Cork council merger plans to be axed but extension of city boundary recommended

FrStone

kub wrote: »

By telling a known international urban planner that he is wrong ?

I wonder, what is Smiddy anyway, an accountant is it and also used to be the boss of Beamish and Crawford ?

He also told 2 professors from UCC who were part of his team that they were wrong to vote against the amalgamation, again what would these people know?

Sure if you want to read the article and tell me which of his criticisms of the corporation are incorrect.

KCAccidental

Smiddy is someone with no expertise whatsoever on urban planning, who presided over a flawed plan that was the worst of both worlds and was clearly put in there for political reasons.

The fact that he is now swanning around as if he is some sort of expert is absolutely laughable.

All this stuff about towns losing identity and there wasn't a peep out of him or anyone about Town councils being abolished in 2014.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

mire wrote: »

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Smiddy-launches-scathing-criticism-of-Cork-City-Council-over-boundary-issue-f1ed4d42-be12-4fcb-a4f8-bc0bb7968b74-ds

Poor Alf*, he's losing the plot. Showing his true colours.

* This is the same person who had been tasked with chairing the first local government review group for Cork. Is it any wonder his report has been widely discredited and that he managed to split the committee?

The smell of manure off that article is palpable.

Cork County Council want the best of both worlds (and have had it for so long at this stage). They get the higher rates income of an urban area without having to deal with the problems that come with running an urban area!
Urban areas get more income in, but they have more problems that cause income to go out.

There are far more more homeless, there's more drugs, more robberies, more fires, more criminals, bigger housing waiting lists and more general anti social behaviour that comes with running and trying to maintain any urban area the world over.
There's also higher rates for businesses, higher rents and mortgages for people who want a home to live in, more danger for their Gardai who try to do their job and the list can go on and on and on.


Make no mistake about it, the City of Cork is suffering from this issue in a major way. And all the hot air rhetoric from the Cork County Council or Smiddy or property developers like O Flynn won't change the facts on the matter.

These are some of the issues that are exacerbated in Cork City because it is being squeezed by the County.

€5m spent tackling homelessness in Cork last year

Cork City’s commercial rates hiked in chaotic budget meeting

Pressure to equip Cork gardaí for armed conflict

Average rent is now at €1,100 in Cork city

Child finds bags of heroin in Cork as residents claim they are 'living in fear' of drug dealers

Rising rents: ‘I don’t want to share a room with three others’

Roger Hassenforder

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The smell of manure off that article is palpable.

Cork County Council want the best of both worlds (and have had it for so long at this stage). They get the higher rates income of an urban area without having to deal with the problems that come with running an urban area!
Urban areas get more income in, but they have more problems that cause income to go out.

There are far more more homeless, there's more drugs, more robberies, more fires, more criminals, bigger housing waiting lists and more general anti social behaviour that comes with running and trying to maintain any urban area the world over.
There's also higher rates for businesses, higher rents and mortgages for people who want a home to live in, more danger for their Gardai who try to do their job and the list can go on and on and on.


Make no mistake about it, the City of Cork is suffering from this issue in a major way. And all the hot air rhetoric from the Cork County Council or Smiddy or property developers like O Flynn won't change the facts on the matter.

These are some of the issues that are exacerbated in Cork City because it is being squeezed by the County.

€5m spent tackling homelessness in Cork last year

Cork City’s commercial rates hiked in chaotic budget meeting

Pressure to equip Cork gardaí for armed conflict

Average rent is now at €1,100 in Cork city

Child finds bags of heroin in Cork as residents claim they are 'living in fear' of drug dealers

Rising rents: ‘I don’t want to share a room with three others’

Got as far as your first link where Gould is cribbing about homelessness in the same breath he's voting to reduce LPT:

https://www.thecork.ie/2016/09/28/sinn-fein-cork-city-councillors-to-vote-to-reduce-property-tax-by-full-15-cllr-thomas-gould/


County cut by 5% so "they wouldn't affect services"
https://topcomhomes.com/helpful-information/cork-city-council-has-voted-to-reduce-its-local-property-tax-for-2016-by-10

Shortage of housing is a result of poor policy (among other things, least of which is the County Council)


Irish LAs aren't policing Authorities, can't see relevance of some of your other posts

Reputable Rog

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The smell of manure off that article is palpable.

