Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

thejuggler

Whatever about Blarney and Carrigtwohill, Ballincollig is to all intents and purposes connected to the city and is an urban area. It should be included in Cork City in my view
It is farcical to see vested interests organising public meetings and creating facebook groups to keep Ballincollig county.
One would hope that central government will not be swayed by this white noise.

Time will tell

namloc1980

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

mallow so is part of the city with your rationale..

Nope you're jumping ahead of yourself there. Mallow is an urban area, it's not rural by any means. Never said it's part of the city. That was your jump in "logic". Mallow used to have an "Urban District Council" prior to their renaming and eventual abolishment. Any idea why they were called urban?

namloc1980

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Other than than the mature ribbon development along the model farm road running E-W ( I live on it), north and south of it beyond tennis village are undeveloped fields- there's a strip through a green belt. I want to keep it that way.

I presume you were outraged and objected to the County Council's zoning of 100 hectares of your strip of green belt for the Cork Science and Technology Park?

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I'm here at the moment: horizon is green hills with a few Freisan cows and a forest.
City centre all right!




"Preposterous"!!
They're towns (effectively) surrounded by countryside , they're rural rather than urban

I'm sorry but You seem to be a bit confused. If you think Ballincollig, Blarney or Carrigtwohill Or Glanmire are rural towns Because they are not physically joined up to the suburbs of Cork City then you misunderstand the entire debate, and the entire concept being discussed.

All of these towns were deliberately planned as part of the metropolitan cork area effectively functioning as satellites for the city - Providing locations for people to live could take part in the daily life of the city and economic and social terms. These places are simply not rural in character or function - They are an intrinsic part of the urban system. They are all very close to the city and have very strong commuting relationships with it. In functional terms they are part of the De Facto urban area.

Yes it is preposterous to describe these places as rural towns. Especially when your criteria is the visibility of greenfields. I can see green fields from Cork City centre.

CHealy

If it was upto me that greenway between Bishopstown / Curraheen and Ballincollig would be rezoned for a mix of social and private housing. It would include include high rise towers, blocks, and single housing to alleviate the 7000 people stuck on the housing list and create a new town as such. Its the natural progression of the city wheter the people of Ballincollig like it or not, theres almost no where else it can go.

Water John

There are plenty places for the city to go. UP is one of them you mentioned.

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

Nope you're jumping ahead of yourself there. Mallow is an urban area, it's not rural by any means. Never said it's part of the city. That was your jump in "logic". Mallow used to have an "Urban District Council" prior to their renaming and eventual abolishment. Any idea why they were called urban?

So did Clonakilty and Skibereen...
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make...if any.

Is it they're urban areas, (but not rural towns) or they're both, but because Ballincollig is urban and a rural town, but beside the city it should be part of the city...

Roger Hassenforder

Water John wrote: »

There are plenty places for the city to go. UP is one of them you mentioned.

Plenty of derelict sites too

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

I'm sorry but You seem to be a bit confused. If you think Ballincollig, Blarney or Carrigtwohill Or Glanmire are rural towns Because they are not physically joined up to the suburbs of Cork City then you misunderstand the entire debate, and the entire concept being discussed.

All of these towns were deliberately planned as part of the metropolitan cork area effectively functioning as satellites for the city - Providing locations for people to live could take part in the daily life of the city and economic and social terms. These places are simply not rural in character or function - They are an intrinsic part of the urban system. They are all very close to the city and have very strong commuting relationships with it. In functional terms they are part of the De Facto urban area.

Yes it is preposterous to describe these places as rural towns. Especially when your criteria is the visibility of greenfields. I can see green fields from Cork City centre.

Au contraire Mire, no confusion on my part other than trying to figure out what some posters are arguing!

Ballincollig, Blarney and Carrigtohill are towns in the countryside, in a rural setting (Call them satellite if you want), that doesn't mean the city should be allowed subsume them, and (while I should probably call bu11****), interesting you can see so many fields from the city centre if they're crying out for space...It may just be grass though. Plenty of space down in the dock lands idle. Should this be left for, while the city grows out in a sprawl. It's not space City council are short of, it's imagination*.

