Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

snotboogie

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Is that the third time you've quoted the UCC guy in about 20 posts?

City-regional authority has another name. Like the one in Waterford and Limerick.

Second time, and it's the second time you have deflected it by weird ad hominems against me

Patrick 1959

Water John wrote: »

I think Patrick wants to live in the city, in a house in Inniscarra.

50 years ago Mahon was the Inniscarra of today, get real this plan is for the next 50 years plus.

Roger Hassenforder

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Cork-is-driving-force-behind-the-Munster-labour-market-15f23438-a655-4163-bd0a-7608ae275870-ds

The data also reinforced the view that rural Ireland is being left behind with large swathes of the country now being sucked into cities and urban areas for work.

"But sure develop Youghal and Kanturk, with money from the money fairies, just as long as we get those delicious rates from LI into the city. We can pay for more social housing in the City , and so we can sprawl grow north south and east with loads of housing estates to have some population number where some magic starts to happen, lwith fcuk all vision. Weve been **** at what we have had to work with, but sure give us more to fcuk up".

That feckin merger would be better for Cork than this expansion. Dont know what they think they can do in the creche, but can see why theyre fighting it.

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Is that the third time you've quoted the UCC guy in about 20 posts?

City-regional authority has another name. Like the one in Waterford and Limerick.

Second time, and it's the second time you have deflected it by weird ad hominems against me

True or false, you keep quoting this UCC chap? Whats the weird ad hominen? Im not asking are you a shill, im presuming yiure here in good faith like the rest of us.

(An ad hominem would be if i called you a muppet. I dont think you are, and youre entitled to your opinion).

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think Cork County Council have behaved disgracefully through this whole process. They have acted like complete dirtbags.

The whole 'keep Ballincollig county' Facebook campaign is the biggest load of fake news I've ever seen.

Talk of a 'land grab' when Cork County is literally the biggest council area in the whole country, and Cork City is the smallest area in the country is absolute nonsense talk.

The talk of an amalgamation of the two councils to create a 'super council' was another bullsh1t suggestion.

The County Council speaking about legal threats if they don't get their way. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I agree with the poster on the previous page of this thread. The City Council have been meek as hell in negotiating this whole thing. Let the decision be made on a national level. International best practice dictates that a large boundary extension is necessary, and that's the bottom line.

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cork City is not a net contributor to the state. Its not even self financing.

Cork is a net contributor to the state. I'm not talking about city councils

At least youre looking at Cork in its entirety! Break down revenue big difference between the LAs.

snotboogie

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

At least youre looking at Cork in its entirety! Break down revenue big difference between the LAs.

You do know that when you say Dublin is supporting the rest of the country, they are doing it via the tax take by the state in Dublin. DCC rates are not funding the state. I don't even know if a breakdown of tax take between Cork City and County is available since it has nothing to do with the local councils.

Reputable Rog

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

The urban sprawl around cork city has been caused by cork county council . I put this down to no boundary extension in the last 50 years and 2 Councils with different agendas. Thanks to the County Council We are faced with a population on the county side of boundary larger then the city itself .


Mackinnon report would plan for all major urban and industries to be built in side this new boundary . Enough land to plan for housing as close to industry or railway lines as possible. Areas like Ballincoig would most likely see some sort of tram system. Cork county council would than have to stop any large scale urbanization on the new boundary. This plan should see cork city with enough space to grow for the next 50 years.

Have you read MacKinnon? The MacKinnon report is just a moniker for the Dauphines ambition for Cork and to try and save his seat in South Central.
Want to know why Passage or Carrigaline or Ringaskiddy aren't included, ask Little Mickey, who would wanted to keep his seperate power base from Big Mickey.
Even the reduced MacKinnon is a massive undertaking and will require a raft of changes on the City including policies on dealing with rural housing control, agricultural compliance and moving the entire council to an area based system.
On top of this they will need 350 extra staff and pay €19 million p/a to the county ( which they don't have and will more than likely have to issue a bond to pay these monies further increasing their debt) where is this magic money going to come from?

mire

Cork City council and Cork County council last week issued a joint statement, signed by the chief executives and the respective mayors, in support of a deal. On this basis, Cabinet approved the deal and recommended legislative steps. I'm not sure what the implications of the county council's latest vote on this is, but it is a strange move. It would appear to me that they are suggesting that the only game in town is the minuscule extension the originally offered; this is not a very stable position from which to try to turn back the clock. It puts the county's chief executive in a very difficult position too.

What it suggests probably more than most is that the task of reforming local government in cork should not be the responsibility of the two local authorities Who are subject to the reform being progressed . The government's policy on local government reform in cork has been clear - If the two local authorities cannot agree a solution By the end of 2017, a solution would be imposed by government.