Cork County Council want the best of both worlds (and have had it for so long at this stage). They get the higher rates income of an urban area without having to deal with the problems that come with running an urban area!
Urban areas get more income in, but they have more problems that cause income to go out.

There are far more more homeless, there's more drugs, more robberies, more fires, more criminals, bigger housing waiting lists and more general anti social behaviour that comes with running and trying to maintain any urban area the world over.
There's also higher rates for businesses, higher rents and mortgages for people who want a home to live in, more danger for their Gardai who try to do their job and the list can go on and on and on.


Make no mistake about it, the City of Cork is suffering from this issue in a major way. And all the hot air rhetoric from the Cork County Council or Smiddy or property developers like O Flynn won't change the facts on the matter.

These are some of the issues that are exacerbated in Cork City because it is being squeezed by the County.

€5m spent tackling homelessness in Cork last year

Cork City’s commercial rates hiked in chaotic budget meeting

Pressure to equip Cork gardaí for armed conflict

Average rent is now at €1,100 in Cork city

Child finds bags of heroin in Cork as residents claim they are 'living in fear' of drug dealers

Rising rents: ‘I don’t want to share a room with three others’

I fail to see how Armed conflict and heroin are a result of a Local Authority boundary, outdated or otherwise.
Crime and drugs do not adhere to invisible lines. Plenty of trouble in County areas as well.

mire

Smiddy is doing huge damage to the county councils case and it's attempts to block the boundary extension. He is coming across really poorly here. Not only is he behaving in a childish and petulant manner, he's also contradicting himself left right and centre. He sounds like he doesn't actually understand the basic issues.

No one who has studied Corks local government structures would deny that the city needs to expand, this has been the overwhelming conclusion of almost every expert in the field come apart from Alf himself. An accountant.

Foolishly, he has attempted to discount and ridicule the credentials and expertise of the two academics on his own committee, as well as the Birmingham professor who peer reviewed his report, and the members of the McKinnon group. His approach has been based on questioning the value of evidence and experts, in the same way that Michael Gove and Donald Trump do. Instead he's asking people to to take his word as drives around glanmire talking about people in that locality taking cows to the mart in Fermoy. Glanmire is a satellite town in Metropolitan Cork not an agricultural village.

He highlights some of the issues in Cork city like vacancy in places like South Main Street etc. And the need for investment in the city generally. However he has no real grasp of what's going on because one of the reasons that the city struggles financially is that it has it tax and rates base of less than 125,000 people but supporting an effective city of about three hundred thousand people. This is usually addressed by allowing the city to expand gradually and sensibly. Despite examining this issue as part of his chairmanship all seems to have no clue.

Anyway he is creating huge problems in my opinion and his swipes at Simon coveney and Micheal Martin will certainly be counterproductive. There is no Revolution going on here only a orchestrated campaign based on the evening echo and a few letters to the Irish Examiner about leader funding and other nonsense.

Yesterday's dispatch was a new level of craziness though. Alf, you messed up in your chairmanship, you got it wrong. You just don't seem to understand the fundamentals. You don't need to keep proving it.

D'Agger

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I fail to see how Armed conflict and heroin are a result of a Local Authority boundary, outdated or otherwise.
Crime and drugs do not adhere to invisible lines. Plenty of trouble in County areas as well.

I believe the point being made is there's generally a higher concentration of conflict and drug use/dealing in urban areas which requires high levels of spending to combat. There's more of a drain on City budget than County from those types of problems despite the County collecting high rates from businesses etc.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

He highlights some of the issues in Cork city like vacancy in places like South Main Street etc. And the need for investment in the city generally. However he has no real grasp of what's going on because one of the reasons that the city struggles financially is that it has it tax and rates base of less than 125,000 people but supporting an effective city of about three hundred thousand people. This is usually addressed by allowing the city to expand gradually and sensibly. Despite examining this issue as part of his chairmanship all seems to have no clue.

this guff is being trotted out a lot, the city supporting these multitudes of people without the financial benefits, as if these 300,000 people are living in the city but working in the County, so the County gets all the rates from the employers. 20,000 people go into Little Island every day. They're not all coming from the City, they're coming form all over the City and County. Certainly a percentage of them are living in the City. But where do most of them spend a significant amount of their disposal income? The City. One of the biggest commuter corridors is the Mallow Road and the Midelton Road- people coming into the "Metro" area to Work, from the County.

