The GFA and how consent is reached and legislated for

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

This didn't get much publicity in this part of Ireland:

Lord Kilclooney says nationalists 'are not equal' to unionists


https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/08/31/news/lord-kilclooney-says-nationalists-are-not-equal-to-unionists-1124541/

A new take on we won't have a taig about the place.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP hasn't climbed down, I didn't see any such climb down in her speech. The former Mayor of Belfast from Sinn Fein was saying the argument has been won within broader Unionist opinion for an Irish language act. I don't know how he has come to that conclusion or who he has spoken to, but it is most certainly bollocks.

I don't know why Sinn Fein think Unionist people are idiots to think we believe such tripe.

You don't think Arlene's language is different from a few months ago?
You aren't listening hard enough. She is climbing down and trying her best to be stateswoman like while doing it.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP hasn't climbed down, I didn't see any such climb down in her speech. The former Mayor of Belfast from Sinn Fein was saying the argument has been won within broader Unionist opinion for an Irish language act. I don't know how he has come to that conclusion or who he has spoken to, but it is most certainly bollocks.

I don't know why Sinn Fein think Unionist people are idiots to think we believe such tripe.

You don't think Arlene's language is different from a few months ago?
You aren't listening hard enough. She is climbing down and trying her best to be stateswoman like while doing it.

Not particularly, most of the party don't back it.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Not particularly, most of the party don't back it.

Didn't look like that to me. They seemed very enthusiastic.

Stop the silly denial stuff here, her tone was completely different, I thought she was gonna utter a cupla focail. She portrayed the DUP as almost rabid Gaelgoirs

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't look like that to me. They seemed very enthusiastic.

Stop the silly denial stuff here, her tone was completely different, I thought she was gonna utter a cupla focail. She portrayed the DUP as almost rabid Gaelgoirs

Quite the climbdown alright. From this to that:

Gregory Campbell at DUP conference: “On behalf of our party let me say clearly, and slowly so that Caitra Ruane and Gerry Adams understand, we will never agree to an Irish Language Act at Stormont and we will treat their entire wish list as no more than toilet paper. They better get used to it.”

Arlene did very well tonight and looked the part of a political leader.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wanting the same language rights as every where else on these islands is sectarian??

Yes, it is.

Because Northern Ireland is not the rest of this island.

A Minority Languages Act which recognises the rights and aspirations of both communities is the only way forward in Northern Ireland.

The desire on both sides of the extreme - SF and DUP - to crush the other is sickening. You ask why I put more blame on SF? Simple, they claim to represent my view and the view of other nationalists, but they don't, they represent the view of hate-filled sectarian nationalists who want to see the end of unionism, a view I cannot agree with.

Junkyard Tom

It's disheartening to say the least - the DUP have made the north internally ungovernable. It's so bad now that direct rule will may well be the best way to resolve the outstanding agreements/issues. The DUP may be able to prevent anything from happening from Westminster for a year or two but will almost certainly return to political insignificance.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

You ask why I put more blame on SF?

It's your thing, and you are relentless. 50 of 90 MLAs support a stand-alone ILA yet this is sectarian SF something something...

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's disheartening to say the least - the DUP have made the north internally ungovernable. It's so bad now that direct rule will may well be the best way to resolve the outstanding agreements/issues. The DUP may be able to prevent anything from happening from Westminster for a year or two but will almost certainly return to political insignificance.

They couldn't be any more politically insignificant than SF, refusing to take seats in Government in Dublin, refusing to take seats in Government in Belfast, and refusing to even take seats in Parliament in London. If you want a definition of impotent politics, that is it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it is.

Because Northern Ireland is not the rest of this island.

A Minority Languages Act which recognises the rights and aspirations of both communities is the only way forward in Northern Ireland.

The desire on both sides of the extreme - SF and DUP - to crush the other is sickening. You ask why I put more blame on SF? Simple, they claim to represent my view and the view of other nationalists, but they don't, they represent the view of hate-filled sectarian nationalists who want to see the end of unionism, a view I cannot agree with.

Wow, all those people who voted for SF are 'hate filled sectarian nationalists? Including all those who have lost faith in the SDLP?

Quite an extremist point of view you have there. I will stick to my viewpoint that you don't have a clue what has gone on since the GFA and what has led to this crossroads for Ireland.

