Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

MrDerp

I have mixed feelings about this.

I’m glad that the boundary will be extended with room to grow. I’m also glad that concurrent suburbs will become part of the city, and that rates from city adjacent businesses will benefit the city they’re attached to.

However I worry about the inclusion of Ballincollig and Glanmire and I hope that green belt between the current city and these areas will be maintained with development being concentrated on rebalancing the city to the North West and developing the North Dockands - dunkettle areas along the rail line with additional commuter stops.

Will the new enlarged city council be able to resist the pressure to allow sprawling semi Ds within its new extended boundaries? Will the docklands stay mothballed while developers push to extend Rochestown, Donnybrook, Frankfield and Leghanamore, with only council development north of Blackpool?

There’s a real danger of a free for all to exacorbate south side traffic issues. Let’s hope cool heads prevail for the next 25 years of development

D'Agger

The main thing I personally want to see from this is improvement of transport services. I drive daily to Little island for work because attempting to commute via public transport would see me walking roughly 5k per day for a bus and a train to work.

It won't happen overnight but there's a strong case for light rail servicing Ballincollig, CIT, UCC, Mahon point and Little Island. If the city is going to be this big, then the services need to cater to it.

Also, does this mean we'll see city bus services potentially servicing Little Island, Glanmire etc?

There's a lot of planning to be done and as MrDerp said above me here - let's hope cool heads prevail with regard to how the next 25 years of development are planned.

I'm only thinking of public transport and my heads spinning.

snotboogie

D'Agger wrote: »

The main thing I personally want to see from this is improvement of transport services. I drive daily to Little island for work because attempting to commute via public transport would see me walking roughly 5k per day for a bus and a train to work.

It won't happen overnight but there's a strong case for light rail servicing Ballincollig, CIT, UCC, Mahon point and Little Island. If the city is going to be this big, then the services need to cater to it.

Also, does this mean we'll see city bus services potentially servicing Little Island, Glanmire etc?

There's a lot of planning to be done and as MrDerp said above me here - let's hope cool heads prevail with regard to how the next 25 years of development are planned.

I'm only thinking of public transport and my heads spinning.

Long term plan is a BRT from Ovens to Carrigtohill but needs increased density in the docklands before it will be considered.

namloc1980

D'Agger wrote: »

It won't happen overnight but there's a strong case for light rail servicing Ballincollig, CIT, UCC, Mahon point and Little Island. If the city is going to be this big, then the services need to cater to it.

Also, does this mean we'll see city bus services potentially servicing Little Island, Glanmire etc?

How would you get light rail from Mahon to Little island? Light rail in Cork is realistically 20+ years away at least. It simply isn't on the transport agenda outside of Dublin.

The outer suburbs are are already included in the Cork city bus area



City bus fares apply to everywhere in the red zone.

Reputable Rog

The boundary extension appears to have been agreed, seems to me that the city have bought a pig in a poke.

boardsuser1

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The boundary extension appears to have been agreed, seems to me that the city have bought a pig in a poke.

How long will the city to county payments go on?

EnzoScifo

Looking at the proposal, No Dell/EMC, Little Island, Carraigtwohill or Monard in the City. County would be crazy not to agree this. A gift for them.

Reputable Rog

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

How long will the city to county payments go on?

Ten years probably, lots more territory but not nearly enough rates to pay for it.
I can see the City returning for another bite in a few years.

namloc1980

EnzoScifo wrote: »

Looking at the proposal, No Dell/EMC, Little Island, Carraigtwohill or Monard in the City. County would be crazy not to agree this. A gift for them.

With the exception of the airport the city is gaining all the residential areas that cost money to maintain, while the county retains all those lovely high rates areas. Wonder who negotiated this for the city?

EnzoScifo

namloc1980 wrote: »

With the exception of the airport the city is gaining all the residential areas that cost money to maintain, while the county retains all those lovely high rates areas. Wonder who negotiated this for the city?

Theresa May by the looks of it!

Roger Hassenforder

according to Eoin English on twitter

Outkast_IRE

Ridiculous really, boundary extends to the far end of ballincollig to the west but it stops short of little island which is only a few kms out of the city centre. Same to be said for monkstown, ringaskiddy

rebs23

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Ridiculous really, boundary extends to the far end of ballincollig to the west but it stops short of little island which is only a few kms out of the city centre. Same to be said for monkstown, ringaskiddy

Boundary doesn't go half far enough in incorporating the overall Cork City urban area but it is a compromise and let's move on and get it signed into law by the Minister.

boardsuser1

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Ridiculous really, boundary extends to the far end of ballincollig to the west but it stops short of little island which is only a few kms out of the city centre. Same to be said for monkstown, ringaskiddy

Stops just short of Taking in EMC isn’t it?

