Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Roger Hassenforder

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The city is losing out by having a major hospital nearby?

Be grand, Bantry and Mallow be in Cork. City soon...

mire

oh dear, this looks bad for mr smiddy and the department

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/special-report-documents-reveal-how-senior-officials-prepared-pro-merger-information-459620.html

Frostybrew

mire wrote: »

oh dear, this looks bad for mr smiddy and the department

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/special-report-documents-reveal-how-senior-officials-prepared-pro-merger-information-459620.html

Very bad. Glad to see these shenanigans outed.

Roger Hassenforder

Smiddy really coming accross as a DOE shill.

Would like to have heard more of the middleground:

"Mr Conlan also floated the idea of a “possible new governance model” which would see a unified city and county authority dealing only with a small range of strategic and policy issues, with smaller divisional units dealing with all other functions."


I've a feeling this is what we could end up with.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Smiddy really coming accross as a DOE shill.

Would like to have heard more of the middleground:

"Mr Conlan also floated the idea of a “possible new governance model” which would see a unified city and county authority dealing only with a small range of strategic and policy issues, with smaller divisional units dealing with all other functions."


I've a feeling this is what we could end up with.

Yes, although this was outside the terms of reference of the CLGC. It was aspirational imo rather than realistic.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

Yes, although this was outside the terms of reference of the CLGC. It was aspirational imo rather than realistic.

4.c. Would have covered it.
Should certainly have been fleshed out more

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

4.c. Would have covered it.
Should certainly have been fleshed out more[/QUO

I don't think it would though. The idea of creating a unitary authority as some form of super regional council, with some form of strong sub-county divisional structure, cannot be reconciled with the current local government system which is based on counties. These have prescribed powers and it was not within the remit of the committee to allocate 'extra powers'. Unless there was a radical overhaul of the entire system of local government. A county council has prescribed executive and administrative powers. The municipal districts below that have prescribed-and very limited powers, but no executive independence. Regardless of what was in the Smiddy Report's recommendations, All that could be delivered would be a single council, with the urban area being represented by an entity with municipal district powers i.e. effectively powerless.

*By the way, The idea of the regional council covering all of county cork, with three or four local government units underneath is worth considering. This however would mean a new tier of local government being invented (The regional tier). This however was not what this Friday report recommended.It was also outside the terms of reference.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

I don't think it would though. The idea of creating a unitary authority as some form of super regional council, with some form of strong sub-county divisional structure, cannot be reconciled with the current local government system which is based on counties. These have prescribed powers and it was not within the remit of the committee to allocate 'extra powers'. Unless there was a radical overhaul of the entire system of local government. A county council has prescribed executive and administrative powers. The municipal districts below that have prescribed-and very limited powers, but no executive independence. Regardless of what was in the Smiddy Report's recommendations, All that could be delivered would be a single council, with the urban area being represented by an entity with municipal district powers i.e. effectively powerless.

*By the way, The idea of the regional council covering all of county cork, with three or four local government units underneath is worth considering. This however would mean a new tier of local government being invented (The regional tier). This however was not what this Friday report recommended.It was also outside the terms of reference.

The county is already effectively four units,Smidy suggested sticking in another City council as a division, and reforming the others

They've abolished UDCs , merged authorities, abolished town councils in recent past. There already are regional authorities, there's now "lead" authorities so it's not a great leap of the imagination to further reform LG structure, which had been moving from "Counties" to "Authorities" for years.

There were three terms of reference:
Merge
Boundary expansion
"Other" with ministerial direction

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

The county is already effectively four units,Smidy suggested sticking in another City council as a division, and reforming the others

They've abolished UDCs , merged authorities, abolished town councils in recent past. There already are regional authorities, there's now "lead" authorities so it's not a great leap of the imagination to further reform LG structure, which had been moving from "Counties" to "Authorities" for years.

There were three terms of reference:
Merge
Boundary expansion
"Other" with ministerial direction

That was what Smiddy suggested; and the key problem would be that the city would have the same legal status as a municipal district (Effectively powerless). I agree that is not a great leap of the imagination to create a regional government, But this has been resisted since the 1960s. The existing state and local government system does not want an intermediate tier. The existing regional authorities are not 'government' units in any meaningful sense; And they are effectively irrelevant. They are not elected bodies, And they have no independence in a funding or functional sense.

Regarding the terms of reference. It is news to me that there was a third option . It was my understanding that the committee (Smiddy) had two options. In fact, If you read it, the options are.

1.Boundary extension
or
2.Merger
AND
Any other matters That may be covered by ministerial direction

This is two options, with the possibility of iterations as provided for by the third sentence. This is not a third option .

*Today's press coverage and freedom of information request seems to suggest that the chairman (And the civil servants) had a preselected option Number two. The committee's work was completely undermined from the outset.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

That was what Smiddy suggested; and the key problem would be that the city would have the same legal status as a municipal district (Effectively powerless). I agree that is not a great leap of the imagination to create a regional government, But this has been resisted since the 1960s. The existing state and local government system does not want an intermediate tier. The existing regional authorities are not 'government' units in any meaningful sense; And they are effectively irrelevant. They are not elected bodies, And they have no independence in a funding or functional sense.

