Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Patrick 1959

Reputable Rog wrote: »

100 years ago Murphy's and Beamish went head as the most popular stouts in Cork, then the city coopers went on strike and Guinness snuck in and the rest is history, the trams are not coming back and Guinness will not relinquish top spot.
The best Cork can hope for is the BRT.

Love to know how you definitive know this ? Was it Arthur G, or Big Ian with his never, never, never, told you . You seem very negative towards cork city.

Patrick 1959

Water John wrote: »

Well I couldn't do the map for here but my trusty slide rule says the boundary for Cork City you want, takes in, Carrigaline, Five Mile Bridge, Ballinhassig, Half Way, Farran, Grenagh, Watergrasshill, Carrigtohill and Cobh.
65.5 sq ms/165 sq km.

That size of city should have a pop of nearly 2 Million and would definitely require a rail system.[/QUOT

A lot smaller then the metropolitan area some here are looking for. Take out Farran Grenagh and Watergrasshill and you got it, see how easy that was all without a trusty slide rule .

Roger Hassenforder

Water John wrote: »

Would love such integrated ideas. That is Germany. Look how long Dublin is taking to make some effort at integrated system.

Patrick, perhaps you would put up a map with your 9 mile/14.5km radius option up for study?

6 fcukin lines!
Dublin has only got three, and one not going great yet.
Wouldnt it be great though.
The Germans- theyre hard to beat

Reputable Rog

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Love to know how you definitive know this ? Was it Arthur G, or Big Ian with his never, never, never, told you . You seem very negative towards cork city.

Very positive towards it,lived there for years, loved it,great times. Doesn't mean it doesn't have problems though.
The Guinness story I got from the History of Beamish and Crawford, a rather excellent book which gives a great insight into Cork as a city as well as the brewery.

namloc1980

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Sorry haven’t got one . But I would bet you a pound to a penny they are been worked on or completed. You should stop been so negative. Why is a tram system so unrealistic to you . The city had them 100 years ago.

It's completely unrealistic because trams and light rail does not in any way form part of transport policy in Ireland outside of Dublin. Government simply won't fund it. The best we could hope for is a single BRT line and even that's probably 10+ years away at best.

Patrick 1959

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's completely unrealistic because trams and light rail does not in any way form part of transport policy in Ireland outside of Dublin. Government simply won't fund it. The best we could hope for is a single BRT line and even that's probably 10+ years away at best.

I’m old enough to rember the luts plan published in 1980, cork calling for a tunnel to be built , no was the answer from the government. Maybe a bridge they told us in the middle 80’s no money for a tunnel . It was completed in 1998 or 99 . Ireland in the 1980’s and early 90’s was a poor country with huge unemployment and smaller population . I do believe a tram system will be build or partly built by 2033. 15 years .

namloc1980

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

I’m old enough to rember the luts plan published in 1980, cork calling for a tunnel to be built , no was the answer from the government. Maybe a bridge they told us in the middle 80’s no money for a tunnel . It was completed in 1998 or 99 . Ireland in the 1980’s and early 90’s was a poor country with huge unemployment and smaller population . I do believe a tram system will be build or partly built by 2033. 15 years .

Not a hope. It took 13 years to build a link between the two Luas lines in Dublin. It was well acknowledged that Cork needed a downriver crossing by all quarters back in the 80s and 90s. There is no such policy for light rail in Cork or anywhere outside of Dublin. I would say maybe, maybe we might get some moves towards it by the 2040s/2050s.....maybe.

JupiterKid

An east-west dedicated busway is definitely needed in Cork. Running from Mahon Point to Ballincollig via the City Centre.

They’re building a busway system in Belfast and it’s more than twice the size of Cork.

On the issue of the boundary extension, I think this latest proposal is a sensible and good compromise.

Patrick 1959

Is the reason for not building the tram line in the next 15 years .1 The then cork city population would not warrant a tram system . 2 The government won’t pay for it . How much are we talking about here ?

namloc1980

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Is the reason for not building the tram line in the next 15 years .1 The then cork city population would not warrant a tram system . 2 The government won’t pay for it . How much are we talking about here ?