Cork already is effectively state subsidised - 9 of the biggest employers in the City area are State/public bodies, 75,000 people working, mainly in retailing and services. Services to people in the Metro Area, not just the City. If (your figure of) 125,000 people live in the City, these suggests 62% of the population of Cork are working adults... We both know this isnt the case, so where are all these people coming from...
(albeit on 2007 data)
.

A significant amount of funding for the housing buget is provided from Central Government via grants, not from the Council's own coffers. The biggest problem City Council has is poor leadership and innovation.

The very same City in the first meaningful reform of Local Government finance in decades decide to cut this source of funding. I recall reading somewhere, 5 local authorities are effectively self funding through rates, goods and services: the 4 Dublin and Cork County.


Smiddy being an accountant probably was motivated by the numbers, and the numbers said to him, The County is by far the bigger economic driver for the region, and should absorb the City as a Municipal District, bearing in mind the
Ballincollig/Carrigaline Municipal District has over 70,000 people in it. Well over half of Cork's population. The County has 8 such MDs, one more wouldnt make much of a difference to it.

However, in the interests of subsidiarity, local government, heritage etc., I agree the City needs an expansion, but it should be limited. More than what the County are offering, but not much more. Smiddy hit the nail on the head describing City's less than spectacular achievements, allowing MacKinnon boundary would ruin the County from Youghal to Kenmare. We'd all lose.

Water John

There is nobody arguing against the city being expanded. So some posters fighting for it are in fact fighting a battle that doesn't exist.
We are down simply, by how much?
Do we want a tight city, maximising the use of the space within it, or do we want another urban sprawl?

D'Agger

What parts of the county would most agree upon being incorporated into the City?

Douglas & Ballincollig?

Roger Hassenforder

D'Agger wrote: »

What parts of the county would most agree upon being incorporated into the City?

Douglas & Ballincollig?

Douglas, Grange, Wilton certainly, they're a no brainer.

I'd give as far as Glanmire on the East, Glashaboy is a nice natural boundary
A bit beyond Fox and Hounds, but not to Whitechurch!

CHealy

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Douglas, Grange, Wilton certainly, they're a no brainer.

I'd give as far as Glanmire on the East, Glashaboy is a nice natural boundary
A bit beyond Fox and Hounds, but not to Whitechurch!

What about to the West?

Roger Hassenforder

CHealy wrote: »

What about to the West?

poulavone roundabout maybe, the N22 link road could be the boundary there

flaneur

Sigh!

This is starting to look as likely to work out successfully as Brexit.

Water John

Well, if both sides have realistic expectations, it can be done. The Hoff is giving a good outline, there.
The Brits are deluded ATM.

mire

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

this guff is being trotted out a lot, the city supporting these multitudes of people without the financial benefits, as if these 300,000 people are living in the city but working in the County, so the County gets all the rates from the employers. 20,000 people go into Little Island every day. They're not all coming from the City, they're coming form all over the City and County. Certainly a percentage of them are living in the City. But where do most of them spend a significant amount of their disposal income? The City. One of the biggest commuter corridors is the Mallow Road and the Midelton Road- people coming into the "Metro" area to Work, from the County.

Cork already is effectively state subsidised - 9 of the biggest employers in the City area are State/public bodies, 75,000 people working, mainly in retailing and services. Services to people in the Metro Area, not just the City. If (your figure of) 125,000 people live in the City, these suggests 62% of the population of Cork are working adults... We both know this isnt the case, so where are all these people coming from...
(albeit on 2007 data)
.

A significant amount of funding for the housing buget is provided from Central Government via grants, not from the Council's own coffers. The biggest problem City Council has is poor leadership and innovation.