Maybe you could list the rights, social and cultural the 'hate filled sectarian nationalists' are blocking on unionists? As you understand it of course.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

They couldn't be any more politically insignificant than SF, refusing to take seats in Government in Dublin, refusing to take seats in Government in Belfast, and refusing to even take seats in Parliament in London. If you want a definition of impotent politics, that is it.

SF has no interest in swearing allegiance to Mrs Windsor and legitimising Westminster's governing of the gerrymandered failed statelet. If you hadn't noticed they've been moving the political centre-of-gravity away from Westminster not toward it.

Unionists lost thier majority so now they don't care about Stormont, consequences be damned. The British suspended Stormont because Unionists couldn't be civil with their nationalist neighbours, Paisley then proved it by collapsing the Sunningdale Agreement. 45 years later and Paisley's party has done it again, they're consistent if nothing else.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it is.

Because Northern Ireland is not the rest of this island.

A Minority Languages Act which recognises the rights and aspirations of both communities is the only way forward in Northern Ireland.

The desire on both sides of the extreme - SF and DUP - to crush the other is sickening. You ask why I put more blame on SF? Simple, they claim to represent my view and the view of other nationalists, but they don't, they represent the view of hate-filled sectarian nationalists who want to see the end of unionism, a view I cannot agree with.

Both Scotland and Wales have minority language acts. The Irish Gov. also support the introduction of an Irish Language Act.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's your thing, and you are relentless. 50 of 90 MLAs support a stand-alone ILA yet this is sectarian SF something something...

IF 50 of 90 MLAs supported taking the vote away from Catholics, would that make it a good thing? I would say no, I am sure you would too.

So 50 of 90 MLAs supporting an Irish Language Act does not necessarily make it a good thing.

A little compromise and a Minority Languages Act and we are all in the same place.

A Little Pony

People going on about it being ungovernable and direct rule coming in (let's pray to the spaghetti god this happens), by failing to acknowledge the fundamental flaw to the Good Friday Agreement. Mandatory power sharing governance does not work, hasn't worked and never will work.

If you can't vote a party into government and out of government that system is fundamentally flawed and is always doomed to failure. It is the only government in Western Europe which has such a system, take away all the major differences between the Protestant parties and Catholic parties and it still wouldn't work.

The reason being that every party has it's agenda, it's driving issues, socially liberal and leftist parties are never going to be able to govern with social conservative and right wing parties on a mandatory basis forever and ever which seems like the situation in Ulster.


No one has outlined what an Irish language act would do, what changes would we see in everyday life, would the road signs change? Would Protestants be forced to learn it in secondary education like they are in the Irish Republic? Unacceptable if that is the case.  

How much would it cost? How much would a minority language act with Ulster Scots included in it cost? Would the school curriculum change to include teaching on both? Linda Ervine teaches Irish in East Belfast and it seems to me to be a much more sensible idea to make it a local issue.

I don't see what gain it has to introduce it into a place which is not a normal society politically via law and force Protestants to learn it in the education system. From what I am hearing is you have more chance of Gay Marriage being introduced here than an Irish language act.

The DUP would have a much easier time dealing with gay Marriage based on the fact that many Unionists would be homosexual and come from that background. With the documentary that was on BBC three on DUP voters, gay marriage wasn't a big issue among the voter base, it wasn't that controversial, the only people who find it controversial are the deeply held religious beliefs from Protestants and Catholic.

It most certainly isn't a big issue among the Unionist base but an ILA is a much tougher sell, a bigger issue for multiple reasons. I don't see any evidence from the Sinn Fein ex Belfast mayor who claimed the argument was won on the issue within the broader Unionist community, I haven't seen any evidence of that whatsoever, I don't see any big calls for it from where I am from or know anyone who is demanding it.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

People going on about it being ungovernable and direct rule coming in (let's pray to the spaghetti god this happens), by failing to acknowledge the fundamental flaw to the Good Friday Agreement. Mandatory power sharing governance does not work, hasn't worked and never will work.

If you can't vote a party into government and out of government that system is fundamentally flawed and is always doomed to failure. It is the only government in Western Europe which has such a system, take away all the major differences between the Protestant parties and Catholic parties and it still wouldn't work.

The reason being that every party has it's agenda, it's driving issues, socially liberal and leftist parties are never going to be able to govern with social conservative and right wing parties on a mandatory basis forever and ever which seems like the situation in Ulster.


