Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

That's what's happening now on a smaller scale, unplanned sprawl into the county, mostly directly south of the city, around previous country towns. This plan has at least a semblance of forward thinking in terms of how to grow the city over the next few decades to avoid some of the same problems that are afflicting Dublin now. What's great about the report is that it is taking in undeveloped rural areas which can be earmarked for future growth, so we can plan infrastructure and services. Or we can continue to bury our heads in the sand and berate each other for getting "above our station" "trying to be Dublin" and moaning about minor NIMBY concerns. The city will grow in the next 30 to 40 years, having a central authority to plan for this is a good thing

Up lads, up !!

Higher density, build proper public transport infrastructure instead of more feckin roads choked with commuters

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

and the real agenda emerges...

Selective extraction there KC!!

Do tell, what's my agenda?

DylanGLC

Population density is important but it isn't the most important thing. Seeing as height limits are being removed for residential buildings, high density in appropriate areas will be possible. This shouldn't just not go ahead because our population density will drop a bit for a few years

j8wk2feszrnpao

yogmeister wrote: »

Clearly the city needs to expand . And realistically all the areas recommended in the McKinnon report except carrigtohill and blarney are pretty much suburbs of the city anyway . How do people expect growth and development to happen. It's not like it's going to be a sprawling metropolis if the boundary extension goes ahead . Surely people will wake up and see this is the best way forward for everyone .

Is it the best way forward for the County Council or those outside of the City?
There’s a two way battle here.

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Is it the best way forward for the County Council or those outside of the City?
There’s a two way battle here.

Ultimately yes. There will be medium term revenue loss but long term the stronger the city is the stronger the county is

yogmeister

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Is it the best way forward for the County Council or those outside of the City?
There’s a two way battle here.

It ll benefit everyone in the long term if both councils cooperate . It should nt be a case of us against them. Both sides should be working together for a compromise to build a stronger city and in turn a stronger county .

j8wk2feszrnpao

yogmeister wrote: »

It ll benefit everyone in the long term if both councils cooperate . It should nt be a case of us against them. Both sides should be working together for a compromise to build a stronger city and in turn a stronger county .

They absolutely should work together to benefit all, but two separate bodies like this don’t tend to.

I understand the growth needs of the City, and agree with a number of areas that should be under their remit. But the blatant land grab the City proposed was a negotiating kick between the legs. It heighten the “them against us” stance.

The County Council have controlled/managed these attractive rates areas. Just giving them up can’t be high on their list of priorities if it’s affects the region they support.

And what are the City’s plans should they get a substantial number of their desired areas? Will they do a better job?

I’m not that bothered about who actually gets what in the end. It’s a power and money squabble between the two. Maybe as someone suggested earlier, to Joe Average it won’t make much difference. Too many people seem infatuated with “size” in the discussion.

KCAccidental

munstermagic11 wrote: »

They absolutely should work together to benefit all, but two separate bodies like this don’t tend to.

I understand the growth needs of the City, and agree with a number of areas that should be under their remit. But the blatant land grab the City proposed was a negotiating kick between the legs. It heighten the “them against us” stance.

The County Council have controlled/managed these attractive rates areas. Just giving them up can’t be high on their list of priorities if it’s affects the region they support.

And what are the City’s plans should they get a substantial number of their desired areas? Will they do a better job?

I’m not that bothered about who actually gets what in the end. It’s a power and money squabble between the two. Maybe as someone suggested earlier, to Joe Average it won’t make much difference. Too many people seem infatuated with “size” in the discussion.

a couple of points. The "land grab" is a bit of a disingenuous argument. It is based on a report headed by the chief planner of the Scottish government.

Also these attractive rates areas are only attractive because they are adjacent to the City. The County had a deliberate policy of targeting the outskirts of the city for development to get rates cash while the City ran out of space to develop. Chickens are coming home to roost with the County.

KCAccidental

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Selective extraction there KC!!

Do tell, what's my agenda?

Just found that sentence enlightening, while maybe not the spirit of your original point... from a few people around Ballincollig that I've spoken to, it seems that the biggest issue is people on the city housing list getting places to live in their areas.

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

a couple of points. The "land grab" is a bit of a disingenuous argument. It is based on a report headed by the chief planner of the Scottish government.

Also these attractive rates areas are only attractive because they are adjacent to the City. The County had a deliberate policy of targeting the outskirts of the city for development to get rates cash while the City ran out of space to develop. Chickens are coming home to roost with the County.