The very same City in the first meaningful reform of Local Government finance in decades decide to cut this source of funding. I recall reading somewhere, 5 local authorities are effectively self funding through rates, goods and services: the 4 Dublin and Cork County.


Smiddy being an accountant probably was motivated by the numbers, and the numbers said to him, The County is by far the bigger economic driver for the region, and should absorb the City as a Municipal District, bearing in mind the
Ballincollig/Carrigaline Municipal District has over 70,000 people in it. Well over half of Cork's population. The County has 8 such MDs, one more wouldnt make much of a difference to it.

However, in the interests of subsidiarity, local government, heritage etc., I agree the City needs an expansion, but it should be limited. More than what the County are offering, but not much more. Smiddy hit the nail on the head describing City's less than spectacular achievements, allowing MacKinnon boundary would ruin the County from Youghal to Kenmare. We'd all lose.

The issue about the boundary restricting the city's ability to fund itself sustainably certainly isn't guff. I think you have misread it -; at present cork city has a taxation base which includes about 125,000 people and 6500 businesses. In other words, a huge part of its suburban and metropolitan constituency (residents and businesses) reside in a different jurisdiction and paid taxes and rates there. In most urban areas the solution to this has been to gradually expand the boundary of the city grows. In cork however this has not happened for 50 years and as a result you have a huge mismatch between the administrative city and the functional city. This makes no sense as this city effectively serves a functional area of about 300,000 people. This is not sustainable; it is not in line with best practice in local government and service delivery.

Unfortunately, alf smiddy still refuses to accept this basic principle, and if the conclusions of many experts in this field. He prefers his one liners and 'one cork' argument. He has his hands over his ears metaphorically speaking; spouting nonsense about farmers and chippers. His priority seems to be based solely on protecting the status quo of certain interests in cork county. This is despite widespread acknowledgment that the city boundary needs to expand significantly. Further evidence of his weird views on this matter can be seen in his references to limerick and Waterford. Somehow, Alf thinks that these two cities are somehow powering ahead and prospering! He thinks cork should follow the leads of these two places, to let themselves be run by rural dominated authorities. It might be no harm if Alf pays a visit to the city centres of limerick or Waterford; I really like both of these cities but they are 15 to 20 years behind cork in development and economic terms. If Alf thinks that these are the cities that cork should emulate, he really needs to reflect. Cork should be a little bit more ambitious than that.
Your suggestion that because cork county council is bigger it should 'absorb the city' as one of its municipal districts is bizarre. Yes this is what alf smiddy wanted but there is good reason why this has been rejected by almost anybody with any knowledge and expertise in the field. Thankfully, the accountants logic has not prevailed in this instance. Nowhere in the world is a city run in this way - as a subservient to a rural authority.

Your suggestion for a modest expansion of the boundary is probably appropriate for the mid 1980s. This boundary extension needs to be suitable for 2050.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

The issue about the boundary restricting the city's ability to fund itself sustainably certainly isn't guff. I think you have misread it -; at present cork city has a taxation base which includes about 125,000 people and 6500 businesses. In other words, a huge part of its suburban and metropolitan constituency (residents and businesses) reside in a different jurisdiction and paid taxes and rates there. In most urban areas the solution to this has been to gradually expand the boundary of the city grows. In cork however this has not happened for 50 years and as a result you have a huge mismatch between the administrative city and the functional city. This makes no sense as this city effectively serves a functional area of about 300,000 people. This is not sustainable; it is not in line with best practice in local government and service delivery.

Unfortunately, alf smiddy still refuses to accept this basic principle, and if the conclusions of many experts in this field. He prefers his one liners and 'one cork' argument. He has his hands over his ears metaphorically speaking; spouting nonsense about farmers and chippers. His priority seems to be based solely on protecting the status quo of certain interests in cork county. This is despite widespread acknowledgment that the city boundary needs to expand significantly. Further evidence of his weird views on this matter can be seen in his references to limerick and Waterford. Somehow, Alf thinks that these two cities are somehow powering ahead and prospering! He thinks cork should follow the leads of these two places, to let themselves be run by rural dominated authorities. It might be no harm if Alf pays a visit to the city centres of limerick or Waterford; I really like both of these cities but they are 15 to 20 years behind cork in development and economic terms. If Alf thinks that these are the cities that cork should emulate, he really needs to reflect. Cork should be a little bit more ambitious than that.
Your suggestion that because cork county council is bigger it should 'absorb the city' as one of its municipal districts is bizarre. Yes this is what alf smiddy wanted but there is good reason why this has been rejected by almost anybody with any knowledge and expertise in the field. Thankfully, the accountants logic has not prevailed in this instance. Nowhere in the world is a city run in this way - as a subservient to a rural authority.