No one has outlined what an Irish language act would do, what changes would we see in everyday life, would the road signs change? Would Protestants be forced to learn it in secondary education like they are in the Irish Republic? Unacceptable if that is the case.  

How much would it cost? How much would a minority language act with Ulster Scots included in it cost? Would the school curriculum change to include teaching on both? Linda Ervine teaches Irish in East Belfast and it seems to me to be a much more sensible idea to make it a local issue.

I don't see what gain it has to introduce it into a place which is not a normal society politically via law and force Protestants to learn it in the education system. From what I am hearing is you have more chance of Gay Marriage being introduced here than an Irish language act.

The DUP would have a much easier time dealing with gay Marriage based on the fact that many Unionists would be homosexual and come from that background. With the documentary that was on BBC three on DUP voters, gay marriage wasn't a big issue among the voter base, it wasn't that controversial, the only people who find it controversial are the deeply held religious beliefs from Protestants and Catholic.

It most certainly isn't a big issue among the Unionist base but an ILA is a much tougher sell, a bigger issue for multiple reasons. I don't see any evidence from the Sinn Fein ex Belfast mayor who claimed the argument was won on the issue within the broader Unionist community, I haven't seen any evidence of that whatsoever, I don't see any big calls for it from where I am from or know anyone who is demanding it.

Neither does suprematist bigoted rule work either.
The GFA is the best we have and would work fine if the DUP didn't have to be forced to understand what equality and democracy means.

jm08

A Little Pony wrote: »

No one has outlined what an Irish language act would do, what changes would we see in everyday life, would the road signs change? Would Protestants be forced to learn it in secondary education like they are in the Irish Republic? Unacceptable if that is the case.

How much would it cost? How much would a minority language act with Ulster Scots included in it cost? Would the school curriculum change to include teaching on both? Linda Ervine teaches Irish in East Belfast and it seems to me to be a much more sensible idea to make it a local issue.

Here you go - Conradh na Gaeilge's proposals. They have costed it at about 4m per year.

https://cnag.ie/en/get-involved/current-campaigns/irish-language-act.html

A 50,000 bursary that helped send 100 people to go to a summer school in the Donegal gaeltacht was pulled which has really annoyed nationalists in NI.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38422550

A Little Pony

jm08 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

No one has outlined what an Irish language act would do, what changes would we see in everyday life, would the road signs change? Would Protestants be forced to learn it in secondary education like they are in the Irish Republic? Unacceptable if that is the case.  

How much would it cost? How much would a minority language act with Ulster Scots included in it cost? Would the school curriculum change to include teaching on both? Linda Ervine teaches Irish in East Belfast and it seems to me to be a much more sensible idea to make it a local issue.

Here you go - Conradh na Gaeilge's proposals. They have costed it at about 4m per year.

https://cnag.ie/en/get-involved/current-campaigns/irish-language-act.html

A 50,000 bursary that helped send 100 people to go to a summer school in the Donegal gaeltacht was pulled which has really annoyed nationalists in NI.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38422550

If I remember rightly this was debated on the Nolan show with Nelson McCausland and he found the costing was wrong on many levels and it would certainly cost more than 4 million. I don't even believe people who want it think it would cost just 4 million a year.

They want Irish language available on street signs if 50% want it, so basically you will have areas with it and areas like the Shankill without Irish on street signs. Bizarre but there you go. The education section just ignores the fact that Protestant children won't want to learn Irish in schools. 

Even skimming through the document here it is a bit of a nightmare when you are used to English having to skip past the Irish part before you get to the English part is a bit annoying too. It also mentions that Irish would be required on road signs, would that not bring complications for learner drivers? 

Also it mentions the BBC saying the BBC would need to spend £10 million a year on it. I hate the BBC, I don't want to pay for a TV license, I think the license fee should be scrapped, why no mention of people not in favour of the BBC? I don't want to contribute to it.

jm08

A Little Pony wrote: »

If I remember rightly this was debated on the Nolan show with Nelson McCausland and he found the costing was wrong on many levels and it would certainly cost more than 4 million. I don't even believe people who want it think it would cost just 4 million a year.

