Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

Patrick 1959

Reading tonight's echo will the compromise between the two councils be city to take all urban areas around the city and county council keep the big industrial estates on the outskirts of the city.

Water John

Probably, haven't read it. The City can focus on development of the dock area.

Roger Hassenforder

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Reading tonight's echo will the compromise between the two councils be city to take all urban areas around the city and county council keep the big industrial estates on the outskirts of the city.

This won't please the city. They're a bit anxious to see the recommendations implemented as a matter of urgency.
It's was only ever a rates and land grab, tarted up as a "need to grow the population".
Their original proposal was as far as Ballincollig. But not Ballincollig. As far as Blarney. But not Blarney. As far as Carrigaline. But not Carrigaline. As far as Glanmire, with a big bulge around Little island.

BullBlackNova

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Proposed-new-City-and-County-boundary-yet-to-be-finalised-f090fb0d-92ef-408f-98b1-77107e8d7c49-ds

If anyone wants a look.

Suggestion seems to be that industrial areas in the county that have low population (i.e. the airport maybe?) would remain as is and that the city would still get some of the higher population areas.

Wonder if it was what was always planned? Put out this huge expansion, then "compromise" on it and just have a smaller expansion. Standard negotiation tactic, really.

Water John

People cannot now complain about the delay. The Smiddy Report was an effort to pull a fast one. By whom, would be an interesting list.
It backfired, the right thing might be done, now. If it takes a few months, fine.
Couple it to a move on the M20 and set the whole south west right as a counter balance to Dublin.

KCAccidental

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It's was only ever a rates and land grab, tarted up as a "need to grow the population".

1965 was the last boundary extension. The county capitalized on this by concentrating development on the outskirts the City essentially profiting off the City's urban population density and attempting to hollow it out with slapdash suburban development

Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind.

Patrick 1959

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

No boundary extension for 52 years, and cork county council is feasting from the city i.e. 90% of industry is based in a 10 mile radius from the cork city. I rember Cork City corpation looking for a boundary extension in early 80s to build the huge housing estates they were building at the time and been refused i.e. (Lotamore in Mayfield a Coraption estate built on County Council land) Also there was at that time a lot of city industries were moving to greenfield sites on the edge or just outside the city boundary (Pouladuff,Togher,Churchfied City Docks moving to Ringaskiddy ) Ballincollig Blarney Glanmire Douglas at that time were towns where some of my family and friends went or were forced to live as building land in the cork city was scarce making buying a new house very expensive. cork county council stopping a boundary extension since the 1980s has made cork City THEIR cash cow i.e. Population in a 3 mile radius from the city boundary is equal if not bigger than the city, almost all new industry will have to be built there due to lack of land 90% of this growth has happened since the80s . cork City is the reson for all this growth and should be given a boundary extension with enough land to plan for the next 50 to80 years.

The reason the boundary extension is not a land grab but so very essential to the growth of employment

Roger Hassenforder

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

The reason the boundary extension is not a land grab but so very essential to the growth of employment

I'm not convinced, merely due their original boundary expansion proposals

JupiterKid

Cork city and suburbs population has more than doubled since the last city boundary extension - in 1965. It makes complete sense to have as much of the contiguous built up area within the city limits as it means unified and co-ordinated planning and development - not two LAs trying to outdo one another.

This boundary extension should have happened 30 years ago but small minded parochialism put the kybosh on that. Douglas began to be developed for housing 45+ years ago. As did Ballincollig.

So many city and town boundaries make no sense in the light of the suburban development that has taken place beyond the official boundaries. Waterford for one comes to mind.

As another poster here opined, Irish politics just doesn't properly understand how urban areas and cities in particular work - as growth engines and drivers for wider economic development of their hinterlands. There is a pathetic anti-urban bias in Ireland which has been an urban nation for almost 50 years now.

j8wk2feszrnpao

JupiterKid wrote: »

There is a pathetic anti-urban bias in Ireland which has been an urban nation for almost 50 years now.

What? The county has been urban for 50yrs, but the county is anti-urban?
I wish people would stop the 'typical Ireland' or the hyperbolic statements that have no truth in relativity.
This is simply a power struggle between two organisations that want to keep as much land/people/money as they can for their own needs. It happens everywhere.
Some of the proposals by the City for expansion make total sense, but their efforts to extend to some areas was a land grab and didn't help matters.