The recently opened Luas line extension cost €368m for about 5.5km or c.€65m per kilometre. In Cork for a line going from Ballincollig to Mahon it would be about 15km. That would cost over €1bn. The feasibility study in 2010 also came in with a cost of c.€1bn. There isn't a hope the government would spend that kind of money of a public transport project in Cork. No chance.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

The recently opened Luas line extension cost €368m for about 5.5km or c.€65m per kilometre. In Cork for a line going from Ballincollig to Mahon it would be about 15km. That would cost over €1bn. The feasibility study in 2010 also came in with a cost of c.€1bn. There isn't a hope the government would spend that kind of money of a public transport project in Cork. No chance.

you're probably correct. i do think however that a limited tram service may be viable, but it would depend on serious densification.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

you're probably correct. i do think however that a limited tram service may be viable, but it would depend on serious densification.

Which MacKinnon will not achieve.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

you're probably correct. i do think however that a limited tram service may be viable, but it would depend on serious densification.

Unfortunately that's the chicken and egg situation that takes precedence in transport policy in Ireland. We'll, we can't build X because Y hasn't been built yet. In reality what should happen is high quality transport should be built side by side with increasing residential density. Provision should be put in now in the Docklands for a BRT capable of upgrading to LRT. Of course that won't happen. Waiting until you have the necessary population causes significant disruption during construction and people have made alternative transportation arrangements by then, mostly by car, and behaviours become hard to change.

snotboogie

Cork city rules out more talks with county on border
However, Sinn Féin councillor and former lord mayor Chris O’Leary said that, following the county’s decision to reject the compromise extension, the time has come for the full Mackinnon boundary extension to be implemented.
A spokesman for City Hall pointed out that the IOG report has already been approved by the Government and it is not open to the city council to revisit the government’s decision.“The only matter at issue is agreement of the mechanism for Government to implement the extension — ministerial order or primary legislation,” he said.Lord Mayor and Fianna Fáil councillor Tony Fitzgerald has indicated that he will recommend to city councillors tonight that they agree to the minister’s request for agreement on the IOG.
The last boundary extension was in 1965. Although smaller that the proposed Mackinnon extension, the IOG compromise boundary would increase the city’s population from around 125,000, according to the 2016 Census, to just below 210,000, to include almost 70% of the population of the Metropolitan Cork region.

AugustusMinimus

Reputable Rog wrote: »

mire wrote: »

you're probably correct. i do think however that a limited tram service may be viable, but it would depend on serious densification.

Which MacKinnon will not achieve.

It will stop urban sprawl as it’s the county council who are giving the go ahead for developments right on the city border.

Put the border out further and they will be less incluned to do so.

The city council is not the one giving planning permission for sprawling housing estates served by little infrastructure.

mire

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It will stop urban sprawl as it’s the county council who are giving the go ahead for developments right on the city border.

Put the border out further and they will be less incluned to do so.

The city council is not the one giving planning permission for sprawling housing estates served by little infrastructure.

In my opinion, the location of the boundary would have no impact on densification or suburban sprawl. It depends on the philosophy of whatever local authority is in charge of the edge of the city built up area.
There is a slightly worrying view that the boundary extension is being advocated as a way to allow the city to grow – in other words fill up all the green space. That would be a disaster. In my view, that is a real prospect whether or not there is a boundary extension. I could see Cork City council facilitating urban sprawl, an equally I can see Cork County council doing the same. The proposed strategic land reserves being proposed by Cork County council represent a huge encroachments into the green belt. If the development of Shannon park is anything to go by this is a real worry. However, I’m not 100% convinced that the city would do it any differently.

There’s a bigger picture here; and that is that metropolitan cork and the wider region needs to be planned cohesively, and that will require cooperation between the two local authorities, regardless of where a defined boundary is located. The boundary does need to be sorted, and it needs to reflect much more than just the city’s edge. It needs to include some of its metropolitan hinterland – where most of the policies should be directed towards densification of existing settlements and protection of the rural hinterland.

kub

The Minister is legislating for the new boundary.
I cannot link currently but I just saw it on the Breaking News app

flaneur

I don't think he's much choice at this stage. Otherwise it will roll on like Brexit until sometime in 2117.

snotboogie

kub wrote: »