McCausland has an article in Belfast Telegraph where his main concern is:

A stand-alone Irish Language Act would move this process into top gear and provide a legal basis for implementing the Sinn Fein vision of an overwhelmingly Gaelic Northern Ireland, one that would be a cold house for unionists.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/nelson-mccausland-a-standalone-irish-language-act-is-divisive-and-ignores-ulsterscots-rich-heritage-35618555.html

He has little to say about the cost. If you read that Conrad na Gaeilge document, the start up costs would be about 18m over 5 years, and implementation after that would be 2m per year.

They want Irish language available on street signs if 50% want it, so basically you will have areas with it and areas like the Shankill without Irish on street signs. Bizarre but there you go. The education section just ignores the fact that Protestant children won't want to learn Irish in schools.

Protestant children might want to go to a summer school in Donegal though. Presumably that is why the 50,000 grant was taken away by a DUP minister.

Even skimming through the document here it is a bit of a nightmare when you are used to English having to skip past the Irish part before you get to the English part is a bit annoying too. It also mentions that Irish would be required on road signs, would that not bring complications for learner drivers?

How would Irish on a sign complicate things for learner drivers?

Also it mentions the BBC saying the BBC would need to spend £10 million a year on it. I hate the BBC, I don't want to pay for a TV license, I think the license fee should be scrapped, why no mention of people not in favour of the BBC? I don't want to contribute to it.

I've no idea why you bring the BBC tv licence into this, but the licence fee isn't going to be scrapped, so the state sponsored BBC should cater to all of those who pay their tv licence.

I suggest you read this article in the Journal which explains the background.

Up until the latest Stormont Assembly with Arlene Foster and McGuinness at the helm, discussions and policies around Irish language policies had been stagnant at worst – with talk around the implementation of an Irish Language Act ongoing (commitment to preserve, develop and promote Irish is part of the Good Friday Agreement).
But recently DUP members had began to implement regressive policies with regard to the Irish language: such as the new Agriculture Minister renaming a boat from the Irish ‘Banra Uladh’ to ‘Queen of Ulster’ at a cost of £302, according to Tuairisc.ie.
Last month, the Assembly’s Communities Minister Paul Givan withdrew funding for the La Irish language bursary fund, which was worth about £50,000 per year.
According to the BBC, an email was sent out on the night before Christmas Eve telling employees “Because of efficiency savings, the department will not be providing the La bursary scheme in 2017. Happy Christmas and Happy New Year.”
The fund allowed at least 100 students from disadvantaged areas to attend a Gaeltacht in Co Donegal, and led Gerry Adams to call the move ”an ignorant decision taken by an ignoramus”.
Funding for the expansion of five Irish language schools has been refused by the DUP education minister, saying that ‘demands are being met’ despite some schools seeing an increase in students enrolling.

http://www.thejournal.ie/northern-ireland-irish-language-3179468-Jan2017/

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Here you go - Conradh na Gaeilge's proposals. They have costed it at about 4m per year.

https://cnag.ie/en/get-involved/current-campaigns/irish-language-act.html

A 50,000 bursary that helped send 100 people to go to a summer school in the Donegal gaeltacht was pulled which has really annoyed nationalists in NI.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38422550

Breaking News: Irish Language Body says Irish Language translation doesn't cost very much.

Well, even Fox News would blush at running a story like that.

Here is a better example:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-blamed-for-eus-overspending-on-translation-service-36085027.html

"THE high cost of translating EU stories into Irish is being blamed for the European Parliament overspending its budget by millions of euro."

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

McCausland has an article in Belfast Telegraph where his main concern is:


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/nelson-mccausland-a-standalone-irish-language-act-is-divisive-and-ignores-ulsterscots-rich-heritage-35618555.html

He has little to say about the cost. If you read that Conrad na Gaeilge document, the start up costs would be about 18m over 5 years, and implementation after that would be 2m per year.



Protestant children might want to go to a summer school in Donegal though. Presumably that is why the 50,000 grant was taken away by a DUP minister.



How would Irish on a sign complicate things for learner drivers?



I've no idea why you bring the BBC tv licence into this, but the licence fee isn't going to be scrapped, so the state sponsored BBC should cater to all of those who pay their tv licence.

I suggest you read this article in the Journal which explains the background.



http://www.thejournal.ie/northern-ireland-irish-language-3179468-Jan2017/

So one of the reasons we don't have an assembly in the North is because of "the new Agriculture Minister renaming a boat from the Irish ‘Banra Uladh’ to ‘Queen of Ulster’ at a cost of £302, according to Tuairisc.ie."

