of cork could accommodate two such similar projects is delusional. It is fundamentally unsustainable. Cork City council’s planning department made formal submissions to the science park project in this regard. In other words Cork City council objected to it on the basis of the negative impacts it would have on the Docklands. That is quite different than the picture you paint.

I don’t believe that the county is out to get the city so to speak. But some of the recent decisions in relation to zoning and development seem to suggest that there is now open disregard for the city and the whole idea of CASP. The zonings in the strategic land reserve are entirely inconsistent with CASP; they are fundamentally unsustainable and the undermine not only the balanced development of the entire metropolitan area, but also the towns located within it. I will also draw your attention to Cork County councils attempt to develop a very large Tesco supermarket in banduff, Which was opposed by Cork City council. Evidence - Not that the county's out to get the city - But that the notion of an agreed and harmonious planning approach between the two is nonsense.

You suggested that the metropolitan area is somehow full. This is incorrect; there is huge capacity in the towns along the railway corridor for growth. Cork County council themselves prepared local area plans for Midleton, Carrigtwohill, blarney in 2006 for lands around the railway stations. There has been almost no development in these locations, but now the county council appear to be weakening their commitment to the commuter rail project – by zoning land almost everywhere else. You suggest that the infrastructure in those places is at capacity - Where are you getting your information from ? There are hundreds of hectares of undeveloped lands For tens of thousands of houses with new roads new railway stations waiting for development.

Again, whilst I would agree that the Docklands has not proceeded as quickly as the original strategy in 2001 would have envisaged, to suggest that nothing was done during the noughties is just completely inaccurate, again. It is worth looking at the master plan from 2001 and comparing it to the development that has occurred in the south city gateway district, and the city centre expansion zone; this has included quite a significant amount of residential, office, hospitality uses. Including Albert quay, Anglesea street, the elysian, lapp’s quay which are effectively completely new cityscape, and with a new round of very substantial developments at navigation square, horgan’s quay and custom house point to come.

kooga

don't forget we got Goldbergs and Salt

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

Please do not be offended by my post; I actually don't know what trolling means. I genuinely do not I mean to be offensive. As I am sure you don't mean to be patronising.

I'm simply engaging in a debate and I strongly disagree with your interpretations and presentation of facts.

fair enough, we'll call a truce.
Less of the obnoxiousness so.

(but you started...no you started... no you did...no your mother...0)

mire wrote: »

You are confused about CASP :eek::eek: CASP was adopted in 2001 by Cork City and county councils. It had no provision for a science park, or for rezonings in the green belt. CASP was then updated in 2008 by a different firm of consultants, to provide for economic uplift of the noughties. This introduced the prospect of a science park and mentioned Curraheen. It did not sanction any significant rezoning of the green belt but it did allocate more growth to the towns in metropolitan cork. This is generally understood to be a weakening of CASP in response to pressure from the construction industry federation.

You're factually wrong here Mire.
From the 2001 CASP:
The proposed Ballincollig bypass could release development land to the south of the settlement and also allow the creation of a strengthened local town centre, which is currently undeveloped. The bypass will also connect it to the southern suburbs with their associated facilities. Education, research and science type uses could expand in Ballincollig, incorporating an academic village or science park.

the bypass went in, so plans were made for a science park...
I cant see how this is a surprise? Or could be inferred somehow the County are pulling a stroke and shafting the City. (It might have come as a shock to the City that they were going ahead with it hence the objections/observations you might link evidence, I'm not au fe with the ins and outs of it between the respective Councils??)

mire wrote: »

You are confused about CASP. CASP was adopted in 2001 by Cork City and county councils.
Significantly, the CASP update was not subject to democratic oversight unlike its predecessor. It was not passed as a statutory document in the same way that CASP 2001 was.