Let's be under no illusions; MacKinnon was brought in to do a job on the County Council, to put manners on them prior to any negotiation on a new boundary. His report is a function of his brief from the DOE.

There was no "deliberate policy" of targeting the outskirts of the city for development for rates. Little island has been an industrial zone for centuries. Ringaskiddy was a fishing village for centuries ever before a naval base and steel manufacturing started up under the Brits. Industry is there because it has always been there!

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

Just found that sentence enlightening, while maybe not the spirit of your original point... from a few people around Ballincollig that I've spoken to, it seems that the biggest issue is people on the city housing list getting places to live in their areas.

You'll have snobs everywhere
My crib is LPT from the County is subsidising services in the City, and those in the City are seeing fcuk all for our LPT.

KCAccidental

how you can say there is no deliberate policy to develop the outskirts from the county council is pretty laughable tbh. All you have to do is cross the border from city to county and see commercial parks and housing estates. Even the County's own future development plan calls for Ballincollig to become part of a contiguous urban area.

The map here makes it pretty explicit.

KCAccidental

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You'll have snobs everywhere
My crib is LPT from the County is subsidising services in the City, and those in the City are seeing fcuk all for our LPT.

the suburbs of the City, in which the vast amount of residents commute and spend their leisure time in the Metropolitan area of Cork city, currently subsidize places like Ahakista, Alihies, Newmarket & various other far flung rural areas through their LPT. Surely it makes more sense for a council devoted to an Urban area to administer urban areas.

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

the suburbs of the City, in which the vast amount of residents commute and spend their leisure time in the Metropolitan area of Cork city, currently subsidize places like Ahakista, Alihies, Newmarket & various other far flung rural areas through their LPT. Surely it makes more sense for a council devoted to an Urban area to administer urban areas.

So all urban areas should be City?

County Council keep 80% of their LPT County Council are able to balance their books from within their revenue means.
Given the dispersed rural population the LPT haul isn't enough to provide certain discretionary services, so there's a little bit of taking from Peter to pay Paul, but they're the same family so it's not too bad.

City Council get to keep 80% of their LPT plus whatever extra they get from the equalisation fund (top of my head extra 24% - I linked it earlier, some inevitably from County Council, they're effectively robbing from both Peter and Paul, also bearing in mind City Council was nearly put into administration in 2015 because they couldn't put together their budget.

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

how you can say there is no deliberate policy to develop the outskirts from the county council is pretty laughable tbh. All you have to do is cross the border from city to county and see commercial parks and housing estates. Even the County's own future development plan calls for Ballincollig to become part of a contiguous urban area.

The map here makes it pretty explicit.

Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it so no mater how often you repeat it.

You're argument has the hallmarks of which came first "the chicken or the egg"
Development follows development... people follow business follow people with services and service providers following...
Your perjorative use of "deliberate" is suggestive that the County were out to fcuk the City over. There is zero evidence this was the case. I hate to be raking over old coals and we've covered CASP already.

The golden egg (well one of them) of rates is LI. City want it. It's been industrial for 100s years. It's not a master stroke of planning by the County. It has evolved over centuries.

j8wk2feszrnpao

KCAccidental wrote: »

a couple of points. The "land grab" is a bit of a disingenuous argument. It is based on a report headed by the chief planner of the Scottish government.

Also these attractive rates areas are only attractive because they are adjacent to the City. The County had a deliberate policy of targeting the outskirts of the city for development to get rates cash while the City ran out of space to develop. Chickens are coming home to roost with the County.

Alternatively:
The “land grab” is not disingenuous.
Those attractive rates are attractive due to the businesses in those areas.
The County targeted areas and made a success out them; while the City floundered.
The City now wants those areas, like greedy chickens.

Patrick 1959

The golden egg (well one of them) of rates is LI. City want it. It's been industrial for 100s years. It's not a master stroke of planning by the County. It has evolved over centuries.[/QUOTE]

Please elaborate on the 100s of years of industry on Little Island?

Patrick 1959

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Alternatively:
The “land grab” is not disingenuous.
Those attractive rates are attractive due to the businesses in those areas.
The County targeted areas and made a success out them; while the City floundered.
The City now wants those areas, like greedy chickens.