The facts are the city are arguing they want to grow the population and need room to expand (which is fair enough) as their original proposal proposed (which you should review to see what it was they were after - land and rates mainly.
They never intended to encompass these towns).
The County were having none of it: Smiddy brought in and gave City a kicking, City went bawling, so McKinnon brought in, and gave County a kicking. County offered a few bits and pieces to them, which they've correctly declined, thinking there's a pot of proverbial gold at the end of the McKinnon implementation
They're *deluding themselves if they think they're getting those towns.


I may have contradicted myself!!

Roger Hassenforder

CHealy wrote: »

Not In My Back Yard, am I right???????

Funnily enough no! I'm not anti development, I'm anti unimaginative and sprawling development with fcuk all facilities or infrastructure.
There a big enough derelict site near where I live, that has planning for a 7 storey apt block. Would love to see it rather that the current kip, that had been so since before the crash.

CHealy

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Funnily enough no! I'm not anti development, I'm anti unimaginative and sprawling development with fcuk all facilities or infrastructure.
There a big enough derelict site near where I live, that has planning for a 7 storey apt block. Would love to see it rather that the current kip, that had been so since before the crash.

Would that site be under the control of the City Council or County Council?

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

I presume you were outraged and objected to the County Council's zoning of 100 hectares of your strip of green belt for the Cork Science and Technology Park?

as outraged as I was about the docklands plan...( I'd wager on which one will be actually going ahead...)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1bn-new-cork-docklands-plan-to-double-size-of-city-452832.html

a >1billion plan to double the size of the city...
"area is about the same size as the existing city centre. The Tivoli Docks area on the north bank of the river, just east of the city, covers just over 61.5 hectares with 3km of river frontage, including the Port of Cork Millennium 2000 Park. Under the Cork City Development Plan, the City Docks project aims to provide 9,500 housing units and 29,000 jobs in the city centre and inner docklands".

So they've sat on their holes for years with such development opportunity literally under their nose, but did fcuk all, but now want to sprawl out in the countryside. I've lived in Lucan, Clondalkin, worked in Tallaght. They're abject sprawls.

You'll understand my lack of faith in the City Council making Cork any better with their track record.

Roger Hassenforder

CHealy wrote: »

Would that site be under the control of the City Council or County Council?

City

DylanGLC

Water John wrote: »

There are plenty places for the city to go. UP is one of them you mentioned.

I completely agree with this but I feel a lot of people who say this (not you) say in the same breath "but our protected views !! the shadows !! this isn't dubai !!!!!". Off topic but if every new building past Navigation Square isn't 7 stories minimum, I will be extremely dissapointed. The Elysian is 17 storeys and it can be barely seen (especially the city centre outside of the end of the South Mall and Parnell Place). If we had four more of those in that immediate area, the housing problem would be less of a problem and a load of space wouldn't have been wasted on 2000 semi detatched houses. How many apartments are in The Elysian? 200, 250? On that site that isn't huge or anything. How many two storey houses could you fit there, 20?

If we don't build up (even just making apartments 10 storeys), we will end up like Dublin. This whole argument of ruining history/culture/views is rubbish, especially in the Docklands. 6+ storeys on Patrick's Street? Sure, I can see why people would be against that (The Capitol is perfect height). 9 storeys (original One Albert Quay proposal) being too tall..? In the Docklands, right next to Ireland's tallest building, in an area which is essentially empty? Insanity.

kub

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

as outraged as I was about the docklands plan...( I'd wager on which one will be actually going ahead...)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1bn-new-cork-docklands-plan-to-double-size-of-city-452832.html

a >1billion plan to double the size of the city...
"area is about the same size as the existing city centre. The Tivoli Docks area on the north bank of the river, just east of the city, covers just over 61.5 hectares with 3km of river frontage, including the Port of Cork Millennium 2000 Park. Under the Cork City Development Plan, the City Docks project aims to provide 9,500 housing units and 29,000 jobs in the city centre and inner docklands".