JupiterKid

munstermagic11 wrote: »

What? The county has been urban for 50yrs, but the county is anti-urban?
I wish people would stop the 'typical Ireland' or the hyperbolic statements that have no truth in relativity.
This is simply a power struggle between two organisations that want to keep as much land/people/money as they can for their own needs. It happens everywhere.
Some of the proposals by the City for expansion make total sense, but their efforts to extend to some areas was a land grab and didn't help matters.

Country, not county.

Yes, politics in Ireland has lagged behind the social and economic realities by decades. Look at how late contraception and divorce came here, for instance.

The irony is as parish pump politics bickers over the allocation of resources, infrastructure and services to most of Ireland, without a robust urban growth policy Dublin just continues to expand and gobble up inward investment, leaving the regional cities, Cork the key one here, well behind.

Some people can't see the woods for the trees.

j8wk2feszrnpao

JupiterKid wrote: »

Country, not county.

Yes, politics in Ireland has lagged behind the social and economic realities by decades. Look at how late contraception and divorce came here, for instance.

The irony is as parish pump politics bickers over the allocation of resources, infrastructure and services to most of Ireland, without a robust urban growth policy Dublin just continues to expand and gobble up inward investment, leaving the regional cities, Cork the key one here, well behind.

Some people can't see the woods for the trees.

So Dublin is booming ahead, yet the country is anti-urban? About 2/3 of the country is urban, but we're anti urban? Less of the contradictions.

And throwing in red herrings about religion and contraception. We're taliking about the City and County here, leave your other gripes to one side.

And speaking of parish politics, you only seem to care about Cork being left behind. So you don't want the big city having all the toys; how almost "anti urban" of you. But I guess you're too busy looking at the trees.

And if you believe that we don't have the resources for urban planning, then why care about the debate? Either way, with your mindset, neither council will do the job correctly.

DylanGLC

The County Council have submitted their proposal for the boundary extension. The city would be increased from 37.8km2 to 69.8km2, with an immediate population of 160,000. I'm not sure about the north side but the south side would start just passed Broadale/Maryborough Ridge in Douglas

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGYsxdfXsAA4cgj.jpg:small

Water John

Well, now the negotiations can start in earnest. Some idea of what both sides want.
Pick a referee and set a deadline.

Soccarboy11

DylanGLC wrote: »

The County Council have submitted their proposal for the boundary extension. The city would be increased from 37.8km2 to 69.8km2, with an immediate population of 160,000. I'm not sure about the north side but the south side would start just passed Broadale/Maryborough Ridge in Douglas

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGYsxdfXsAA4cgj.jpg:small

Once sarsfield road roundabout, sarsfield road and the estates in the area become part of it I'll be happy. The county council have let that roundabout and the new bridge go to crap, compared to the new one they built in Dublin newlandscross. Grass rarely cut both on the bridge, road and surrounding estates. They have an entire countryside to look after, this area is basically city.

Water John

Well, they firstly have to agree an overarching concept. It there going to be a clearly defined green belt, within which the city is contained?

namloc1980

Soccarboy11 wrote: »

Once sarsfield road roundabout, sarsfield road and the estates in the area become part of it I'll be happy. The county council have let that roundabout and the new bridge go to crap, compared to the new one they built in Dublin newlandscross. Grass rarely cut both on the bridge, road and surrounding estates. They have an entire countryside to look after, this area is basically city.

As a national road the County Council have no control or responsibility for the road and bridge. That is TII's job.

Reputable Rog

Soccarboy11 wrote: »

Once sarsfield road roundabout, sarsfield road and the estates in the area become part of it I'll be happy. The county council have let that roundabout and the new bridge go to crap, compared to the new one they built in Dublin newlandscross. Grass rarely cut both on the bridge, road and surrounding estates. They have an entire countryside to look after, this area is basically city.

I thought the roundabout was gone?

Water John

The residents of any area, are entitled to their voice and should be heard. Not at all sure what Alf Smiddy is doing at such a meeting. His role has passed and his work rejected.

KCAccidental

Water John wrote: »

The residents of any area, are entitled to their voice and should be heard. Not at all sure what Alf Smiddy is doing at such a meeting. His role has passed and his work rejected.

problem is that some of these residents are deeply misinformed. The amount of times people have said "we don't want to lose our local council to the city" when they haven't realized that town councils were abolished a few years ago.

