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Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended
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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-city-council-rejects-land-offer-and-seeks-bigger-border-change-1.3186659
County Council offer unanimously rejected. Apparently the government decides next steps0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-city-council-rejects-land-offer-and-seeks-bigger-border-change-1.3186659
County Council offer unanimously rejected. Apparently the government decides next steps
Right decision imo. County proposal was just kicking further needed expansion further down the road.
City needs room to grow.0 -
Well the County proposal is a lot nearer reality than the City proposal. This is shadow boxing. Lets call them, position papers.0
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Water John wrote: »Well the County proposal is a lot nearer reality than the City proposal. This is shadow boxing. Lets call them, position papers.
Central government need to step in and make the decision. Both councils are just arsing around at this stage. If Cork is to develop and grow it needs a large urban area under a unified local government. The county proposal is frankly laughable.0 -
When did an imposed decision ever solve a dispute? The answer is never. It's the role of Central Govn't to facilitate a negotiating process that develops a solution into which both LAs can buy.
We saw Central Govn't try to force an amalgamation. We saw how far that got.
Central Govn't in the guise of Phil Hogan decimated local govn't by doing away with Urban Councils. We are already looking at how to recover that level of local govn't.0 -
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Water John wrote: »When did an imposed decision ever solve a dispute? The answer is never. It's the role of Central Govn't to facilitate a negotiating process that develops a solution into which both LAs can buy.
We saw Central Govn't try to force an amalgamation. We saw how far that got.
Central Govn't in the guise of Phil Hogan decimated local govn't by doing away with Urban Councils. We are already looking at how to recover that level of local govn't.
The MacKinnon report was the independent recommendation but the County has outright rejected it and have come back with a laughable counter proposal which amounts to basically offering the city all the residential areas on the outskirts of the current boundary which cost money to maintain, but they'll keep all the lovely high rate paying areas like the Airport and Little Island/Carrigtwohill IDA. Laughable carry on. Anyway it's over to government now to decide on the MacKinnon recommendations in the Autumn.0 -
This needs to get resolved sooner rather than later (ideally it should have been sorted out 20 years ago).
Cork is the economic engine of the south of the country, and the second biggest area in the country. It is beyond reckless at this stage that the city is being choked from growth because planning can't be implemented under the one council.
Cork County Council is already the biggest council in the country by land area. It's disgraceful that they would quibble about having control over areas that are within the city.
Objectively; the airport, Ballincollig, Little Island, Glanmire, Rochestown all need to be under one council. Then long term strategic planning can be effectively implemented for the benefit of everyone.
Any outside observer would make the obvious point, the entire city needs to be under the leadership of one council, including green field space for effective future plans. Any other option is merely starving the city from growing to its full potential.
*A separate but related point. It makes far more logical sense if places like Youghal and Ardmore were administered together. I like GAA, but it's a sport, and shouldn't be used as an arbiter of how local services and facilities are run.0 -
This needs to get resolved sooner rather than later (ideally it should have been sorted out 20 years ago).
Cork is the economic engine of the south of the country, and the second biggest area in the country. It is beyond reckless at this stage that the city is being choked from growth because planning can't be implemented under the one council.
Cork County Council is already the biggest council in the country by land area. It's disgraceful that they would quibble about having control over areas that are within the city.
Objectively; the airport, Ballincollig, Little Island, Glanmire, Rochestown all need to be under one council. Then long term strategic planning can be effectively implemented for the benefit of everyone.
Any outside observer would make the obvious point, the entire city needs to be under the leadership of one council, including green field space for effective future plans. Any other option is merely starving the city from growing to its full potential.
*A separate but related point. It makes far more logical sense if places like Youghal and Ardmore were administered together. I like GAA, but it's a sport, and shouldn't be used as an arbiter of how local services and facilities are run.
Very good sensible stuff here. I hope the minister proceeds with a full and proper boundary extension.