Reputable Rog

rebs23 wrote: »

Boundary doesn't go half far enough in incorporating the overall Cork City urban area but it is a compromise and let's move on and get it signed into law by the Minister.

Takes in all of the Cork Urban Area. The City are going to struggle with this new area.
Sleepwalking into a merger.

snotboogie

"The answer to where the city boundary should be is represented in commuting flows," he said.

"Census commuting patterns indicate that people are predominantly travelling from Douglas, Ballincollig, Glanmire, Midleton, Passage, Rochestown and Carrigaline to workplaces in the harbour, Little Island and the existing city area on a daily basis.

"The city-regional authority should be governing these resident and workplace areas and working on the integration of existing urban landscape.

"In this sense, a focus on better public infrastructure, housing provision and services should be towards the existing city area and the harbour. It does not make sense to be directing the city in a north-west direction as the majority of work opportunities are on the east and south side of the city."

Dr Crowley said the move will separate 'work locations from living locations' and 'will spread public services too thinly' by increasing commuting times and residential sprawl.

"As I presently see it, the infrastructure problems are between existing city areas, the Jack Lynch tunnel, Little Island and the harbour area," he said.

"There is a shortage of houses where there are presently employment opportunities. How does the boundary change have any positive impact on solving these problems?"

The UCC economist said that local interest has dominated the debate so far to the detriment of the region.

"It appears to me that the parochial pump vested interests are at an all-time crisis level in Cork and it is acting as a significant barrier to growth propsects in the city-region. Local interest groups, local politicians and Nimbyism in the east and south of the city and the harbour area have pushed development in a north-west direction which is actually undermining Cork's prospects," he said.

"Facing up to this problem is the ultimate challenge for local government and it is faltering terribly in this regard."

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/UCC-economist-criticises-boundary-proposals-359d6029-94e8-4a9b-8dd1-6fcd852e8bfb-ds

Roger Hassenforder

Just when we thought it was all over:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Glanmire-Inniscarra-Cork-Airport-Monard-and-Hop-Island-still-up-for-grabs-in-boundary-debate-395fe50a-f201-408d-bd59-8eff0597dc72-ds

boardsuser1

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Just when we thought it was all over:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Glanmire-Inniscarra-Cork-Airport-Monard-and-Hop-Island-still-up-for-grabs-in-boundary-debate-395fe50a-f201-408d-bd59-8eff0597dc72-ds

If the county council don't shut their mouth's quickly they will lose Little Island and Carrigtwohill as well if Eoghan Murphy makes the final call.

D'Agger

Operating off two maps FFS :rolleyes:

snotboogie

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Just when we thought it was all over:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Glanmire-Inniscarra-Cork-Airport-Monard-and-Hop-Island-still-up-for-grabs-in-boundary-debate-395fe50a-f201-408d-bd59-8eff0597dc72-ds

If the county council don't shut their mouth's quickly they will lose Little Island and Carrigtwohill as well if Eoghan Murphy makes the final call.

Councils still at odds over Cork boundary
Cork county councillors ask to see legal advice on city boundary plan
It's an absolute joke. I saw a great analysis by a UCC economist recently which i thought summed it up well:

Dr Frank Crowley, a lecturer in economics at Cork Business School in UCC, said that the expansion north-west from the city centre is focusing on the wrong areas.
He said that a concentration around the harbour, including areas like Carrigaline and Passage, would make more sense than what is on the table.

"The answer to where the city boundary should be is represented in commuting flows," he said.

"Census commuting patterns indicate that people are predominantly travelling from Douglas, Ballincollig, Glanmire, Midleton, Passage, Rochestown and Carrigaline to workplaces in the harbour, Little Island and the existing city area on a daily basis.

"The city-regional authority should be governing these resident and workplace areas and working on the integration of existing urban landscape.

"In this sense, a focus on better public infrastructure, housing provision and services should be towards the existing city area and the harbour. It does not make sense to be directing the city in a north-west direction as the majority of work opportunities are on the east and south side of the city."

Dr Crowley said the move will separate 'work locations from living locations' and 'will spread public services too thinly' by increasing commuting times and residential sprawl.

"As I presently see it, the infrastructure problems are between existing city areas, the Jack Lynch tunnel, Little Island and the harbour area," he said.

"There is a shortage of houses where there are presently employment opportunities. How does the boundary change have any positive impact on solving these problems?"

The UCC economist said that local interest has dominated the debate so far to the detriment of the region.

"It appears to me that the parochial pump vested interests are at an all-time crisis level in Cork and it is acting as a significant barrier to growth propsects in the city-region. Local interest groups, local politicians and Nimbyism in the east and south of the city and the harbour area have pushed development in a north-west direction which is actually undermining Cork's prospects," he said.