It would be funny if it didn't reflect the pettiness on both sides - the pettines of the act and the pettiness of the reaction.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Breaking News: Irish Language Body says Irish Language translation doesn't cost very much.

Well, even Fox News would blush at running a story like that.

Here is a better example:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-blamed-for-eus-overspending-on-translation-service-36085027.html

"THE high cost of translating EU stories into Irish is being blamed for the European Parliament overspending its budget by millions of euro."

Which of course is a load of nonsense. It would be interesting to know who is pointing the finger at the Irish language. Why not point the finger at the Dutch? They all speak German and English.

If you actually read up on it, you would see that it was a special project where the Commission had to outsource translation services from their own permanent employees. The agency charges double for translation into Irish as it does for more popular languages. If you want to point the finger at anyway, point it at who ever commissioned this agency to do the translation. I'd imagine such a service would be much cheaper if they outsourced it to Ireland.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

So one of the reasons we don't have an assembly in the North is because of "the new Agriculture Minister renaming a boat from the Irish ‘Banra Uladh’ to ‘Queen of Ulster’ at a cost of £302, according to Tuairisc.ie."

It would be funny if it didn't reflect the pettiness on both sides - the pettines of the act and the pettiness of the reaction.

While that added to the problem, I think the nail in the coffin of the Assembly was withdrawing the 50,000 funding on Christmas Eve.

Last month, the Assembly’s Communities Minister Paul Givan withdrew funding for the La Irish language bursary fund, which was worth about £50,000 per year.


According to the BBC, an email was sent out on the night before Christmas Eve telling employees “Because of efficiency savings, the department will not be providing the La bursary scheme in 2017. Happy Christmas and Happy New Year.”


The fund allowed at least 100 students from disadvantaged areas to attend a Gaeltacht in Co Donegal, and led Gerry Adams to call the move ”an ignorant decision taken by an ignoramus”.


Funding for the expansion of five Irish language schools has been refused by the DUP education minister, saying that ‘demands are being met’ despite some schools seeing an increase in students enrolling.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

While that added to the problem, I think the nail in the coffin of the Assembly was withdrawing the 50,000 funding on Christmas Eve.

Do the DUP think they are fooling anyone (apart from Tommy Gorman) with their spanking new embracing of the Irish language?

If it is 'no threat to the union' and if 'unionism has nothing to fear' whatever is the problem allowing it to happen?

Any guesses?

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

While that added to the problem, I think the nail in the coffin of the Assembly was withdrawing the 50,000 funding on Christmas Eve.

I said on here about a year and a half ago that the GFA was stagnant and the whole thing was in danger because unionists where blocking and blocking any progress. I was dismissed vociferously by the usual unionists apologisers on here.
I think it was also somehow all SF's fault.

It has come to pass.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

So 50 of 90 MLAs supporting an Irish Language Act does not necessarily make it a good thing.

That's a meaningless statement.

50 of 90 MLAs support ILA ✓
Scotland has a Scottish Gaelic language act ✓
The Welsh have a Welsh language act ✓
Irish Language act for the Irish/NIrish/British in northern Ireland ✗

Blocked by the DUP. Why? Unbridled Hibernophobia. It's no surprise to anyone who reads these threads that you're in full agreement with the DUP.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's a meaningless statement.

50 of 90 MLAs support ILA ✓
Scotland has a Scottish Gaelic language act ✓
The Welsh have a Welsh language act ✓
Irish Language act for the Irish/NIrish/British in northern Ireland ✗

Blocked by the DUP. Why? Unbridled Hibernophobia. It's no surprise to anyone who reads these threads that you're in full agreement with the DUP.

It is not a meaningless statement.

If any part of the world should have learnt by now about the tyranny of the majority, it is Northern Ireland. An Irish Language Act is a bad idea because it doesn't have the support of both communities. A compromise in a Minority Languages Act is the way forward, mark my words.

Straight Talker

I think people have tolerated enough nonsence from Sinn Fein/IRA now.Sinn Fein have politicized this Irish language a bit too much here, and are using it as a stick to beat unionists with.Along with offering their opinions on how the unionist community should celebrate the 12th of July.The silence from these same people, when nationalist youths went on the rampage, after a bonfire a few weeks ago in Belfast was deafening.There is no way that the DUP will lose face within their own community by backing down all the way here.Too much concessions have been granted to republicans since the good friday agreement.The DUP offered a proposal and Sinn Fein rejected it.Fair enough so.If Sinn Fein don't want to rejoin the assembly, then it's time to go back to direct rule.It's as simple as that.