Cork County Council looking increasingly silly with their ridiculous offer of a few housing estates. An impetuous and childish act. Not impressive at all. Meanwhile Alf smiddy continues to damage the county's case with his appearances at town hall meetings whinging that his rubbish report had been, well, rubbished.0 -
Any Minister, with any cop, will not in any way attempt a forced settlement. Yes, encourage, cajole, push both sides to come to a shared acceptance of an agreed line.
Yes, agreed Smiddy has nothing to contribute.0 -
https://twitter.com/CllrDesCahil/status/891047739106230273
Open letter to the citizens of Cork from the Lord Mayor Cllr Tony FitzgeraldOPEN LETTER TO THE CITIZENS OF CORK
The publication of the Report of the Expert Advisory Group on Local Government Arrangements, known as the MacKinnon report, was always going to generate debate. However, I have been taken aback by the nature of some commentary in recent weeks. The purpose of this Open Letter is not only to respond but to put some facts in the public domain that will set out why the MacKinnon boundary extension offers the best opportunity to develop Cork City so it can drive economic growth in the wider Cork region.
Cork city is a prosperous outward-looking city with a diverse economic base. Recently, it was hailed as the number one small European city for foreign direct investment by the Financial Times FDI Magazine; won the Great Town (i.e. under 350,000 population) Category from the Academy of Urbanism, was ranked number one for cultural venues and facilities amongst European cities with a population of under 500,000, and came top of the table for cultural vibrancy amongst small to medium-sized European cities.
However, in Cork City’s case, a growing economy has not led to a growing population as it was strangled by an outdated city boundary that had not been extended since 1965. Instead people who work, go to school, shop and socialise – and use city services daily – are living in a necklace of defacto suburbs and satellite towns that were developed beyond the city boundary to meet the pressing demand for housing, commercial and industrial space convenient to the city. For five decades Cork County Council steadfastly refused to agree to a city boundary extension as it would mean relinquishing these rates bases. Indeed, data shows that much revenue generated in these defacto city suburbs and satellite towns is diverted to fund services in more remote parts of the county where population is significantly lower. Cork City Council believes that rates and taxes should be spent in the area where they are raised
As a public representative I am deeply disappointed by recent attempts to whip up unnecessary fear in communities. Such falsehoods must be countered:
The extension of the city boundary will NOT stop access to national or EU rural funding streams such as LEADER funding in rural areas.
Once the boundary extension beds in, it will likely mean greater spending per citizen in the expanded area. Records show that in 2017 Cork City Council spent €1,363 per citizen on public services while Cork County Council spent just €717.
Cork County Council has also alleged that the extension of the Cork city boundary will somehow undermine local identity or change daily life in satellite towns. To the contrary, I am very happy that citizens will enjoy an improved quality of life in strong communities. Citizens will benefit from Cork City Council’s proven track record in community development, sports funding, social inclusion, arts and recreation as well as in meeting housing need.
Quality of life will improve for all if one authority is delivering joined-up planning policy. There will be more housing closer to the city centre and better transport links. Without sustainable transport links, we face a future of gridlock and road tolling in the Cork region. Cork City Council does not want an urban area where 40% of land is road and carparks – this is not what a modern smart city should be about, nor is it what the citizen wants.
The extent of the increase proposed in the MacKinnon extension area has drawn comment from Cork County Council but such commentary ignores best practice in planning and service provision which states that the most successful cities have jurisdiction over their rural hinterland as well as urban areas. Such best practice takes place in Europe where rural towns similar in size and profile to Carrigtwohill maintain their unique identity while benefitting from improved roads, public transport and enhanced service delivery as part of an urban local government unit.
Cork County Council’s recent boundary extension proposal was presented without accompanying data to support its population and economic projections. This means that its argument for a minimalist boundary expansion lacks foundation compared to the detailed evidence-based arguments for an extended boundary that we have made to the various report authors, all of which are in the public domain.