So they've sat on their holes for years with such development opportunity literally under their nose, but did fcuk all, but now want to sprawl out in the countryside. I've lived in Lucan, Clondalkin, worked in Tallaght. They're abject sprawls.

You'll understand my lack of faith in the City Council making Cork any better with their track record.

Sorry, I wonder are you aware that the Cork Harbour Commissionaires own that land in Tivoli.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Lads, the way you are banging on about the Docklands is a giant red herring to the argument over why the City needs to expand its boundaries.

The Docklands isn't miles and miles of empty concrete waiting for development!

For example, much of the area around Monahan Road was where they used to keep those giant circular Shell Petrol holders, it will cost a small fortune to make that land safe for residential living (if it ever even will be?).
The City side of the Docklands is still needed for ships and brewing and the R&H Hall and the Marque and Funderland and a host of other businesses that are there right now, and the redevelopment of Blackrock Village and Pairc Ui Chaoimh are already done.

Much of Tivoli's Docklands are still being used right now. It is a living Docklands, it isn't empty space!

It is essentially an inter generational task to turn all that area from a Docklands into making it part of the City Centre proper. The housing and homeless crisis is only going to worsen here over the next 5 years. The Docklands doesn't offer the solutions to this.

Roger Hassenforder

kub wrote: »

Sorry, I wonder are you aware that the Cork Harbour Commissionaires own that land in Tivoli.

I wonder are you aware there's no such organisation, its Port of Cork(!!)..who want to move operations to Ringaskiddy if TII ever upgrade the f3ckin road!

Reputable Rog

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Lads, the way you are banging on about the Docklands is a giant red herring to the argument over why the City needs to expand its boundaries.

The Docklands isn't miles and miles of empty concrete waiting for development!

For example, much of the area around Monahan Road was where they used to keep those giant circular Shell Petrol holders, it will cost a small fortune to make that land safe for residential living (if it ever even will be?).
The City side of the Docklands is still needed for ships and brewing and the R&H Hall and the Marque and Funderland and a host of other businesses that are there right now, and the redevelopment of Blackrock Village and Pairc Ui Chaoimh are already done.

Much of Tivoli's Docklands are still being used right now. It is a living Docklands, it isn't empty space!

It is essentially an inter generational task to turn all that area from a Docklands into making it part of the City Centre proper. The housing and homeless crisis is only going to worsen here over the next 5 years. The Docklands doesn't offer the solutions to this.

The Docklands is problematic but the obstacles are not insurmountable.
There is plenty of Brownfield or sites being utilised for inappropriate development in the city, the ones that stand out to me are Sunbeam in Blackpool and the Tramore Road/Kinsale road area, interestingy the county are proposing a regeneration of their portion of Kinsale Road and the area south of the N40.
The city have undermined themselves for years, they permitted Mahon Point which is undermining the city centre, they permitted a massive extension to Wilton which of built will further undermine the city. Meanwhile the County have been much stricter on suburban retail development.
The city want it everyway, they want to increase their population to become a counterbalance to Dublin but will now end with lowest population density of any city in Ireland, way lower than Belfast, which they seem to think they can overtake, they're also for some bizzare reason looking over their shoulders at Limerick as if in reality it could ever be a viable threat to Cork as the states second city.
The City's argument does not stand up.

namloc1980

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The Docklands is problematic but the obstacles are not insurmountable.
There is plenty of Brownfield or sites being utilised for inappropriate development in the city, the ones that stand out to me are Sunbeam in Blackpool and the Tramore Road/Kinsale road area, interestingy the county are proposing a regeneration of their portion of Kinsale Road and the area south of the N40.
The city have undermined themselves for years, they permitted Mahon Point which is undermining the city centre, they permitted a massive extension to Wilton which of built will further undermine the city. Meanwhile the County have been much stricter on suburban retail development..