FrancieBrady

Straight Talker wrote: »

I think people have tolerated enough nonsence from Sinn Fein/IRA now.Sinn Fein have politicized this Irish language a bit too much here, and are using it as a stick to beat unionists with.

If Unionists 'have nothing to fear from the Irish Language' and it is 'no threat to the Union', how can it be used as a 'stick to beat Unionists' with? That is patently ridiculous.

Along with offering their opinions on how the unionist community should celebrate the 12th of July.

They don't, they offer their opinion on how the 12th is celebrated in areas where it's supremnatist and bigoted taunting is not wanted.

The silence from these same people, when nationalist youths went on the rampage, after a bonfire a few weeks ago in Belfast was deafening.

I heard SF reps vociferously condemning bonfires just a few weeks ago.

There is no way that the DUP will lose face within their own community by backing down all the way here.Too much concessions have been granted to republicans since the good friday agreement.The DUP offered a proposal and Sinn Fein rejected it.Fair enough so.If Sinn Fein don't want to rejoin the assembly, then it's time to go back to direct rule.It's as simple as that.

Are you a member of the DUP?

Why would people who have nothing to fear 'lose face'? You are talking in circles here.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not a meaningless statement.

If any part of the world should have learnt by now about the tyranny of the majority, it is Northern Ireland. An Irish Language Act is a bad idea because it doesn't have the support of both communities. A compromise in a Minority Languages Act is the way forward, mark my words.

The Council of European disagrees with you:

Promotion of Irish in North ‘blocked by hostile attitudes’

Council of Europe says authorities at Stormont may be in breach of a charter of rights

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/promotion-of-irish-in-north-blocked-by-hostile-attitudes-1.1657285

Not to mention the UN (2009)

The United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights has called for the adoption of an Irish language Act ….

The Committee is concerned that there is still no protection in respect of the Irish language in Northern Ireland, whereas the Welsh and the Gaelic languages are protected by the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, respectively. (arts. 15 and 2)
The Committee recommends that the State party, or the devolved administration in Northern Ireland, adopt an Irish Language Act, with a view to preserving and promoting minority languages and cultural heritage, and invites the State party to provide detailed information on the progress made in its next periodic report.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

The Council of European disagrees with you:

Promotion of Irish in North ‘blocked by hostile attitudes’

Council of Europe says authorities at Stormont may be in breach of a charter of rights

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/promotion-of-irish-in-north-blocked-by-hostile-attitudes-1.1657285

Not to mention the UN (2009)

Some people's version of equality and implementation of the GFA is one where unionists must not be asked to do anything they find difficult.

No unionist will be hurt or disenfranchised by the simple implementation of this act.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

The Council of European disagrees with you:

Promotion of Irish in North ‘blocked by hostile attitudes’

Council of Europe says authorities at Stormont may be in breach of a charter of rights

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/promotion-of-irish-in-north-blocked-by-hostile-attitudes-1.1657285

Not to mention the UN (2009)

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

There is nobody to blame for the failure to protect Ulster Scots only unionists.

Nobody and no political party has any problem with legislation to protect Ulster Scots.

An Irish Language act was agreed at St Andrews and nobody there offered the 'Ulster Scots as well or nothing' veto. The then DUP leader never mentioned it in his belligerent statement that I linked to earlier.
It is a blatant invention as unionists got pressured on delivering on agreements.
But all you want to do is relieve them of any responsibility and blame those who identify as Irish.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

There is an Ulster-Scots Agency, jointly funded by the Department for Communites in Northern Ireland and the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and is responsible to the North/South Ministerial Council. Up to them to lobby for legislation if they want it.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/

And this is them looking for funding:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-ulster-scots-money-would-be-spent-halls-bands-highland-dance-art-and-more-1-8115558

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

There is an Ulster-Scots Agency, jointly funded by the Department for Communites in Northern Ireland and the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and is responsible to the North/South Ministerial Council. Up to them to lobby for legislation if they want it.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/

And this is them looking for funding:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-ulster-scots-money-would-be-spent-halls-bands-highland-dance-art-and-more-1-8115558

It has little to do about the Language Act anymore but the principle. The constant blocking of legislation that brings normality to politics and life in a failed statelet.
It will continue to fail until the principle is understood by unionism, it is not their fiefdom anymore.
Blanch's and A Little Pony efforts to save their blushes on this will fail simply because it is wrong.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

Ulster Scots isn't a language.

