Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Patrick 1959

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Over 10,000 work in little island/day
An island
Can't get more Cul de sac than that

There's not 10,000 people working in little island. there's a big difference in having a traffic jam twice daily (during peak hours) Coming out of an industrial estate onto 6 lane motorway than having 10,000 apartments built and the only entrance to the area been a 20 foot wide road (Albert Road) .

Roger Hassenforder

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

There's not 10,000 people working in little island. there's a big difference in having a traffic jam twice daily (during peak hours) Coming out of an industrial estate onto 6 lane motorway than having 10,000 apartments built and the only entrance to the area been a 20 foot wide road (Albert Road) .

10,000 /day
16,000 possibly allows for shift workers

http://www.corkindependent.com/business/topics/articles/2016/02/25/4115043-traffic-survey-is-the-first-step-in-building-the-little-island-of-the-future/


That's the thing about planning and development though, you can provide infrastructure, and not just rely on a 20' wide road!

Patrick 1959

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

10,000 /day
16,000 possibly allows for shift workers

http://www.corkindependent.com/business/topics/articles/2016/02/25/4115043-traffic-survey-is-the-first-step-in-building-the-little-island-of-the-future/


That's the thing about planning and development though, you can provide infrastructure, and not just rely on a 20' wide road!

OK I was wrong on the amount of people working in Little Island. But on Docklands the East Gate Bridge has to get go ahead for development to begin on a big scale.

mire

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

OK I was wrong on the amount of people working in Little Island. But on Docklands the East Gate Bridge has to get go ahead for development to begin on a big scale.

And you're wrong on this bridge. It is simply not true. At all. Horgans Quay, Water Street, Custom House Quay, Kennedy Quay, much of Centre park road, Victoria Road, Monahan Road (ie all the areas that should be developed first)can be developed immediately without a bridge that far east.That bridge will simply become a silly engineering mega project that will actually undermine the orderly delivery of city focused expansion of the docklands.

Water John

It's simply going to be a haggle. Just set a completion of negotiation date.
The Smiddy Report was utter nonsense and delayed everything.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

Your info is wrong or well out of date. The rate in the city is 74.98. It got hiked last year because of serious holes in the city budget. Hasn't been 70.05 in a long while.

Ok, thanks, my figure was outofdate, but the net point remains; the ARVs are very close and the idea that the boundary extension will result in rates increases is rubbish. It's the valuation, not the ARV that is essential.

Patrick 1959

mire wrote: »

And you're wrong on this bridge. It is simply not true. At all. Horgans Quay, Water Street, Custom House Quay, Kennedy Quay, much of Centre park road, Victoria Road, Monahan Road (ie all the areas that should be developed first)can be developed immediately without a bridge that far east.That bridge will simply become a silly engineering mega project that will actually undermine the orderly delivery of city focused expansion of the docklands.

The east link Bridge to link the lower Glanmire road with Center Park road ( Center park road will be raised above existing road) in fact it will built to duel carriageway standard and link up with the South Link behind City Hall, taking a lot of traffic from City Center and opening up this part of Docklands. Hardly a "silly engineering mega project ".

Roger Hassenforder

Water John wrote: »

It's simply going to be a haggle. Just set a completion of negotiation date.
The Smiddy Report was utter nonsense and delayed everything.

The Smiddy report made a bit more sense this one though. You'd have had a stronger Metro Cork and the rural county areas wouldn't have turned into a Leitrim.

Water John

It was a 'Yes Minister' Report. Coveney and latterly Kelly's grand plan.

Imagine living in Castltownbere or Allihies, 100 miles away. Local Authority takes on a whole new meaning.

The city and about 20 miles around would have sucked the life out of the rest of the county. The rest of the county would have been a colony.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

Ok, thanks, my figure was outofdate, but the net point remains; the ARVs are very close and the idea that the boundary extension will result in rates increases is rubbish. It's the valuation, not the ARV that is essential.

If the ARV is higher in the City (which it is) then it will result in a rates increase. That's not "rubbish" but a clear logical fact.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

If the ARV is higher in the City (which it is) then it will result in a rates increase. That's not "rubbish" but a clear logical fact.

But, it depends on the valuation and what new rate is decided post-boundary extension, no? And also on what the LA decides to do in ARV terms year on year; in the case of a boundary extension, it is much more likely that the expanded city would reduce commercial rates because it has a stronger and wider base. The idea that businesses will pay higher rates is spurious. Businesses should be concerned also about how their rates are spent. Approx 50% of their rates are spent subsidising rural cork, at the expense of the areas fro which it is collected.

mire

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

The east link Bridge to link the lower Glanmire road with Center Park road ( Center park road will be raised above existing road) in fact it will built to duel carriageway standard and link up with the South Link behind City Hall, taking a lot of traffic from City Center and opening up this part of Docklands. Hardly a "silly engineering mega project ".

What a laugh. A dual carriageway standard is ridiculous and btw, I saw the designs, it's not dual carriageway)..Sounds like more overblown road engineering waste. It's not needed to 'open up land' for the next 15 years, at least.