The boundary extension proposed by Cork County Council was given every consideration by Cork City Council but it offered little other than ceding control of existing defacto suburbs. It cannot be described as generous. From our analysis, only 30% of this area is capable of being developed. Their proposal does not offer sufficient land and population to ensure Cork can expand to provide a sustainable counterbalance to Dublin. What the county council is finally offering is what Cork City needed in 1980, not in 2017.
The time for debate has passed. We have all had our chance to state our case – including community groups in city and county. The case for a boundary extension of scale has been supported by three separate reports. We must focus on implementation and delivering for the people of Cork. The MacKinnon extension is about assuring a quality of life for our children and their children. We cannot afford to get this wrong.
Tony Fitzgerald0 -
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Glad some sense and fact based reason is being injected into the debate. The hysteria in Ballincollig would be laughable if this issue wasn't so important.0
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See the phrase ' we have all had the chance, to state our case'???
Perhaps someone can explain, other than in political terms, why, Blarney, Ballincollig, Carrigtowhill are in, but Passage West is out.
That map is definitely politically drawn.0 -
things are heating up.
Council mayor's response to above from their home page
Response by the County Mayor to the Lord Mayor’s Open Letter of August 22nd, 2017 on the matter of a boundary extension.
As Mayor of County Cork, I have repeatedly stated Cork County Council’s position that this difficult problem can best be resolved through dialogue between the two local authorities. The Lord Mayor has today published an open letter to the citizens of Cork and consequently I am obliged to provide balance to the comments which he has made. All of our public comment made in recent weeks has been based on fact and on publicly available documents. These documents include the joint City/County submission to the National Planning Framework 2017, the County Development and Local Area Plans, the City Development Plan, the City Docks Local Area Plan and the City’s Tivoli Docks Local Area Plan.
The County Council welcomes the successes of the metropolitan region which have been achieved in recent times. These successes have resulted from cooperation between city and county through long established joint planning frameworks. It has long been the case that city and county are indivisible from an economic development perspective. For instance, the Lord Mayor’s quoted Financial Times FDI magazine award relates not only to the city area with a population of 126,000 but to a metropolitan Cork area. Successes in the FDI arena have not been restricted to Cork City’s boundary but have extended from West Cork to Ringaskiddy to Little Island and to East Cork. We join with the City in taking pride in these achievements. Indeed, it has always been our position that there is only one Cork.
Regrettably, the Lord Mayor is correct in stating that Cork City’s population has not grown in line with the rates experienced in other parts of metropolitan Cork. However, to suggest that the City has been strangled by the County is misleading. Growth in the City area has been a longstanding objective of our joint approach. However, the City’s failure to develop the many brownfield sites within its jurisdiction cannot be blamed on the County Council. The forthcoming National Planning Framework (NPF) will demand such an emphasis, not sprawl into greenbelts as MacKinnon will entail. I would suggest that the authority which has best managed growth in metropolitan Cork in recent times has been the County Council; Ballincollig is a shining example of how this can best be achieved.
The Lord Mayor promises more housing close to the city centre if MacKinnon is implemented. There’s no logic to this. If more housing closer to the city centre is what the people of Cork want, then there is plenty of opportunity within the City boundary. An over generous boundary extension won’t help Docklands to redevelop. Rather the City authorities should be asking themselves if their strategy towards docklands has been effective in the way they’ve implemented it. A generous boundary extension as the means to fuel a growing population suggests that a sprawling city will be the outcome rather than a compact, efficient city for tomorrow’s population.
I am advised that in recent history, the first significant approach to the County in relation to an extension was made in 2006. I am further advised that at that time, executives did plot a possible extension but that it was roundly rejected by City Hall. To suggest that this has been going on since 1965 is misleading. I might also suggest that this matter could and should have been concluded two years ago had the City not objected to the recommendations of the Smiddy report.