I don’t believe that the county is out to get the city so to speak. But some of the recent decisions in relation to zoning and development seem to suggest that there is now open disregard for the city and the whole idea of CASP. The zonings in the strategic land reserve are entirely inconsistent with CASP; they are fundamentally unsustainable and the undermine not only the balanced development of the entire metropolitan area, but also the towns located within it.
You suggested that the metropolitan area is somehow full. This is incorrect; there is huge capacity in the towns along the railway corridor for growth. Cork County council themselves prepared local area plans for Midleton, Carrigtwohill, blarney in 2006 for lands around the railway stations. There has been almost no development in these locations, but now the county council appear to be weakening their commitment to the commuter rail project – by zoning land almost everywhere else. You suggest that the infrastructure in those places is at capacity - Where are you getting your information from ? There are hundreds of hectares of undeveloped lands For tens of thousands of houses with new roads new railway stations waiting for development.

the issue isn't inadequate zoning, its infrastructural capacity, but more importantly the issue is where the people are living.
Census 2011 provided an opportunity to compare population demographics with those planned for in the SWRPG. Metro Cork had -49% expected population growth (would have been worse except for a population explosion in 2011), while the greater Cork saw 406% growth. Clearly unsustainable, but you seem to want this to continue decrying the shift from development in the likes of Carrigtohill and Midleton to building houses closer to the city?

The County 2014 CDP identified that min 360Ha would need to be rezoned in the next LAPs to allow for development in Metro Cork near the city , in accordance with the SWRPG 2014-2018 objectives. There is nothing untoward, underhand or surprising going on.


Even MacKinnon agrees we’re doing something wrong with where people are forced to live:
“until recently population growth in the city centre has been static, whereas by 2012 the ring area around the city had already achieved population figures in excess of the regional planning guidelines target for 2022. This is seen as operating to the disadvantage of the city in particular. Development has increasingly taken place in satellite and market towns around Cork and in a ‘daisy chain’ of industrial / business parks”


even the Housing Agency agrees:
https://www.housingagency.ie/Housing/media/Media/Publications/Future-Housing-Supply-Requirements-Report.pdf
In Cork City and suburbs, there will be a housing supply requirement of 268 units in 2015, rising to a per annum requirement of 1,469 units in 2018. There are close parallels in identified requirements in Galway and Limerick. Both cities will experience a shortfall in housing requirements in 2015 and require a total of 2,316 and 2,635 units respectively over the subsequent 4 years to 2018.


So unless you want a Limerick where there’s a doughnut population around the City as you seem to want everyone living in Carrigtohill, while sites sit idle in the city, something has to be done with regard to planning policy. They’re doing it.

mire wrote: »

I will also draw your attention to Cork County councils attempt to develop a very large Tesco supermarket in banduff Ballyvolane, Which was opposed by Cork City council. Evidence - Not that the county's out to get the city - But that the notion of an agreed and harmonious planning approach between the two is nonsense.

IIRC the County were pro Tesco in Ballyvollane, City refused the road access (possibly having regard to the significant rate payer with 2 large sites one immediately adjacent, the other in close proximity to them who would have been adversely affected by the development...are we that naive to think this mightn’t happen...)

j8wk2feszrnpao

KCAccidental wrote: »

The enlarged City can access extra funding from Europe for various things on a population basis.

As for the sprawl argument... Guess which council is planning to put 5,000 houses in South Ballincollig and a Science Park in Curraheen cutting off the green belt completely?

So it's just rates and funds?
If people are knocking the County for just looking after their own interests, isn't that what the City is doing?

As for the sprawling argument, I'm asking about the City Concil as they may be taking over significant areas. What's are their plans?

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

Please do not be offended by my post; I actually don't know what trolling means. I genuinely do not I mean to be offensive. As I am sure you don't mean to be patronising.

I'm simply engaging in a debate and I strongly disagree with your interpretations and presentation of facts.

I will show you how.

You are confused about CASP. CASP was adopted in 2001 by Cork City and county councils. It had no provision for a science park, or for rezonings in the green belt. CASP was then updated in 2008 by a different firm of consultants, to provide for economic uplift of the noughties.

This introduced the prospect of a science park and mentioned Curraheen. It did not sanction any significant rezoning of the green belt but it did allocate more growth to the towns in metropolitan cork. This is generally understood to be a weakening of CASP in response to pressure from the construction industry federation.

Significantly, the CASP update was not subject to democratic oversight unlike its predecessor. It was not passed as a statutory document in the same way that CASP 2001 was. The science park was in effect provided as a sop to Cork County council; the city had their Docklands project so the county have to have something similar. This is not a conspiracy theory; and it’s not particularly shocking either. In economic and planning terms you can have one but not the other and the science park is effectively competition for the Docklands. To pretend that a city the size of cork could accommodate two such similar projects is delusional. It is fundamentally unsustainable. Cork City council’s planning department made formal submissions to the science park project in this regard. In other words Cork City council objected to it on the basis of the negative impacts it would have on the Docklands. That is quite different than the picture you paint.