Regarding the terms of reference. It is news to me that there was a third option . It was my understanding that the committee (Smiddy) had two options. In fact, If you read it, the options are.

1.Boundary extension
or
2.Merger
AND
Any other matters That may be covered by ministerial direction

This is two options, with the possibility of iterations as provided for by the third sentence. This is not a third option .

*Today's press coverage and freedom of information request seems to suggest that the chairman (And the civil servants) had a preselected option Number two. The committee's work was completely undermined from the outset.

I read that as three options
A
B
C
C: provision for the minister to do/direct as he/she sees fit.

There's been a gradual erosion of the democratic function for years of LG, other than token resolution on CDPs and budgets, they've fcuk all powers. regional/mergers/abolishments is the new way unfortunately.


You're right though, it was predetermined ever before they sat down.

DylanGLC

A merger will never happen and it is pretty ridiculous. Cork has around probably 250,000 people in the urban area of the city. Nearly 550,000 people in the entire county and city. Places like Bantry and Fermoy should not (and probably never will) have the same council as the city. Even areas like Youghal and Douglas are radically different from eachother, let alone Kinsale and the South Mall. It makes zero sense to combine the two. Let the city take all of Douglas (from where the current county boundary starts to Moneygourney), all of Rochestown, Glanmire, Grange, Frankfield, Donnybrook, the airport, all of the area in the south side around Togher and so on which are not part of the city and Ballincollig. I think at this point Little Island, Blarney and Carrigtoughal and never going to happen. The sooner this is sorted the better. The county council need to stop acting like this is one of the worst things to happen for the county in a long time, and the city council need to be more realistic on the areas they 'deserve'

Water John

A merger will never happen...,now.
Don't see much wrong with your suggested new boundary, Balloincollig possibly not. It looks a false reach, on a map.

DylanGLC

I think the city council should at least be prepared to lose Ballincollig. It would be a shame but it isn't the end of the world. So long as those areas I have mentioned or added, it makes sense (to me, at least)

Water John

I think we have settled it Dylan. Just somebody now has to tell Ann Doherty.

mire

More emails from the FoI material, showing how the Chairman treated the expertise provided to his Committee. It's embarrassing for him. How did he get this gig? He has a problem with evidence, and appeared to think evidence should only be used where it suited his own narrow, pre-determined agenda (merger). He should not be paid for this work imo. He abused his position.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-council-merger-special-report-call-for-inquiry-into-plan-review-outcome-seemed-predetermined-459681.html

Water John

And was it AK47 who appointed him?
Must have a look back over the early part of this thread. Should be interesting reading. My memory seems to suggest Roger Hass, like the 2 on the review committee, was a minority opinion, getting trounced for his views.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

More emails from the FoI material, showing how the Chairman treated the expertise provided to his Committee. It's embarrassing for him. How did he get this gig? He has a problem with evidence, and appeared to think evidence should only be used where it suited his own narrow, pre-determined agenda (merger). He should not be paid for this work imo. He abused his position.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-council-merger-special-report-call-for-inquiry-into-plan-review-outcome-seemed-predetermined-459681.html

I love:
"A senior civil servant advised Cork Local Government Review (CLGR) committee chairman Alf Smiddy that it was important the committee be seen to take their time before issuing a final report in an effort to avoid accusations of a rush to judgment."

So after merging Tipp, Waterford and Limerick, Cork was next.
Galway to soon follow no doubt after extensive consultation etc.

Reputable Rog

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I love:
"A senior civil servant advised Cork Local Government Review (CLGR) committee chairman Alf Smiddy that it was important the committee be seen to take their time before issuing a final report in an effort to avoid accusations of a rush to judgment."

So after merging Tipp, Waterford and Limerick, Cork was next.
Galway to soon follow no doubt after extensive consultation etc.

That was definitely the way it was going. Limerick County Council thought they were being smart supporting the merger but it backfired and was a reverse takeover by the city. The City were opposed to a merger but it worked out for them in the end.

mire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sSd3yit514

Cork City council information campaign. Pity that this wasn't done much earlier in the process.

Water John

The present notion of forcing the County Council to cooperate with implementing the McKinnion Report, is similar to Spain trying to force the Catalans. Negotiation is far better.

Roger Hassenforder

"clever urban planning" ... "Sustainable modern public transport systems"...."driving economic growth" ...."well planed housing"..."enriching community life"...
Are they ripping the absolute pi55?

clowns cant even manage to convert a dump into an amenity.
Jog on lads. Rochestown, Ballyvollane, Douglas and Glanmire is plenty for them

"size matters"... so does "population density".

kub

Roger Hassenforder wrote:

clowns cant even manage to convert a dump into an amenity. Jog on lads. Rochestown, Ballyvollane, Douglas and Glanmire is plenty for them

Roger Hassenforder wrote:

"size matters"... so does "population density".