"Facing up to this problem is the ultimate challenge for local government and it is faltering terribly in this regard."

[font=Roboto, sans-serif]UCC economist criticises boundary proposals[/font]

boardsuser1

D'Agger wrote: »

Operating off two maps FFS :rolleyes:

You'd wonder is it monkey's making these decisions.

fonzy951

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

If the county council don't shut their mouth's quickly they will lose Little Island and Carrigtwohill as well if Eoghan Murphy makes the final call.

Little Island should be part of the city its basically already joined up to it. The county keeping Little Island just for rates is an extremely poor planning decision. Would make a lot more sense if the city took over the running of this area but shared rates with the county etc.

FFS Mackinnon is an expert in this area and his report should implemented in full with the county being funded for the loss of rates. The county councillors haven't a clue on long term planning.

boardsuser1

fonzy951 wrote: »

FFS Mackinnon is an expert in this area and his report should implemented in full with the county being funded for the loss of rates. The county councillors haven't a clue on long term planning.

I'd tend to go with this to be honest.

mire

Cabinet has approved the implementation group’s report on the Mackinnon review of local government arrangements in Cork. I.E The deal brokered last week.

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

Councils still at odds over Cork boundary
Cork county councillors ask to see legal advice on city boundary plan
It's an absolute joke. I saw a great analysis by a UCC economist recently which i thought summed it up well:



[font=Roboto, sans-serif]UCC economist criticises boundary proposals[/font]

Hi Frank!

flaneur

I think the big loser in this is Carrigaline, even though they probably think that it's great to stay in the county.
All the focus now will be on developing Ballincollig and the Blarney-Tower area in terms of public transport projects and all of that, while Carrigaline's going to remain a quasi-connected county town that is out on its own in the sense that it's not part of "West Cork" or rural Cork really at all.

In my head, Carriagline's very much part of the southern suburbs, it just has a very poor quality road linking it and abysmal public transport.

I would have thought some kind of City and Harbour authority would have made a hell of a lot more sense than what's been setup. But it's still better than the tiny city and generic county council approach that we currently have.

Running the City and the Harbour as two separate things makes little sense to me as the City is part of the Harbour and the harbour's main historical reason for being developed at all is the City as a trading hub.

We also massively underutilise the harbour as an amenity and living space really too. It could be a fantastic resource, as similar harbours are in other cities around the world. Instead, the city seems to be cut off from it to a large degree.

I'd agree though, petty, local politics, council empire building and ideas that they somehow 'own' the rates as if they're running a business rather than a public service are what will drive this and we'll end up with a pointless outcome with no vision at all.

The reality of this is that the rates will end up being used to fund local services in a balanced way anyway, regardless of the outcome. I find the notion that two local authorities are behaving like as if they're private enterprises is a bit bizarre. They're supposed to be managing rural and urban areas to the best of their ability, not having a turf war over boundaries.

To the average citizen, what matters is that local services can be delivered in a transparent way and that there's a good degree of proper democracy and autonomous decision making at a city or county level.

For a big (by Irish standards) urban area like Cork, you need a proper city government. However, without a change to how we do local government, I don't think there's really going to be any change other than the logos on your bins (oh.. wait, no sorry they don't do those anymore, so just the logos letter heads.)

Also I am getting a bit annoyed at the threats of use of expensive legal advice. This money is being wasted from very limited funds! The whole process should be resolved without any need for legal advice!!

Outkast_IRE

fonzy951 wrote: »

Little Island should be part of the city its basically already joined up to it. The county keeping Little Island just for rates is an extremely poor planning decision. Would make a lot more sense if the city took over the running of this area but shared rates with the county etc.

FFS Mackinnon is an expert in this area and his report should implemented in full with the county being funded for the loss of rates. The county councillors haven't a clue on long term planning.

Exactly - Little island with i think the estimate is now 10,000 working on the island and you cannot safely cycle from the city a few km away - you must at some point go along a dual carrigeway alongside cars no matter what way you look at it............ thats planning for ya !

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think the City Council should seek assurances from the County Council that they won't develop any areas just outside wherever the new boundary ends up. The City doesn't need more spread and disjointed planning.

D'Agger

It's astonishing that Little Island isn't in the city, it fúcking reeks actually.

As was mentioned earlier, two public entities acting as private businesses, I wonder is it a case of the county holding on for rates or the City being too meek to force the issue. Will there be any discussions as per how they came to agree on the extension instead of the usual lines that'll be handed out about 'I feel this is a step forward in the development of....'

They've extended the city boundaries, but not in a logical fashion imo.

boardsuser1

Time to implement the original recommendations as they are messing around too much now.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/County-Council-reject-boundary-extension-deal-after-marathon-talks-2a18b631-7a23-4dca-ac37-39b07c7b6c5f-ds