Have you ever been to Douglas? Cluster**** of epic proportions: two massive shopping centres, another drive thru just opened and Aldi and Lidl earmarked for the village centre. Chaotic traffic situation most of the time. All done on the County's watch.

Reputable Rog

namloc1980 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Douglas? Cluster**** of epic proportions: two massive shopping centres, another drive thru just opened and Aldi and Lidl earmarked for the village centre. Chaotic traffic situation most of the time. All done on the County's watch.

ABP are responsible for a lot of the ****e in Douglas, County opposed the development of a supermarket on the cinema site as it was in contravention of DLUTS.

namloc1980

Reputable Rog wrote: »

ABP are responsible for a lot of the ****e in Douglas, County opposed the development of a supermarket on the cinema site as it was in contravention of DLUTS.

Not true according to the County Council planning site and An Bord Pleanala report here. The County did indeed give the green light to the supermarket development. A few local NIMBYs appealed it as well as the developers who appealed some of the conditions and ABP reconfirmed the Council decision to grant permission with conditions in 2011. Sorry but you're wrong to suggest the County opposed it. This is on them.

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Douglas? Cluster**** of epic proportions: two massive shopping centres, another drive thru just opened and Aldi and Lidl earmarked for the village centre. Chaotic traffic situation most of the time. All done on the County's watch.

I'll see your retail cluster**** in Douglas and raise you Wilton!
2 Tescos
2 Dunnes
1 Supervalue
Aldi
And now another Lidl
all within 1km radius of each other, serviced by one of the finest pieces of road infrastructure in Cork, the omnishambles that is the Wilton Road and its mind numbingly nonsensical layout.

My issue in Douglas is the proliferation of fast food places allowed. Chippes everywhere.

All those juicy rate payers though!

Water John

All you need in Douglas is KC's.
Douglas has been a traffic jam for 30 years.

namloc1980

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I'll see your retail cluster**** in Douglas and raise you Wilton!
2 Tescos
2 Dunnes
1 Supervalue
Aldi
And now another Lidl
all within 1km radius of each other, serviced by one of the finest pieces of road infrastructure in Cork, the omnishambles that is the Wilton Road and its mind numbingly nonsensical layout.

My issue in Douglas is the proliferation of fast food places allowed. Chippes everywhere.

All those juicy rate payers though!

Where is the second Tesco in Wilton? Where is the SuperValu in Wilton? The newer Dunnes is in the County. That is the only Aldi in the western part of the city.

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

Where is the second Tesco in Wilton? Where is the SuperValu in Wilton? The newer Dunnes is in the County. That is the only Aldi in the western part of the city.

Tescos Dennehys Cross, Supervalue I must correct myself, it's a Centra, on Curragheen road/Rosss Av
& There's another Lidl outside my 1km radius, maybe 1250m, in Togher so I didn't include it, I didn't want to lose the run of myself

Roger Hassenforder

Water John wrote: »

All you need in Douglas is KC's.

Tru dat

kub

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I wonder are you aware there's no such organisation, its Port of Cork(!!)..who want to move operations to Ringaskiddy if TII ever upgrade the f3ckin road!

Wow well done, my mistake. Funny though when i googled Cork Harbour Commissionaires i get this http://www.portofcork.ie/index.cfm/page/porthistory

Same organisation and they still have responsibility for Tivoli.

They are planning on moving to Ringaskiddy regardless in 2019. And it is some residents in Rochestown who are delaying the M28 not the TII.

Roger Hassenforder

kub wrote: »

Wow well done, my mistake. Funny though when i googled Cork Harbour Commissionaires i get this http://www.portofcork.ie/index.cfm/page/porthistory

Same organisation and they still have responsibility for Tivoli.

They are planning on moving to Ringaskiddy regardless in 2019. And it is some residents in Rochestown who are delaying the M28 not the TII.