The concept of equalisation and distribution of taxation is not one which is confined to Cork. At a national level, property tax is distributed in such a way to support the weak by the stronger. Smaller counties could not survive if such an approach was not adopted and it is no different in Cork. The County Council have never made any secret of the fact that its extremities are supported by the centre and this it should be.
On rural funding, Cities are not eligible to attract such supports. If parts of rural Cork are subsumed into the city, they will be excluded, no doubt about it.
I am most surprised that the Lord Mayor has pointed to the elephant in the room in the MacKinnon proposal. The elephant being that Cork City cannot afford to spend the same money per head of population in a MacKinnon city as it currently does (€1,363 City vs. €717 County). This additional cost, in addition to the compensation which it would have to pay to the County is simply not sustainable or affordable. MacKinnon made reference to the possibility that the City may have to borrow funds to finance this. I wonder have DPER heard about this? Are we seriously suggesting that the public will have to pay more to provide services in this day and age? Quite simply, the City can’t afford MacKinnon. Incidentally, do the County residents in the suburbs notice any difference in the levels of service?
On the matter of identity, the Lord Mayor doesn’t have to listen to the County. He simply needs to read about what has been happening in Ballincollig and Carrigtwohill. People know about their own identity and have expressed their views on this independently of the County Council. Rural dwellers have also had their say including Muintir na Tire and the County’s public participation networks. The County’s track record in providing facilities and its community development stands on its record.
To suggest that the County’s proposed offer to the City does not equate to best practice is simply untrue. The NPF will demand the concentrated development of brownfield sites as a priority in addressing the housing crisis. This will not be achieved through the creation of a city area twice the size of Dublin with a population density approaching rural status. Our proposal was based on data and policy contained in the joint NPF submission, our local area plan projections and on the City’s own plans. It is entirely evidence based. Is a proposal which increases the City area by 85% and which would ultimately give it a population of 283,000 minimalist? I will leave that to the readers own analysis.
Finally, there have been only two substantive reports on this matter to date, Smiddy and MacKinnon. The others have been either unpublished or not commissioned by the State. It is remarkable that the City now appear to be levelling overreaction against the County given its own response to the Smiddy report.
Only reasoned dialogue will resolve this and this should happen sooner rather than later to avoid further division in what should be “one Cork”.
things are set to escalate!
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/first-draft-of-cork-citys-red-line-due-shortly-457508.html0 -
Water John wrote: »See the phrase ' we have all had the chance, to state our case'???
Perhaps someone can explain, other than in political terms, why, Blarney, Ballincollig, Carrigtowhill are in, but Passage West is out.
That map is definitely politically drawn.
Passage would be part of a special harbour district with monkstown, ringaskiddy etc.0 -
KCAccidental wrote: »Passage would be part of a special harbour district with monkstown, ringaskiddy etc.
only a bigger version of the existing (undeveloped and shambolic) docklands...
we're doomed!0 -
Excellent letter from Declan Hurley.
Well argued and reasonable. Well he has, possession is 9/10ths of the law, to fall back on.0 -
Water John wrote: »Excellent letter from Declan Hurley.
Well argued and reasonable. Well he has, possession is 9/10ths of the law, to fall back on.
It's not especially impressive. Cork County Council have consistently resisted a boundary extension for fifty years. They're behaving extremely irresponsibly now that the expert reports have clearly concluded that a substantial extension is urgently required.
Meanwhile, as local politicians in Cork whinge about rural identity.... of satellite towns and farmers in carrigtwohill and shriek at the notion of allowing the city expand, the prospect of any solution gets further away. Hurleys script is just reactionary self serving nonsense that rejects all available evidence and best practice. It's depressing that people really believe that half of the city's Metropolitan area should be run by a rural authority and who think that the city should be squeezed to subsidize the rural periphery.
Cork is ****ed.0 -
I wouldn't get too emotional. These are the initial skirmishes, laying out each others position. It may take 6 months to get agreement but the world won't stop because of it.