Funny how these “Targeted”areas (airport,Little Island,Ballycureen,Forge Hill.etc etc.) are all within 1 mile of the City. Not a whole lot of successful “Targeted areas” 6 or 7 miles from the City. There is a workforce of 120,000 in the City without a Boundary Extension for 52 years ,how can you say the “city Floundered” .With the new City Boundary Extension the County Council will have to stand on its own two feet and perhaps “Target” areas like Skib,Bandon ,Youghal and Kanturk and stop feeding off the City.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Funny how these “Targeted”areas (airport,Little Island,Ballycureen,Forge Hill.etc etc.) are all within 1 mile of the City. Not a whole lot of successful “Targeted areas” 6 or 7 miles from the City. There is a workforce of 120,000 in the City without a Boundary Extension for 52 years ,how can you say the “city Floundered” .With the new City Boundary Extension the County Council will have to stand on its own two feet and perhaps “Target” areas like Skib,Bandon ,Youghal and Kanturk and stop feeding off the City.

That's the point at the core of all this. Little Island didn't develop its industry in a vacuum. Ballincollig didn't grow in size as an anomaly. Cork Airport didn't become what it is because its in the middle of nowhere. They were successful because they are an integrated part of the Cork City urban area (even though they are not officially).

CIT and UCC are going to end up having parts of their campuses in the county. Nobody can try and say they are anything but City based institutions.

I hope this gets over the line sooner rather than later.

Cork City is not merely another provincial town like Tralee or Killkenny or Waterford, that anybody from the Dublin centred government can fob off as 'down the country'. Cork City can stand on its own two feet and flourish as an area if it is allowed to.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Funny how these “Targeted”areas (airport,Little Island,Ballycureen,Forge Hill.etc etc.) are all within 1 mile of the City. Not a whole lot of successful “Targeted areas” 6 or 7 miles from the City. There is a workforce of 120,000 in the City without a Boundary Extension for 52 years ,how can you say the “city Floundered” .With the new City Boundary Extension the County Council will have to stand on its own two feet and perhaps “Target” areas like Skib,Bandon ,Youghal and Kanturk and stop feeding off the City.

Some amount of small mindedness in the thread. Obsessed with 'size' and the inferiority complex with Dublin.

I was saying it an 'alternative' way of looking at it, as I might that the County provided the City with jobs with their developments. Of course they targeted them close to the City. It was the right thing to do. And Ringskiddy is plenty distance from the City and a huge success for jobs for the region.

Feeding off the city? Are there only people from the city working in these areas? If the boundary was extended as the City wanted, and people from the County began to flood towards these areas, is that the City feeding off the County, or just plain and simple people going where the jobs are?

I've said a few times that the city should have a boundary extension. I'm not opposed to it. But including Blarney and Carrigtwohill? It was the taking the pi$$ and a clear land grab which hindered negotiations.

Roger Hassenforder

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Please elaborate on the 100s of years of industry on Little Island?
.

I've a funny feeling you're not going to bother your hoop reading these. But others might find them interesting...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/harnessing-water-and-wind-1.1133005%3Fmode=amp

http://www.epa.ie/licences/lic_eDMS/090151b28022d577.pdf
(even mentions "chemical works" in LI dating from 1875 moved from the city!)

http://liba.ie/test/history.php

mire

The whole point, in the context of the industry point, surely is that the industry in the region is not located there for non urban reasons; it is urban generated, as in one of the primary locational factors is urban proximity, as well as infrastructure, power, water etc. It's also worth pointing out that the city itself is by far the biggest concentration of employment in the region. It had about 100,000 jobs in the city and contiguous built up area.

Jobs concentrate in urban centres. This is a pretty fundamental part of economic location theory. And it's even more prevalent now than ever before. This doesn't translate that the city should govern all areas within the city's economic footprint, but it's important that this reality is acknowledged too. The reason there are tens of thousands of jobs in ringaskiddy, Little Island, Mahon, model farm road, airport business park, ovens, blackpool, holyhill, carrigtwohill is because it's an urban area.

j8wk2feszrnpao

mire wrote: »

The whole point, in the context of the industry point, surely is that the industry in the region is not located there for non urban reasons; it is urban generated, as in one of the primary locational factors is urban proximity, as well as infrastructure, power, water etc. It's also worth pointing out that the city itself is by far the biggest concentration of employment in the region. It had about 100,000 jobs in the city and contiguous built up area.