We won't fall out over it, sometimes people just aren't aware...
They tried moving in 2008 (I think!), the then NRA pulled the rug from the project by saying they wouldn't upgrade the road. There was an Oral hearing.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/bord-pleanála-rejects-cork-port-plan-1.825042?mode=amp

Yup, 2008. POC have been trying to move from Tivoli for years. It ain't a few Rochestown heads holding them up in their plans.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The Docklands is problematic but the obstacles are not insurmountable.
There is plenty of Brownfield or sites being utilised for inappropriate development in the city, the ones that stand out to me are Sunbeam in Blackpool and the Tramore Road/Kinsale road area, interestingy the county are proposing a regeneration of their portion of Kinsale Road and the area south of the N40.
The city have undermined themselves for years, they permitted Mahon Point which is undermining the city centre, they permitted a massive extension to Wilton which of built will further undermine the city. Meanwhile the County have been much stricter on suburban retail development.
The city want it everyway, they want to increase their population to become a counterbalance to Dublin but will now end with lowest population density of any city in Ireland, way lower than Belfast, which they seem to think they can overtake, they're also for some bizzare reason looking over their shoulders at Limerick as if in reality it could ever be a viable threat to Cork as the states second city.
The City's argument does not stand up.

The population as a whole is rising, homelessness is increasing, the council waiting list is long and rents and mortgages are unafforadle to so many. Housing is a major problem for Cork City, and will be for at least the medium term future.

91% of rentals beyond housing benefits

The Cork City urban area as a whole needs a sustainable, organised, coordinated and long term plan for its citizens.

Cork doesn't need 4 or 5 Elysian's dotted around Morrison's Island, nor does it need to have 3 bedroom semi detached housing all the way out to Midleton. There is spot in between that will meet the housing needs for Cork people. Sustainable, on the lower end of medium density housing with good communal green areas are what is needed (3/4 story apartments with green space).


I don't think Mahon Point has undermined the City centre as much as you say. There was certainly a need for a development of its nature. Where would a 12 screen cinema go, another Argos, Debehams, Tesco, McDonalds, Golden Discs, phone shops ect. ect. in the City centre? I think you are vastly over estimating how big the City centre is, and what can be done with it, to meet the needs of Cork people as a whole.

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Lads, the way you are banging on about the Docklands is a giant red herring to the argument over why the City needs to expand its boundaries.

The Docklands isn't miles and miles of empty concrete waiting for development!

For example, much of the area around Monahan Road was where they used to keep those giant circular Shell Petrol holders, it will cost a small fortune to make that land safe for residential living (if it ever even will be?).
The City side of the Docklands is still needed for ships and brewing and the R&H Hall and the Marque and Funderland and a host of other businesses that are there right now, and the redevelopment of Blackrock Village and Pairc Ui Chaoimh are already done.

Much of Tivoli's Docklands are still being used right now. It is a living Docklands, it isn't empty space!

It is essentially an inter generational task to turn all that area from a Docklands into making it part of the City Centre proper. The housing and homeless crisis is only going to worsen here over the next 5 years. The Docklands doesn't offer the solutions to this.

The Docklands is problematic but the obstacles are not insurmountable.
There is plenty of Brownfield or sites being utilised for inappropriate development in the city, the ones that stand out to me are Sunbeam in Blackpool and the Tramore Road/Kinsale road area, interestingy the county are proposing a regeneration of their portion of Kinsale Road and the area south of the N40.
The city have undermined themselves for years, they permitted Mahon Point which is undermining the city centre, they permitted a massive extension to Wilton which of built will further undermine the city. Meanwhile the County have been much stricter on suburban retail development.
The city want it everyway, they want to increase their population to become a counterbalance to Dublin but will now end with lowest population density of any city in Ireland, way lower than Belfast, which they seem to think they can overtake, they're also for some bizzare reason looking over their shoulders at Limerick as if in reality it could ever be a viable threat to Cork as the states second city.
The City's argument does not stand up.

I laughed at the bit about the county council being strict on retail development; see Douglas, which was encouraged and permitted by the county council. Your commentary on the density of the enlarged city is equally deluded and misinformed.