Local politicians represent their area and I wouldn't be for belittling one because he/she had a contrary opinion to me.
The beginning of work on the M20 to Limerick and a Northern Ring Road are far more important.0 -
Water John wrote: »I wouldn't get too emotional. These are the initial skirmishes, laying out each others position. It may take 6 months to get agreement but the world won't stop because of it.
Local politicians represent their area and I wouldn't be for belittling one because he/she had a contrary opinion to me.
The beginning of work on the M20 to Limerick and a Northern Ring Road are far more important.
I disagree.
I am not belittling Mr. Hurley because I have a different opinion. I am offering a critique of his ridiculous assertions; they are ridiculous because they ignore the hard evidence and best practice. His commentary is childish and irresponsible.
I couldn’t disagree more about the relative importance of this issue. Cork needs to get its governance sorted; There is a real prospect that the reactionary political response may preclude any change to the boundary. If this doesn’t happen in time for the next round of local elections it will be another five years before it can be addressed - 2024?. That would be bad for cork, and that is what Cork County council appear to be agitating for. Indeed, Cork County council have been resisting any boundary extension for a long time.
The cork limerick motorway and the north ring road are indeed important. The latter is actually much more important than the former btw. However, I fail to see the relationship between these infrastructure projects and the local government situation. The delivery of one has nothing to do with the other.0 -
The county council proposal is a joke. It's basically the existing suburbs on the edge of the city boundary - mainly residential areas that cost money to maintain. County council are more than happy to hold on to all the lovely high rate paying areas though i.e. Little Island/Airport. Laughable.
Also given the complete mess the county have made of Douglas by completely overdeveloping it and sucking rates out of the city, the county needs to be kept as far away from the city as possible. A large buffer zone is needed to save us all from County "development".0 -
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namloc1980 wrote: »The county council proposal is a joke. It's basically the existing suburbs on the edge of the city boundary - mainly residential areas that cost money to maintain. County council are more than happy to hold on to all the lovely high rate paying areas though i.e. Little Island/Airport. Laughable.
but sure isnt that what the City want... a bigger population (there is LPT!)... unless it was ever only about the rates...;)
population growth me arshe.
that said, while the County offer was derisory, what McKinnon is recommending is an absolute farce. Barney, Ballincollig and Carrigtohill are rural towns, Ballincollig is catching up on Tralee population. If they join these three towns to the City, we can kiss the lovley green belts goodbye, we'll have Tallaght/Clondalkin esque sprawls all they way to Farran.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »but sure isnt that what the City want... a bigger population (there is LPT!)... unless it was ever only about the rates...;)
population growth me arshe.
that said, while the County offer was derisory, what McKinnon is recommending is an absolute farce. Barney, Ballincollig and Carrigtohill are rural towns, Ballincollig is catching up on Tralee population. If they join these three towns to the City, we can kiss the lovley green belts goodbye, we'll have Tallaght/Clondalkin esque sprawls all they way to Farran.
Ballincollig is about as rural as Cork city centre.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »but sure isnt that what the City want... a bigger population (there is LPT!)... unless it was ever only about the rates...;)
population growth me arshe.
that said, while the County offer was derisory, what McKinnon is recommending is an absolute farce. Barney, Ballincollig and Carrigtohill are rural towns, Ballincollig is catching up on Tralee population. If they join these three towns to the City, we can kiss the lovley green belts goodbye, we'll have Tallaght/Clondalkin esque sprawls all they way to Farran.
Sorry, that's preposterous. They are satellite towns.0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »but sure isnt that what the City want... a bigger population (there is LPT!)... unless it was ever only about the rates...;)
population growth me arshe.
that said, while the County offer was derisory, what McKinnon is recommending is an absolute farce. Barney, Ballincollig and Carrigtohill are rural towns, Ballincollig is catching up on Tralee population. If they join these three towns to the City, we can kiss the lovley green belts goodbye, we'll have Tallaght/Clondalkin esque sprawls all they way to Farran.