Jobs concentrate in urban centres. This is a pretty fundamental part of economic location theory. And it's even more prevalent now than ever before. This doesn't translate that the city should govern all areas within the city's economic footprint, but it's important that this reality is acknowledged too. The reason there are tens of thousands of jobs in ringaskiddy, Little Island, Mahon, model farm road, airport business park, ovens, blackpool, holyhill, carrigtwohill is because it's an urban area.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the urban factor, but I think people can over state it. As I previously stated, I put the urban/population/expansion to someone who is a major employer in the Ringaskiddy region, and it just means very little (borderline non-factor).

There are some people who just seem to want 'Cork City' to suddenly to be credited with a jump in population on paper, almost as an ego thing. And that's fine, but to employers, that appears to mean very little. We've a thread where someone is looking to setup a business in an affluent area of Cork City; and people are recommending various places, in both the City/County border. It's doesn't matter which boundary they are within from the business point of view, just as long as it meets the right criteria.

And I don't actually mind someone being of the opinion "screw the county, get the rates into the city". They can certainly have that outlook, and I can accept the honesty. But it's the County's role to also maintain their interests and have a similar stance.

It certainly makes sense for many of the areas to be under the remit of the City Council, who doesn't consider Douglas, Model Farm Road, etc as part of the city? The only issue I would have, is that the City will do a better job than the County when it comes to managing it

Anyway, Ophelia isn't gonna care about which area is City/County over the next number of hours; so will focus on that for now. Keep safe all.

Patrick 1959

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Some amount of small mindedness in the thread. Obsessed with 'size' and the inferiority complex with Dublin.

I was saying it an 'alternative' way of looking at it, as I might that the County provided the City with jobs with their developments. Of course they targeted them close to the City. It was the right thing to do. And Ringskiddy is plenty distance from the City and a huge success for jobs for the region.
Ze
Feeding off, the city? Are there only people from the city working in these areas? If the boundary was extended as the City wanted, and people from the County began to flood towards these areas, is that the City feeding off the County, or just plain and simple people going where the jobs are?

I've said a few times that the city should have a boundary extension. I'm not opposed to it. But including Blarney and Carrigtwohill? It was the taking the pi$$ and a clear land grab which hindered negotiations.

I have never mentioned Dubin ,size ,I certainly have not a inferiority complex or small minded and it’s wrong of you to say so .The majority of people living in these areas bordering the City came from or are children of City people ,I have 6 brothers & Sisters 3 of them live outside the City, 2 of my 3 children who left home do likewise, I can honestly say this was not true choice but lack of housing or land in the City.( City population 1979 138,000 ) Cork City Docks moved its Deepwater Docks in the early 1980s to Ringaskiddy this helped the areas development but credit to the IDA and county council, could they replicate this in Bantry Bay? maybe,but they play safe and built close to the City . I believe Cork County Council want to give nothing away and if pushed Blarney,Glanmire will be offered up . Little Island Airport Ballincollig they will fight tooth and nail to keep .I think Cork City will get all they’re looking for, Carrigtwohill been the gray area.Cork County Council will have more then enough land and will have more then double the City population to Develop and worry about when the City gets its long awaited Boundary Extension

j8wk2feszrnpao

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

I have never mentioned Dubin ,size ,I certainly have not a inferiority complex or small minded and it’s wrong of you to say so

I didn't say that of you directly, it was encompassing the thread.

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

The majority of people living in these areas bordering the City came from or are children of City people

So what, if true? An area of Cork City, that has a majority of people from the County could re-designated? Maybe an area of the city with a high proportion of Kerry people in there should be managed by Kerry Council?
I don't think it really matters where they are from in this discussion. The majority of people in Ballincolig are probably from the County, it's a County town; but doesn't eliminate it from being part of the discussion to become part of the city.

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

I believe Cork County Council want to give nothing away and if pushed Blarney,Glanmire will be offered up.

My understanding is that they are giving up more. But giving up nothing isn't gonna cut it.

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Cork County Council will have more then enough land and will have more then double the City population to Develop and worry about when the City gets its long awaited Boundary Extension

What are it's plans? I asked a few times, but nothing so far. What is there to be excited about? It'd be nice to know what they are planning.

Patrick 1959

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I didn't say that of you directly, it was encompassing the rethread That’s just a load of who shot John.