I think one of the good points though are the fact that City rates are deeply uncompetitive. Things have to change on that issue.

KCAccidental

DylanGLC wrote: »

The County Council have submitted their proposal for the boundary extension. The city would be increased from 37.8km2 to 69.8km2, with an immediate population of 160,000. I'm not sure about the north side but the south side would start just passed Broadale/Maryborough Ridge in Douglas

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGYsxdfXsAA4cgj.jpg:small

I think we can safely assume that the actual boundary will be somewhere between the huge City proposal and the paltry County proposal.

Water John

Sorry, meant to include this link of Ballincollig meeting.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Ballincollig-land-grab-by-Cork-city-is-criticised-at-public-meeting-080bb136-ce53-459b-a7d3-3fd64198918f-ds

thejuggler

KCAccidental wrote: »

problem is that some of these residents are deeply misinformed. The amount of times people have said "we don't want to lose our local council to the city" when they haven't realized that town councils were abolished a few years ago.

I think one of the good points though are the fact that City rates are deeply uncompetitive. Things have to change on that issue.

I don't think the vocal minority in Ballincollig (Derry Canty et al) speak for the majority of people who have moved to the town in recent years. Many of those who have moved to Ballincollig see it as a suburb of Cork City and would welcome for this to be formalised.
The small town mentality of 20 years ago needs to change with the times.

Fingers crossed the extension will go ahead as originally recommended

Water John

Wouldn't see much chance of the city largely getting its own way. Seemed a major overreach

DylanGLC

KCAccidental wrote: »

I think we can safely assume that the actual boundary will be somewhere between the huge City proposal and the paltry County proposal.

I actually think this new proposal would be fine. It never made sense to me why they decided to include Blarney, even after reading their reasons. I wish the airport was still included, though, as it, Donnybrook and Moneygourney are good transitions on the south side from the county to the city in terms of urban versus rural, and it would be nice to see the city at 200,000 people, but if that was the offer decided on in the end, I would be happy

Patrick 1959

The county council will have to do a lot better than that. Most of the land on the south side is built on city needs enough land for the next 50 years . What Alf Smiddy up to ? . Has he not been paid already for his rejected Plan .

Roger Hassenforder

They might as well have handed over as far as the Glashaboy river. Makes a natural boundary to the East.

Soccarboy11

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I thought the roundabout was gone?

Nope, double the size and twice as confusing with pretty bad pedestrian support but worth it for less traffic , helping people going from ballincollig to the city or Douglas/Mahon etc a lot.

JupiterKid

munstermagic11 wrote: »

So Dublin is booming ahead, yet the country is anti-urban? About 2/3 of the country is urban, but we're anti urban? Less of the contradictions.

And throwing in red herrings about religion and contraception. We're taliking about the City and County here, leave your other gripes to one side.

And speaking of parish politics, you only seem to care about Cork being left behind. So you don't want the big city having all the toys; how almost "anti urban" of you. But I guess you're too busy looking at the trees.

And if you believe that we don't have the resources for urban planning, then why care about the debate? Either way, with your mindset, neither council will do the job correctly.

I'm fully entitled to my opinion. The fact remains that the way local authorities and local politics is organised in this country do not reflect the reality of the current situation. Many counties and their boundaries make no sense. If we had a blank canvas it would be preferable if the regional cities could develop as a counterbalance to Dublin. That is one of the reasons why the M20 motorway is so important.

In any other Northern European country, the boundary issue would have been resolved properly years ago. I just hope they strike the right balance with Cork - 200k within the city limits would be about right.

j8wk2feszrnpao

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm fully entitled to my opinion. The fact remains that the way local authorities and local politics is organised in this country do not reflect the reality of the current situation. Many counties and their boundaries make no sense. If we had a blank canvas it would be preferable if the regional cities could develop as a counterbalance to Dublin. That is one of the reasons why the M20 motorway is so important.

In any other Northern European country, the boundary issue would have been resolved properly years ago. I just hope they strike the right balance with Cork - 200k within the city limits would be about right.

No one said you weren't entitled to your opinion.
When you start stating "facts", then it doesn't become opinion.