Your suggestion for a modest expansion of the boundary is probably appropriate for the mid 1980s. This boundary extension needs to be suitable for 2050.

The then City manager in 2005 prepared a report which would petition for an extension which ironically more or less matches the compromise proposal made by the County recently, if it was suitable then it is suitable now.

DylanGLC

This isn't exact as, if I'm being honest, I am only really familiar with the city centre and the south east area of the suburbs (Douglas are). For me, even from just looking at a map, this would make most sense. It brings in all of the areas around the city that are basically the city anyway (Douglas, Grange, Rochestown, Moneygourney, Glanmire, etc), brings in two main business/industrial areaareas (Little Island and the Airport), keeps Passage West, Blarney, Carrigtoughal and Carrigaline in the county and gives the city a lot of area (especially in terms south) to expand further. For me, this would be the best of both worlds with the Mackinnon and County Council proposals. First is a simple Google Maps boundary, second is a Google Earth one with the current city boundary shown in green. Obviously, neither are not 100% exact.

Water John

I think the North and South reach of your map is reasonably ok. The West and East are too far, Baalincollig lands South nor any lands East of the M8 should remain in the County.

mire

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The then City manager in 2005 prepared a report which would petition for an extension which ironically more or less matches the compromise proposal made by the County recently, if it was suitable then it is suitable now.

That's wrong. The 'compromise' proposal is much smaller than the 2005 extension application.

Reputable Rog

mire wrote: »

That's wrong. The 'compromise' proposal is much smaller than the 2005 extension application.

They didn't make an application in 2005. They haven't made an application since the early 60's.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

-; at present cork city has a taxation base which includes about 125,000 people and 6500 businesses. In other words, a huge part of its suburban and metropolitan constituency (residents and businesses) reside in a different jurisdiction and paid taxes and rates there. In most urban areas the solution to this has been to gradually expand the boundary of the city grows. In cork however this has not happened for 50 years and as a result you have a huge mismatch between the administrative city and the functional city. This makes no sense as this city effectively serves a functional area of about 300,000 people. This is not sustainable; it is not in line with best practice in local government and service delivery.

What does this even mean?

a huge part of its suburban and metropolitan constituency (residents and businesses) reside in a different jurisdiction and paid taxes and rates there.

So?
This applies in almost all cities. It's not a valid argument. Should Dublin City absorb parts of Rathdown, Fingal, Dun Laoighre? Under your rationale they should...

Let's confine ourselves to facts from above:
120,000 live in the City.
75,000 work there.

Either 61% of the population of Cork City are working adults or a significant portion of the workforce employed in Cork City are from outside it's functional area, the opposite of what they are arguing?

effectively, Cork City has become a rump and glorified shopping centre for the people from the "metro" area, where the majority of people live Hence Smiddys (not mine!!) argument that the larger absorb the smaller, the smaller almost redundant at this stage.

The City argument can be distilled thus:
You're more successful/bigger/better /richer then us- we want some of your pie, so must you suffer to our advantage.

Cork City needs room to grow, but this need for room doesn't bestow some right to abdorb vast regions of the County merely because they're contiguous. Cork isn't the second city on the island, nor the "real capital" as other delusion it's would have. We should be looking to offer something different to the sprawl Dublin offers.

There needs to be a reasoned discussion between the two, where agreement is reached/brokered through negotiation, where the delivery of services to the people can be best delivered, not pandering to some historical chip on a Cork mans shoulder about Cork being the second city.
Cork should develop and grow as a region, in which the city as well as the county has a voice.