Considering that the ridiculous idea of a merger is no longer being countenanced, and that the department of the environment's attempts to squeeze this through using Alf Smiddy has been exposed, some form of substantial boundary extension appears to be the only game in town. I thought that the deal reached last week (And approved by government), whilst far from optimal, was a good political compromise because both local authorities could claim that each 'Achieved something'. The city got space which the county retained rates.

It's difficult to see the government rolling back and allowing this to be delayed past the 2019 elections. That would mean another five years before the next boundary reform could be constituted. In any case, I think the council's decision will simply change the legislative route rather than the fundamentals of the shape of the decision.

Patrick 1959

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Have you read MacKinnon? The MacKinnon report is just a moniker for the Dauphines ambition for Cork and to try and save his seat in South Central.
Want to know why Passage or Carrigaline or Ringaskiddy aren't included, ask Little Mickey, who would wanted to keep his seperate power base from Big Mickey.
Even the reduced MacKinnon is a massive undertaking and will require a raft of changes on the City including policies on dealing with rural housing control, agricultural compliance and moving the entire council to an area based system.
On top of this they will need 350 extra staff and pay €19 million p/a to the county ( which they don't have and will more than likely have to issue a bond to pay these monies further increasing their debt) where is this magic money going to come from?

Conspiracy theories , Passage Carrigaline should be included in the report .I think that’s down more to Simon Coveney then the 2 meholes . Look people like you are great at showing up problems but can never give us solutions . So tell us your plan to sort this mess out .

Reputable Rog

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Conspiracy theories , Passage Carrigaline should be included in the report .I think that’s down more to Simon Coveney then the 2 meholes . Look people like you are great at showing up problems but can never give us solutions . So tell us your plan to sort this mess out .

Merger, with a Metropolitan City of Cork, City gets the room it needs, no rates loss to anyone and no compo payable.

Water John

Major feed ins to the city, on the N71, N22,N20, M8 and N 24. How far out should the city go along these prongs?
Bandon, Macrrom Mallow, Mitchelstown and Midelton into the city LA.

Patrick 1959

Water John wrote: »

Major feed ins to the city, on the N71, N22,N20, M8 and N 24. How far out should the city go along these prongs?
Bandon, Macrrom Mallow, Mitchelstown and Midelton into the city LA.

Get with the program water John , we’re talking railway lines here Blarney, Carrigtwohill for the most part, tram lines for South and East City to build 10/ 15 years down the line. Motorways also have apart to play but Exaggeration using ,Mitchelstown , Macroom etc just shows your argument is built on sand . As I said before a Boundary of 7to 9 miles radius of Cork City would be large enough for 50 years plus .

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

Cork City council and Cork County council last week issued a joint statement, signed by the chief executives and the respective mayors, in support of a deal. On this basis, Cabinet approved the deal and recommended legislative steps. I'm not sure what the implications of the county council's latest vote on this is, but it is a strange move. It would appear to me that they are suggesting that the only game in town is the minuscule extension the originally offered; this is not a very stable position from which to try to turn back the clock. It puts the county's chief executive in a very difficult position too.

What it suggests probably more than most is that the task of reforming local government in cork should not be the responsibility of the two local authorities Who are subject to the reform being progressed . The government's policy on local government reform in cork has been clear - If the two local authorities cannot agree a solution By the end of 2017, a solution would be imposed by government.

Considering that the ridiculous idea of a merger is no longer being countenanced, and that the department of the environment's attempts to squeeze this through using Alf Smiddy has been exposed, some form of substantial boundary extension appears to be the only game in town. I thought that the deal reached last week (And approved by government), whilst far from optimal, was a good political compromise because both local authorities could claim that each 'Achieved something'. The city got space which the county retained rates.

It's difficult to see the government rolling back and allowing this to be delayed past the 2019 elections. That would mean another five years before the next boundary reform could be constituted. In any case, I think the council's decision will simply change the legislative route rather than the fundamentals of the shape of the decision.

Are we going to see Irish rural politicians politicking...
With the County Blueshirts and Soldiers of Destiny Cllrs voting to reject the IOG report which has been accepted by "cabinet" , is E Murphy in for some schooling from the older party hacks, worried about other similar urban expansions.
Watching with particular interest is Galway, but also Meath I reckon.

I dont know what the County have up their sleeve, or think they can do. Are they playing for time hoping the government will fall before having time to enact legislation? I wouldnt be surprised if the County CE knew about this Plan B all along.

Murphy was too hasty I think, and has certainly ruffled a few feathers.

Water John

Those tramlines will not happen in a city the size of Cork.
I presume you are able to make cogent arguments, without throwing in the assachaans. They tell us more about you, than me.