The Minister is legislating for the new boundary.
I cannot link currently but I just saw it on the Breaking News app

Ballincollig, Blarney and Tower included. Cork Airport and Glanmire require further discussion.
Legislation being prepared to extend Cork city's boundary

mire

snotboogie wrote: »

Ballincollig, Blarney and Tower included. Cork Airport and Glanmire require further discussion.
Legislation being prepared to extend Cork city's boundary

Cork Airport and Glanmire Issues are tiny mapping details, afaik, rather than fundamentals

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

Ballincollig, Blarney and Tower included. Cork Airport and Glanmire require further discussion.
Legislation being prepared to extend Cork city's boundary

Pity the minister didn't go further and just say that due to the continued disagreement between both councils that the MacKinnon report will now be implemented in full.

D'Agger

Working in Little Island - can't believe it's being left out of the new city boundary tbqh

spillcoe

Anyone have a decent copy of the latest map? Can see any detail in the picture on that article in the Echo

flaneur

namloc1980 wrote: »

Pity the minister didn't go further and just say that due to the continued disagreement between both councils that the MacKinnon report will now be implemented in full.

Party politics and fear of angering the local FG organisation I suspect.

snotboogie

mire wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Ballincollig, Blarney and Tower included. Cork Airport and Glanmire require further discussion.
Legislation being prepared to extend Cork city's boundary

Cork Airport and Glanmire Issues are tiny mapping details, afaik, rather than fundamentals

Cork Airport is a mapping detail? The business park alone, before you even take the planned expansion into account, is significant. Then you have the fact that it's probably the second or third most important piece of infrastructure in the county.

namloc1980

spillcoe wrote: »

Anyone have a decent copy of the latest map? Can see any detail in the picture on that article in the Echo

Click here for detailed map

mire

snotboogie wrote: »

Cork Airport is a mapping detail? The business park alone, before you even take the planned expansion into account, is significant. Then you have the fact that it's probably the second or third most important piece of infrastructure in the county.

You've misunderstood my point. The issue is not whether Cork Airport is in or out; As far as I know, The issue relates to a small mapping detail.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

D'Agger wrote: »

Working in Little Island - can't believe it's being left out of the new city boundary tbqh

Agreed, one of the biggest employment areas of the City is being kept out of the City simply because of greed.

Little Island with its one road in and one road out has managed to have 87% of people travel by car into the area! :eek:
I think if you sat down with car manufacturers from around the world and asked them how high do they want government policy to push car usage to help increase their profits, I think every single one of them wouldn't come up with a figure as high as 87%. Even car manufacturers would probably suggest usage a bit lower than that, and point out how there is an active railway station nearby and there is no bus service for the area.

Its not like the City cover themselves in glory here either. Didn't Apple have to put on their own private buses for employees to keep up with demand? Or how MahonPoint only had one road in and one road out of it as well. At least they have tried to rectify those problems though. With Apple I think the 202 was run more frequently and another service numbered bus now goes directly onto the compound. MahonPoint put in a second entrance, has plans for a third, and at least two separate bus lines are going through it currently.
There is some understanding at a local level by the City Council with regard to these issues.

The County Council shouldn't be allowed have charge over any area that's part of the City, they don't know or don't care what to do at all with these problems.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Agreed, one of the biggest employment areas of the City is being kept out of the City simply because of greed.

Isn't the reverse also true?
I've no issues with you saying the County are being greedy, but being greedy is a two way street here (shown up by MacKinnon wanting to go as far as the rates from Carrigtwohill).
City Greed = County Greed.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The County Council shouldn't be allowed have charge over any area that's part of the City

But it isn't part of the city.


Include LI as part of the boundary? Ok. I've no issues with that. Can you point out the plans that the City Council have to improve/better the area than what the County Council have? No one actually posts those direct implementations that are waiting in the wings, which should be part of MacKinnon to backup the City's request.

kub

Zachary Quaint Woodchuck wrote:

Isn't the reverse also true? I've no issues with you saying the County are being greedy, but being greedy is a two way street here (shown up by MacKinnon wanting to go as far as the rates from Carrigtwohill). City Greed = County Greed.

The way that post is coming across it seems like MacKinnon has a vested interest in the City Council.