Roger Hassenforder

DylanGLC wrote: »

This isn't exact as, if I'm being honest, I am only really familiar with the city centre and the south east area of the suburbs (Douglas are). For me, even from just looking at a map, this would make most sense. It brings in all of the areas around the city that are basically the city anyway (Douglas, Grange, Rochestown, Moneygourney, Glanmire, etc), brings in two main business/industrial areaareas (Little Island and the Airport), keeps Passage West, Blarney, Carrigtoughal and Carrigaline in the county and gives the city a lot of area (especially in terms south) to expand further. For me, this would be the best of both worlds with the Mackinnon and County Council proposals. First is a simple Google Maps boundary, second is a Google Earth one with the current city boundary shown in green. Obviously, neither are not 100% exact. ]

Not a bad, but as per John, you've gone too far west and east.
id include passage west as well, that salient could be evened out along some natural boundary near Carrigaline.

Roger Hassenforder

mire wrote: »

That's wrong. The 'compromise' proposal is much smaller than the 2005 extension application.

And that 2005 map belies their current argument.

It was only ever about land and money.
It was never about "population growth". They didn't want the people of Ballincollig or Blarney or Carrigaline or Carrigtohill in 2005. But Little Island? "Oh yes please, juicy rates but no people to worry about...", hence the bulge in the map. All too obvious.

pwurple

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

The City argument can be distilled thus:
You're more successful/bigger/better /richer then us- we want some of your pie, so must you suffer to our advantage.

There is no suffering required here. We are all Cork together, both city and county, it's not a Them vs Us thing going on here. This realignment is to everyone's advantage.

Cork county council is a broad area, and given the removal of the town councils, it's an absolutely enormous area to administer. Towns and rural areas simply have different requirements to city areas.

Douglas is part of the city by every definition except on paper. Does any resident of Douglas consider themselves rural? Then why not just redraw the line and have the city administration look after it. Otherwise the county council is left to look after towns, rural & also a large chunk of the city. To what end? Concentrate their expertise on the County. OR, combine the city and county councils together. Because it makes no sense for the city council to administer only a fraction of the urban area.

Divide it rationally.

Roger Hassenforder

pwurple wrote: »

There is no suffering required here. We are all Cork together, both city and county, it's not a Them vs Us thing going on here. This realignment is to everyone's advantage.
.

I dont think so, what advantage does MacKinnon offer to the County Council?

pwurple wrote: »

Cork county council is a broad area, and given the removal of the town councils, it's an absolutely enormous area to administer. Towns and rural areas simply have different requirements to city areas.

they replaced the Town Councils with Municipal Districts. Not a massive difference, as anything serious (Roads, Capital, Water Services, Planning, Corporate, HR) was done centrally/Divisionally.

pwurple wrote: »

Douglas is part of the city by every definition except on paper. Does any resident of Douglas consider themselves rural? Then why not just redraw the line and have the city administration look after it
Divide it rationally.

Agree with this bit!

Water John

Douglas is a long way inside the maps above. Haven't seen any one seen arguing for Douglas to stay rural.
KC's becomes part of the conurbation.

UDCs gave towns their own rates, often lower and their own team of workers. Great loss, thanks Big Phil.

KCAccidental

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

they replaced the Town Councils with Municipal Districts. Not a massive difference, as anything serious (Roads, Capital, Water Services, Planning, Corporate, HR) was done centrally/Divisionally.

It clearly is when Smiddy is going around whipping up hysteria about Town "identity"

Ballincollig's municipal district is bigger than the city council area FFS

Roger Hassenforder

KCAccidental wrote: »

It clearly is when Smiddy is going around whipping up hysteria about Town "identity"

Ballincollig's municipal district is bigger than the city council area FFS

Sure west cork MD is bigger than most counties bar about 5 of them

Reputable Rog

I heard Smiddy on the radio this morning and he was the most impressive of all the contributors. The Fishmonger who met the Queen was appalling, hasn't a clue.
The Labour Party rep was a complete gob****e as well going on about how the City Council had an anchor tenant lined up for North Main Street shopping centre and tnus was his rationale for the extension of the boundary.