I don’t believe that the county is out to get the city so to speak. But some of the recent decisions in relation to zoning and development seem to suggest that there is now open disregard for the city and the whole idea of CASP. The zonings in the strategic land reserve are entirely inconsistent with CASP; they are fundamentally unsustainable and the undermine not only the balanced development of the entire metropolitan area, but also the towns located within it. I will also draw your attention to Cork County councils attempt to develop a very large Tesco supermarket in banduff, Which was opposed by Cork City council. Evidence - Not that the county's out to get the city - But that the notion of an agreed and harmonious planning approach between the two is nonsense.

You suggested that the metropolitan area is somehow full. This is incorrect; there is huge capacity in the towns along the railway corridor for growth. Cork County council themselves prepared local area plans for Midleton, Carrigtwohill, blarney in 2006 for lands around the railway stations. There has been almost no development in these locations, but now the county council appear to be weakening their commitment to the commuter rail project – by zoning land almost everywhere else. You suggest that the infrastructure in those places is at capacity - Where are you getting your information from ? There are hundreds of hectares of undeveloped lands For tens of thousands of houses with new roads new railway stations waiting for development.

Again, whilst I would agree that the Docklands has not proceeded as quickly as the original strategy in 2001 would have envisaged, to suggest that nothing was done during the noughties is just completely inaccurate, again. It is worth looking at the master plan from 2001 and comparing it to the development that has occurred in the south city gateway district, and the city centre expansion zone; this has included quite a significant amount of residential, office, hospitality uses. Including Albert quay, Anglesea street, the elysian, lapp’s quay which are effectively completely new cityscape, and with a new round of very substantial developments at navigation square, horgan’s quay and custom house point to come.

Let's answer some of your assertions,

1. The Science Park-City did not object to the CSIP, the then City Manager was in support of the project.

2.The County haven't weakened their support of the commuter rail project, they adopted 2 master plans in 2015 to develop new housing areas in Carrrigtwohill and Midleton, a further expansion area was prepared for Blarney as part of the 2017 LAP.
The County Council pushed for the line to reopen, Irish Rail didn't just decide to open it.
One of the reasons Stone view wasn't developed was as a result of a condition by ABP that development could not proceed until the M20 was built.
3. Infrastructure - there are huge infrastructure deficits in Midleton in particular it also in Blarney, hence why LIHAF money was sought for the master plan site, there are infrastructure problems everywhere in the Metro area and the city is no different, particularly with regard to waste water.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

One in four vehicles responding to emergency calls in Cork city were based in outside stations — the lowest proportion of outside response for all 12 Cork areas.

City getting the raw end of the stick again it seems.

An ambulance stationed in Swords, Co Dublin, was dispatched to respond to an emergency call in Cork city last year, the Irish Examiner can reveal, writes Joe Leogue.

kub

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

One in four vehicles responding to emergency calls in Cork city were based in outside stations — the lowest proportion of outside response for all 12 Cork areas.

Well strictly speaking that has not much to do with the City / County debate and the one thing that was never mentioned in the article in The Examiner was where exactly were those Ambulances positioned when they got those calls. As CUH is such a major hospital then it probably gets patients from all over the country neverlone the county.
So any of those Ambulances could have been departing CUH when those emergency calls came in.

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

One in four vehicles responding to emergency calls in Cork city were based in outside stations — the lowest proportion of outside response for all 12 Cork areas.

City getting the raw end of the stick again it seems.

An ambulance stationed in Swords, Co Dublin, was dispatched to respond to an emergency call in Cork city last year, the Irish Examiner can reveal, writes Joe Leogue.

I think you're misinterpretating that stat*.
Only 1 in 4 of the ambulances that attended an emergency in Cork, came from outside the Cork area.
Whereas 59% of Milstreet ambulances came from outside the Milstreet area. So it's Milstreet people that should be aggrieved.
I'm more concerned whyDafuq ambulances have to come from Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny etc for emergencies in Cork.

*i could be very wrong!

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

City getting the raw end of the stick again it seems.

The city is losing out by having a major hospital nearby?