Reputable Rog

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Are we going to see Irish rural politicians politicking...
With the County Blueshirts and Soldiers of Destiny Cllrs voting to reject the IOG report which has been accepted by "cabinet" , is E Murphy in for some schooling from the older party hacks, worried about other similar urban expansions.
Watching with particular interest is Galway, but also Meath I reckon.

I dont know what the County have up their sleeve, or think they can do. Are they playing for time hoping the government will fall before having time to enact legislation? I wouldnt be surprised if the County CE knew about this Plan B all along.

Murphy was too hasty I think, and has certainly ruffled a few feathers.

I think the County were fighting a losing battle since Le Dauphine and Mehole got involved abs the current proposal whilst somewhat unpalatable is a lot better than MacKinnon.
I think ultimately it will be a merger in time, the City are facing into very difficult territory particularly on the financial front and I can't see the government being willing to underwrite the compo forever as it will ultimately be added on to the National Debt.
This whole debacle is being watched closely in Limerick where the case for an extension into Clare and probably Tipperary is raising its head once more, even after a merger.

flaneur

To be quite honest I would abolish most of the county councils and create regional authorities and more powerful cities / metropolitan councils and recreate a system of mayor led town councils.

The biggest problem in Ireland is weak, amorphous, local government that has little or no meaning to most of us most of the time.

That’s why TDs are the first port of call for local issues - the Dail basically behaves like the way a city / county council does with TDs behaving as super councilors instead of national legislature members.

The structure is based on ancient history and old aristocracy amongst other things.

It's a broken system that's become wedded with GAA intercounty battles.

Also there's no reason why you couldn't reform the administrative counties and keep the GAA and other use of historical counties.

Patrick 1959

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Merger, with a Metropolitan City of Cork, City gets the room it needs, no rates loss to anyone and no compo payable.

cork county is about half the size of Northern Ireland It 3 hours to drive across cork county (Youghal to mizen ) problems like community needs transport fisheries agriculture housing major urban infrastructure are so diverse in this huge country that one council just would not work, if it did Dublin would have one council. A metropolitan area say from Middleton Mallow Ringaskiddy crosshaven Macroom would have a population of well over 350,000 people and most likely see the most spending. Outside this area with the least number of Councilers would be the biggest loosers. A smaller city area 7to 9 miles radius of cork city would mean new housing closer to industrial areas and public transport.

Patrick 1959

Water John wrote: »

Those tramlines will not happen in a city the size of Cork.
I presume you are able to make cogent arguments, without throwing in the assachaans. They tell us more about you, than me.

Size of cork city now 120,000 ,next year with the limited boundary extension 220,000 10 to 15 years 300,000 plus, yes we will get the trams lines, also remember this extension will be looked at again in 10 /15 years the city I think will get the full 7 /9 miles radius boundary extension .

Reputable Rog

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

cork county is about half the size of Northern Ireland It 3 hours to drive across cork county (Youghal to mizen ) problems like community needs transport fisheries agriculture housing major urban infrastructure are so diverse in this huge country that one council just would not work, if it did Dublin would have one council. A metropolitan area say from Middleton Mallow Ringaskiddy crosshaven Macroom would have a population of well over 350,000 people and most likely see the most spending. Outside this area with the least number of Councilers would be the biggest loosers. A smaller city area 7to 9 miles radius of cork city would mean new housing closer to industrial areas and public transport.

Make Cork an autonomous region French style with an elected mayor. Everything goes into the same pot, rates wise and everyone's kept sweet.
Its ironic that these UCC experts during the recent downturn wanted one local authority for the whole of Munster and now they object to a unitary authority for Cork.

flaneur

France (and actually most or the world) has extremely strong city and town councils and mayors with huge powers even in villages.

What was being proposed in Cork was nothing like what France has and would have bizarrely (by international standards) ended up no dedicated urban local government.

The removal of town councils here was an absolute disgrace in my opinion. Towns need town hall government!

We have extremely weak and unaccountable local government and what was being proposed would have just reinforced that!

Roger Hassenforder

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

cork county is about half the size of Northern Ireland It 3 hours to drive across cork county (Youghal to mizen ) problems like community needs transport fisheries agriculture housing major urban infrastructure are so diverse in this huge country that one council just would not work, if it did Dublin would have one council. A metropolitan area say from Middleton Mallow Ringaskiddy crosshaven Macroom would have a population of well over 350,000 people and most likely see the most spending. Outside this area with the least number of Councilers would be the biggest loosers. A smaller city area 7to 9 miles radius of cork city would mean new housing closer to industrial areas and public transport.

when you think of "Cork", what do you think of? Is this the "us" you referred to earlier?
what is it you'd like for the Cork you picture, and what of the rest? Is this the "them"?