There actually isn't any 'lovely green belt' from the old tennis village out Model Farm Road to Ballincollig.
The only way to avoid a continuous unplanned and uncoordinated mass sprawl for Cork City is for it to be under the one council leadership. There is no other way about it.
It is Cork County Council who have really made a joke of this whole process, with offering minimum amounts of land that are well within the city limits, and also the ludicrous plan for a massive amalgamation project of one super council (which would have basically been an experiment of a first of its kind anywhere in Ireland, maybe even the world).0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »Ballincollig is about as rural as Cork city centre.
I'm here at the moment: horizon is green hills with a few Freisan cows and a forest.
City centre all right!Sorry, that's preposterous. They are satellite towns.
"Preposterous"!!
They're towns (effectively) surrounded by countryside , they're rural rather than urban0 -
Roger Hassenforder wrote: »I'm here at the moment: horizon is green hills with a few Freisan cows and a forest.
City centre all right!
Standing in the middle of a field doesn't count I'm afraid. A settlement with a population of 20k is not rural by any measure.0 -
This is utterly stupid!
They're letting two entities that have competing interests try to come up with an agreement that needs to be in THE PUBLIC INTEREST.
The issue needs to be resolved by the government as these two bodies will behave to protect their own corporate interests.
Whatever happens here, it needs to ensure that both the city grows appropriately and that the county is protected financially without disadvantaging either area of Cork.
This is not a "land grab". They two state bodies doing administration of local government and regardless of which ends up running which bits, it has to be in the interest of the population of Cork!
The last thing Cork needs is some fiasco of indecision like the HSE trying to site the Children's hosipital in Dublin.
What we need is a decision that makes sense, not pandering to vested interests in administration systems or populism for that matter either.
Merging was a ridiculous idea, giving you the worst of both worlds and no proper urban area but a sensible city boundary extension needs to happen.
I just don't believe letting the local authorities fight it out in the media is the way to go about it.0 -
There actually isn't any 'lovely green belt' from the old tennis village out Model Farm Road to Ballincollig.
The only way to avoid a continuous unplanned and uncoordinated mass sprawl for Cork City is for it to be under the one council leadership. There is no other way about it.
It is Cork County Council who have really made a joke of this whole process, with offering minimum amounts of land that are well within the city limits, and also the ludicrous plan for a massive amalgamation project of one super council (which would have basically been an experiment of a first of its kind anywhere in Ireland, maybe even the world).
Other than than the mature ribbon development along the model farm road running E-W ( I live on it), north and south of it beyond tennis village are undeveloped fields- there's a strip through a green belt. I want to keep it that way.
Grange, Togher, Glanmire, Killeens, Wilton, poulavone is plenty, theyre allready City, plus a bit more around them. City have done fcuk all with what they have, why give them more. Any experience (planning, roads , community groups related) with City ive had , hasn't exactly inspired confidence in their ability.
If they get the airport, it'll be renamed Cork City Airport!
Smiddy was a kick in the bo11ox for City,
McKinnon one for the County. County offer derisory, but the first I reckon in a process of negotiating, I expect some compromise. It needs to grow, but theyre deluding themselves with the McKinnon proposal.
City are all of a sudden in a rush with the wind at their backs. County could drag the sh1t out of the process.
Super council was a farce as well.
They're already is a regional planning forum and guides, their respective Developmemt plans have regard to each other.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »Standing in the middle of a field doesn't count I'm afraid. A settlement with a population of 20k is not rural by any measure.
mallow so is part of the city with your rationale..0 -
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Roger Hassenforder wrote: »Other than than the mature ribbon development along the model farm road running E-W ( I live on it), north and south of it beyond tennis village are undeveloped fields- there's a strip through a green belt. I want to keep it that way.
Not In My Back Yard, am I right???????0
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