Take a look at the docklands - it has plenty of infrastructure already - streets, railway, access, green space - it needs a bridge at Water Street certainly, but not a 1980's bypass mega fantasy nonsense to connect lower glanmire road to the south link. That's just building roads for the sake of it.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

But, it depends on the valuation and what new rate is decided post-boundary extension, no? And also on what the LA decides to do in ARV terms year on year; in the case of a boundary extension, it is much more likely that the expanded city would reduce commercial rates because it has a stronger and wider base. The idea that businesses will pay higher rates is spurious. Businesses should be concerned also about how their rates are spent. Approx 50% of their rates are spent subsidising rural cork, at the expense of the areas fro which it is collected.

The idea that the City Council will reduce rates is equally "spurious" and based on nothing but hope. The idea they'll pay more rates is based on actual reality and facts.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

What a laugh. A dual carriageway standard is ridiculous and btw, I saw the designs, it's not dual carriageway)..Sounds like more overblown road engineering waste. It's not needed to 'open up land' for the next 15 years, at least.

Take a look at the docklands - it has plenty of infrastructure already - streets, railway, access, green space - it needs a bridge at Water Street certainly, but not a 1980's bypass mega fantasy nonsense to connect lower glanmire road to the south link. That's just building roads for the sake of it.

Not sure you know what you're talking about but the eastern gateway bridge isn't a 1980s bypass mega fantasy.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

Businesses should be concerned also about how their rates are spent. Approx 50% of their rates are spent subsidising rural cork, at the expense of the areas fro which it is collected.

Is this based on any evidence or have you just made it up?

If you said Cork County rate payers near the city are subsidising rural Cork, you wouldn't be too far off the mark. It's the one revenue budget.

But if you think City rate payers are subsidising rural cork, I suggest you have a look at their respective budgets

Reputable Rog

At the end of the day I think this will eventually be a merger but not a merger, I can't believe it's not a merger of you like.
Two separate authorities with a single CE, single finance and single forward planning departments, everyone's a winner and the two mayors will be retained and can continue to swing their dicks around and feel important.
The laughable part of all of this is increasing the number of councillors in both the City and the county.

Water John

What those in the city don't appreciate is that the county operates in three quite distinct areas. North, based in Mallow, South in County Hall and West Cork in Clonakilty/Skibbereen.
So Rog you are saying 4 areas?

The City and County will stay separate. The city will get an expanded area. The discussion is simply, how much.

Roger Hassenforder

Water John wrote: »

What those in the city don't appreciate is that the county operates in three quite distinct areas. North, based in Mallow, South in County Hall and West Cork in Clonakilty/Skibbereen.
So Rog you are saying 4 areas?

The City and County will stay separate. The city will get an expanded area. The discussion is simply, how much.

And South used (not sure if they still do) be divided into South Rural and South Hinterland. Each as big as a lot of other local authorities.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

mire wrote: »

What a laugh. A dual carriageway standard is ridiculous and btw, I saw the designs, it's not dual carriageway)..Sounds like more overblown road engineering waste. It's not needed to 'open up land' for the next 15 years, at least.

Take a look at the docklands - it has plenty of infrastructure already - streets, railway, access, green space - it needs a bridge at Water Street certainly, but not a 1980's bypass mega fantasy nonsense to connect lower glanmire road to the south link. That's just building roads for the sake of it.

Not sure you know what you're talking about but the eastern gateway bridge isn't a 1980s bypass mega fantasy.

Yes it is. It's not needed for docklands redevelopment. It's a local bypass idea to link lower glanmire road with south link, am unnecessary overblown project. It wasn't in the docklands strategy 2001 (maybe read this and ask yourself why the consultants didnt include it) and it was tagged on as an Iconic road scheme in 2007. It's an engineer's pet project. And a waste of money that should be spent on the city end of docklands.

realitykeeper

Recently I read that Cork county councilors are demanding money from Cork city council in return for revenue lost when the city boundary is extended further into the county.

I am confused. I always thought the rates/charges/taxes paid by citizens to the local council (city or county) was to provide services.

Anyone might think the county councilors were putting the money in their own pockets from the way they are going on. The fact that the city council are thinking of agreeing to paying the county council for agreeing to the boundary change adds considerable weight to this perception of grand theft. The whole thing reads a bit like two gangs divvying up a sack of loot.

BlinkingLights

Yeah I agree. They're behaving like they're talking about a proof of making business.

If the city expands, so do many of its costs, particularly around provision of social housing and so on..

Rural areas do need some degree of cross subsidization, but you're not talking about the city and county as two competing businesses. They're public service bodies.

The structures have to be designed to benefit the citizens of the city and county not to protect the management empire.

This needs to be about delivering the most appropriate and suitable type of local government to residents and businesses. It's not about an utterly nonsensical territory war between two public bodies!

Water John

We can now see what a stitch up the Smiddy Report was. The latest report says, there is no example, anywhere in the world, of a metropolitan area being combined successfully with a rural area.

Another Coveney brainfart?

BullBlackNova

realitykeeper wrote: »

Recently I read that Cork county councilors are demanding money from Cork city council in return for revenue lost when the city boundary is extended further into the county.