So what, if true? An area of Cork City, that has a majority of people from the County could re-designated? Maybe an area of the city with a high proportion of Kerry people in there should be managed by Kerry Council?
I don't think it really matters where they are from in this discussion. The majority of people in Ballincolig are probably from the County, it's a County town; but doesn't eliminate it from being part of the discussion to become part of the city.
Of course it matters the Kerry people would have had a choice to move to another part of Kerry. My kids did not, Cork City has run out of room to grow.The 1965 extension was forced on the Country Council also, I don’t know how well you know the City but the whole of
Ballyphane was built by the cork corporation in county council land,Douglas Village also suffered if it had been given to the City then I don’t think you would have the daily nightmare traffic bottlenecks .1980s Lotabeg a large corporation estate in Mayfield built on county council land,
My understanding is that they are giving up more. But giving up nothing isn't gonna cut it.
Most of the land the county council are offering on the south side is built on .so the same old story people’s kids having
to move to new county council areas and no room to grow and Develop the area farther (the City needs enough land to plan for this century and not giving the bear minimum amount of land the county council have offered ) the north side is mostly in the Ballvolane area an area I don’t know too well but I think the same problems will arise.

What are it's plans? I asked a few times, but nothing so far. What is there to be excited about? It'd be nice to know what they are planning.

They have a big county with a number of large county towns to Develop and 30 million a year from the city for 10 years ,they also won’t spend a penny in the areas the city will takeover .

Patrick 1959

As you can guess I’m not too good with my iPad, sorry for the way I jumbled up my answers, won’t make that mistake again.

Patrick 1959

To me the Boundary Extension is nothing with my city is bigger than yours or land grab . Cork city needs space to Develop and plan for this century,it also needs to become a global city and a counterbalance to Dublin (no its not small city syndrome but a genuine concern that we will be left behind like on a smaller scale Waterford V Galway) what cork city needs is space for 500,000 people by 2050 and to be known as a global city. The government will also have to help put the proper infrastructure ie motorway trains trams etc,in place ,with a bigger population cork city share of the national cake will not be the crumbs we are now getting

Roger Hassenforder

Cork city needs room to grow. Fact. It should have grown long ago.
But not at the expense of Cork.
See the difference? There is a lot more to Cork than just the city. Cork is a product of 1000s years of people, not 50 years of boundary issues.

The argument that Cork needs to be developed as a counter to Dublin is valid, but is it motivated by a "chip in the shoulder /"Cork is the real capital" auld guff, or a genuine interest in seeing Cork (all of it) as a prosperous, advanced, modern place to live? I'm in the latter camp. It won't happen with the two LAs at each other's throats. The Limericks and Waterfords will be the only winners in that. We saw government policy, it doesn't bode well.

The IDA and any attracted FDI don't care what/who the LA structure is, only that's there is economic (inc local charges, rates etc) stability, attractive tax rates, stable regulatory environment, and that the right type of employees can be attracted.

The County isn't some parasite sucking the life out of the poor little city, gleefully taking the money out of their pockets. Cork and the metro area is where people want to live. It's where companies want to locate. It's where infrastructure is. It's where both authorities have targeted, one by necessity, the other deliberately.
People don't want to live in a small down, on a crap road, 60miles from the city. Rural towns are dying because no one wants to live there. Cork is what it is. You can't have houses, people and industry without each other. One isn't an entitlement to anothers other's share of some pot.

Maybe the County were better at the economic development game? The City possibly good at other things? There were certainly areas of the city that are not as developed as they might be, or should be.This is a fact. The city isn't some high performance unit of local government deprived and prevented from delivering world class services because their bigger and wealthier neighbour is a parasite on them. "Dey're taking our people and our jobs and our rates" argument is inane.

But this nonsense that the City should be bestowed with all urban areas (presumably the areas contiguous to the city) and the County should concentrate on developing and/or maintains remote towns like Skibereen and Bantry is absurd, possibly driven by an urban snobbery and greed.
What type of industry? Who will want to live there? Who pays for it? The user? And if anyone truly believes the City will hand over 30 or 40million a year for 10 years is delusional!

snotboogie

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

But this nonsense that the City should be bestowed with all urban areas (presumably the areas contiguous to the city) and the County should concentrate on developing and/or maintains remote towns like Skibereen and Bantry is absurd, possibly driven by an urban snobbery and greed.
What type of industry? Who will want to live there? Who pays for it? The user? And if anyone truly believes the City will hand over 30 or 40million a year for 10 years is delusional!

Yes, imagine a city trying to encompass the urban areas contiguous to it, the snobbery!