The largest municipal district in the County has 80,000 souls. They have 8 of them in the County. Another one (albeit of 120,000 more) probably wouldnt make much of a difference. Housing might be a headache, but other than that, be grand. No major roads, no water services to worry about. Planing? be better to have a joint authority. Economic development? Ditto. A proper regional authority.

mire

Not sure if the council have overplayed their hands on this one tbh. I think it's gone way past local politicking tbh. I saying this based on the view that there appears to be an appetite in government to sort this. It's not an election issue.

The idea of a merger is gone and rightly so. It's a ridiculous idea, having a single local government unit for what will be approximately 800,000 people in twenty years. It's been dismissed out of hand. I'm not aware of any city in Europe of Cork's size that is run as a municipal district with no executive independence. It would be a bizarre thing to do,and this was the conclusion of the expert group. The only people supporting the merger concept are county councilors and Alf smiddy.

Cork needs a boundary extension. That was accepted last week, but both local authorities, the cabinet and the IoG group. Time to move on, for the sake of Cork.

mire

Not sure if the council have overplayed their hands on this one tbh. I think it's gone way past local politicking. I saying this based on the view that there appears to be an appetite in government to sort this. It's not an election issue.

The idea of a merger is gone and rightly so. It's a ridiculous idea, having a single local government unit for what will be approximately 800,000 people in twenty years. It's been dismissed out of hand. I'm not aware of any city in Europe of Cork's size that is run as a municipal district with no executive independence. It would be a bizarre thing to do,and this was the conclusion of the expert group. The only people supporting the merger concept are county councilors and Alf smiddy.

Cork needs a boundary extension. That was accepted last week, by both local authorities, the cabinet and the IoG group. Time to move on, for the sake of Cork.

Patrick 1959

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

when you think of "Cork", what do you think of? Is this the "us" you referred to earlier?
what is it you'd like for the Cork you picture, and what of the rest? Is this the "them"?

The largest municipal district in the County has 80,000 souls. They have 8 of them in the County. Another one (albeit of 120,000 more) probably wouldnt make much of a difference. Housing might be a headache, but other than that, be grand. No major roads, no water services to worry about. Planing? be better to have a joint authority. Economic development? Ditto. A proper regional authority.

The “us” is the people living in the new extended city. I meant no offense . I like to see a city of 9 miles radius (complete circle from St Patrick St) people living as close to there place of work that is possible, or the transport ie train tram bus or motorway to get them there . All Under 1 council or Mayor with real power. This I honestly believe would build apowerhouse or counterbalance to the Dublin area. The wealth created in this area would I believe filter out to the rest of the county.The reference to “them” people outside the new boundary, again no offense went.

opus

Water John wrote: »

Those tramlines will not happen in a city the size of Cork.
I presume you are able to make cogent arguments, without throwing in the assachaans. They tell us more about you, than me.

Probably not But just for comparison, here's the tram system in a small city in Germany (Jena with a population of ~110k) that I visit regularly & use a fair bit. Linked with the local bus system & you can buy your tickets via an app on the phone.



The double red line is the rail system, there are five different train stations in the town!

Water John

Would love such integrated ideas. That is Germany. Look how long Dublin is taking to make some effort at integrated system.

Patrick, perhaps you would put up a map with your 9 mile/14.5km radius option up for study?

Patrick 1959

Water John wrote: »

Would love such integrated ideas. That is Germany. Look how long Dublin is taking to make some effort at integrated system.

Patrick, perhaps you would put up a map with your 9 mile/14.5km radius option up for study?

Sorry haven’t got one . But I would bet you a pound to a penny they are been worked on or completed. You should stop been so negative. Why is a tram system so unrealistic to you . The city had them 100 years ago.

Reputable Rog

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Sorry haven’t got one . But I would bet you a pound to a penny they are been worked on or completed. You should stop been so negative. Why is a tram system so unrealistic to you . The city had them 100 years ago.

100 years ago Murphy's and Beamish went head as the most popular stouts in Cork, then the city coopers went on strike and Guinness snuck in and the rest is history, the trams are not coming back and Guinness will not relinquish top spot.
The best Cork can hope for is the BRT.

Water John

Well I couldn't do the map for here but my trusty slide rule says the boundary for Cork City you want, takes in, Carrigaline, Five Mile Bridge, Ballinhassig, Half Way, Farran, Grenagh, Watergrasshill, Carrigtohill and Cobh.
65.5 sq ms/165 sq km.

That size of city should have a pop of nearly 2 Million and would definitely require a rail system.