Perhaps the city council do not have the funds to convert the dump, due to the limitations of the rate base within its area.
Just wondering as you are so anti City what you are doing in this forum, there is a County Cork one as well.

yogmeister

Clearly the city needs to expand . And realistically all the areas recommended in the McKinnon report except carrigtohill and blarney are pretty much suburbs of the city anyway . How do people expect growth and development to happen. It's not like it's going to be a sprawling metropolis if the boundary extension goes ahead . Surely people will wake up and see this is the best way forward for everyone .

Roger Hassenforder

kub wrote: »

Perhaps the city council do not have the funds to convert the dump, due to the limitations of the rate base within its area.
Just wondering as you are so anti City what you are doing in this forum, there is a County Cork one as well.

Apologies, notwithstanding I live in the City, I didn't realise you expected an echo chamber of the same circle jerk posting that you might find more agreeable to your disposition.
Its a discussion. I started it for opinions.


its not all rates/income. They voted not to budge on the LPT. A 1% increase on LPT wouldn't even be noticed, but would provide a nice little pot, if ring fenced, for such quick win amenities like the dump.

Cork is a nice place - it could be a great place, to live.
The more we try and be a "big" city the more we'll end up a sprawl.
I lived in Dublin 5 years, it was a horrible place.

kub

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Apologies, notwithstanding I live in the City, I didn't realise you expected an echo chamber of the same circle jerk posting that you might find more agreeable to your disposition.
Its a discussion. I started it for opinions.


its not all rates/income. They voted not to budge on the LPT. A 1% increase on LPT wouldn't even be noticed, but would provide a nice little pot, if ring fenced, for such quick win amenities like the dump.

Cork is a nice place - it could be a great place, to live.
The more we try and be a "big" city the more we'll end up a sprawl.
I lived in Dublin 5 years, it was a horrible place.

Ah you want to keep the city all to yourselves and don't want us misfortunates out here in the County part of the City having an authority with Urban experience looking after us too

Roger Hassenforder

kub wrote: »

Ah you want to keep the city all to yourselves and don't want us misfortunates out here in the County part of the City having an authority with Urban experience looking after us too

If youre in the County you should be very worried. Your LPT will be going into social housing rather than cutting the trees that are blocking the street lights (as we're battling three years over) and other 'local' issues.

Query about local services? Forget about a local office, you'll be dealing with City hall, a depressing entity to do any business with, and best of luck getting anyone to get back to you, or even turn up to community meeting.

What's "unfortunate" anyway about your current plight?

kub

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

If youre in the County you should be very worried. Your LPT will be going into social housing rather than cutting the trees that are blocking the street lights (as we're battling three years over) and other 'local' issues.

Query about local services? Forget about a local office, you'll be dealing with City hall, a depressing entity to do any business with, and best of luck getting anyone to get back to you, or even turn up to community meeting.

What's "unfortunate" anyway about your current plight?

But but but in the video it said......;)
Being honest either which way, it is all the one to me. I suppose I would just like to see the city population being a true reflection of the city and its' suburbs, regardless of where they may be and how far out.

Well in the part of the county i am in I have to put up with the obvious lack of competence in the County with regard to traffic management.
Here I feel, as the City has more experience here, they would manage it better and surely would improve it.

Roger Hassenforder

kub wrote: »

But but but in the video it said......;)
Being honest either which way, it is all the one to me. I suppose I would just like to see the city population being a true reflection of the city and its' suburbs, regardless of where they may be and how far out.

Well in the part of the county i am in I have to put up with the obvious lack of competence in the County with regard to traffic management.
Here I feel, as the City has more experience here, they would manage it better and surely would improve it.

Ballincollig?
Traffic ain't great all right at times.
It's no consolation, but there's a lot worse places!!

we're agreeded the city is way too small as is. But extending it per MacKinnon isn't the answer, not only for the City, but also the entirety of Cork IMO.

snotboogie

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cork is a nice place - it could be a great place, to live.
The more we try and be a "big" city the more we'll end up a sprawl.
I lived in Dublin 5 years, it was a horrible place.

That's what's happening now on a smaller scale, unplanned sprawl into the county, mostly directly south of the city, around previous country towns. This plan has at least a semblance of forward thinking in terms of how to grow the city over the next few decades to avoid some of the same problems that are afflicting Dublin now. What's great about the report is that it is taking in undeveloped rural areas which can be earmarked for future growth, so we can plan infrastructure and services. Or we can continue to bury our heads in the sand and berate each other for getting "above our station" "trying to be Dublin" and moaning about minor NIMBY concerns. The city will grow in the next 30 to 40 years, having a central authority to plan for this is a good thing

KCAccidental

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

If youre in the County you should be very worried. Your LPT will be going into social housing rather than cutting the trees that are blocking the street lights (as we're battling three years over) and other 'local' issues.

and the real agenda emerges...