I am confused. I always thought the rates/charges/taxes paid by citizens to the local council (city or county) was to provide services.

Anyone might think the county councilors were putting the money in their own pockets from the way they are going on. The fact that the city council are thinking of agreeing to paying the county council for agreeing to the boundary change adds considerable weight to this perception of grand theft. The whole thing reads a bit like two gangs divvying up a sack of loot.

The justification is (and not saying I agree with it but this is what it is...) is that the county overall will suffer due to the loss of rates.

The county areas in question generate ~€86 million in rates and LPT (figures provided by Simon Coveney at the announcement of the report, might not be exact). The provision of services in those areas costs approx €46 million each year, with the remainding €40 million spent on services elsewhere in the county.

Since many areas in the county have very low rates or LPT bases, it is necessary to use funds generated elsewhere to cover costs.

The argument, therefore, is that once the city have taken whatever is needed to cover services in Little Island, Glanmire, Ballincollig, etc, that the rest will still need to be spent on services in Skib or Mallow or wherever.

If the full €86 million went into the city, the city would have a huge surplus and could add to its own offering (all good for them) but the county would have a massive shortfall and would struggle to make ends meet.

As per the current proposals, the remaining funds would ensure that nobody suffers disproportionately as a result of the changes.

The whole suggestion of theft or the money going into pockets is nonsensical. I mean, if you ever want to be sure that elected members are incapable of carrying out a conspiracy this wide, I would suggest sitting in on one of the meetings. You'll leave it pretty convinced that if there is money going astray, it's not them that's doing it because they aren't capable of it!!

lisasimpson

The expansion talk has been going on for years and years. In the short term could they not just make all douglas/ rochestown/frankfield/togher the obvious areas part of the city while debating on the mertis of adding the likes of the collig to it

BlinkingLights

The problem is the two vested interests won't be able to agree anything as they're seeing it from polar opposite points of view.
Threatening them isn't really very helpful, which is what the previous government basically did i.e. agree something or we'll destroy both of you and make you one unitary body.

The state is going to have to come up with a solution here as the two parties seem to be not really capable of having a rational discussion without talking about 'land grabs'.

It's fairly obvious Cork City needs to be bigger, and it's fairly obvious that the county could do a lot better focusing on things that a large, predominately rural, local authority should be focused on, and not dealing with places that are in Cork City.

The only issue really is ensuring that the two authorities are adequately funded, and that's more a competency for the state.

DylanGLC

I understand how people would question Blarney and stuff, but Douglas, Rochestown, Grange and Frankfield are obvious ones that should be included. I live around there and I would consider myself part of the city even though it isn't official. It doesn't really make sense to me that they aren't already part of it already.

Patrick 1959

No boundary extension for 52 years, and cork county council is feasting from the city i.e. 90% of industry is based in a 10 mile radius from the cork city. I rember Cork City corpation looking for a boundary extension in early 80s to build the huge housing estates they were building at the time and been refused i.e. (Lotamore in Mayfield a Coraption estate built on County Council land) Also there was at that time a lot of city industries were moving to greenfield sites on the edge or just outside the city boundary (Pouladuff,Togher,Churchfied City Docks moving to Ringaskiddy ) Ballincollig Blarney Glanmire Douglas at that time were towns where some of my family and friends went or were forced to live as building land in the cork city was scarce making buying a new house very expensive. cork county council stopping a boundary extension since the 1980s has made cork City there cash cow i.e. Population in a 3 mile radius from the city boundary is equal if not bigger than the city, almost all new industry will have to be built there due to lack of land 90% of this growth has happened since the80s . cork City is the reson for all this growth and should be given a boundary extension with enough land to plan for the next 50 to80 years.

Water John

Yes the boundary extension needs to be grabbed politically and negotiated. The dancing around it, incl the Smiddy Report is no good to any one.
And we have some developers, eg O'flynn, still supporting that line.

The final outcome must be fair. The County Council must have the resources to look after its towns and vast hinterland. The city, what ever it is, needs to be under its own singular Authority, the City council.

Patrick 1959

Cork county council should have been pushing a lot harder for industry in the other towns they have in this huge county, the harbours towns also.the road infrastructure in the county area is terrible, the road network on the council side of the city is terrible. ( access from Little Island to the NRA road network,Douglas,Forge Hill ) instead they denied the city a boundary extension and fed off the city overspill and the industry attracted to the city.

BlinkingLights

The reason is that Cork City is the regional hub for County Cork and actually far beyond it. You have to realistically expect that you'll get a cluster of industry in the city as that's where there's not only the infrastructure, but also people to work in it.

I also am not entirely sure why the County Council would have to be subsidised directly by the City Council. Is it not a case that that kind of cross subsidising should be getting shuffled around at national level?

I mean, you could make arguments that parts of Tipperary and West Waterford have as much to do with Cork City as parts of West Cork.

Ireland has an inability to see that there is a need for cities at all. There's an element of politics here that seems to favour scatting everything to the four winds. That simply isn't even economically viable.