Junkyard Tom

If agreements can't be honored and rights can't be delivered because of DUP/Unionist blocking then it looks like DR might actually be more beneficial in the short term.



Also SF/SDLP/AL/PBP can sit back and blame the DUP/CONs for everything while they're in axis (lack of rights/equality, economic damage from Brexit and so on) .

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has little to do about the Language Act anymore but the principle. The constant blocking of legislation that brings normality to politics and life in a failed statelet.
It will continue to fail until the principle is understood by unionism, it is not their fiefdom anymore.
Blanch's and A Little Pony efforts to save their blushes on this will fail simply because it is wrong.

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

50 of 90 MLA's want a stand alone ILA. Stop pretending this is all SF's fault so you can continue on your bizarre crusade against Republicans/Nationalists.

If you obsessed a little less with sticking it to SF while ignoring that the DUP/UUP are the actual problem you might have come across this:

SDLP standing firmly on demand for ‘stand alone Irish Language Act'

eamonnmallie.com

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

Very good article in the Irish Times today explaining the situation. You've got it wrong on Sinn Fein being the driver on this one.

How Arlene Foster helped nationalism find its teeth

DUP leader has hardened nationalist resolve like no unionist first minister before her

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/how-arlene-foster-helped-nationalism-find-its-teeth-1.3208198

munsterlegend

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

The problem is clear here and that is Unionism continuing to do everything in their power to fail to recognise that nationalism is now their equal. The way they denigrate anything Irish is quite frankly disgraceful such as the likes of Gregory Campbell and others.

Unionism needs to realise the past Stormont dictatorship days are over and the British govt will no longer back their Protestant statelet. Sinn Fein are only reflecting the views of the awakened nationalist electorate and won't back down nor should they. Foster is not capable of advancing matters which represents a big problem. It's hard to believe that Robinson was in fact much more astute to nationalist concerns while she continues her belligerent attitude. She is a failure and as long as she stays matter won't advance.

Junkyard Tom

So what happens if Stormont isn't reconvened? One possible solution that could allow the DUP to 'save face' would be if an ILA and Marriage equality was brought in by Direct Rule. The problem with that though is the DUP are in cahoots with the CONs so could threaten to pull the plug.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So what happens if Stormont isn't reconvened? One possible solution that could allow the DUP to 'save face' would be if an ILA and Marriage equality was brought in by Direct Rule. The problem with that though is the DUP are in cahoots with the CONs so could threaten to pull the plug.

The DUP could well live with marriage equality being brought in over their head, but the ILA would be vetoed by them.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP could well live with marriage equality being brought in over their head,

The largest religious denomination in the DUP is Paisley's Free Presbyterianism - I don't think Marriage Equality would be a given.

but the ILA would be vetoed by them.

Maybe they could have a standalone Ulster Scots Act in parallel?

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The largest religious denomination in the DUP is Paisley's Free Presbyterianism - I don't think Marriage Equality would be a given.

They would fight the good fight but you can tell from the body language that there are a lot of them embarrassed by it.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Maybe they could have a standalone Ulster Scots Act in parallel?

My own personal view is that the whole languages thing North and South is a folly, we should be mature enough as a nation not to need constant reassurance of who we are or clinging on to old heritage.

Leaving that aside, a parallel Act would have to have the same provisions which would be very costly.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They would fight the good fight but you can tell from the body language that there are a lot of them embarrassed by it.






My own personal view is that the whole languages thing North and South is a folly, we should be mature enough as a nation not to need constant reassurance of who we are or clinging on to old heritage.

Leaving that aside, a parallel Act would have to have the same provisions which would be very costly.

I don't think it is remotely to do with some kind of insecurity tbh.
I would think it is felt that it is imperative to have this protection for the language to survive. Their is no doubt that it would be a tool for the promotion of the language, and that irks some people because of their 'insecurities'. Insecurities that are evident in so many other ways, flags, Irish government involvement etc.
And it may be 'old heritage' to you but it isn't to all.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think it is remotely to do with some kind of insecurity tbh.
I would think it is felt that it is imperative to have this protection for the language to survive. Their is no doubt that it would be a tool for the promotion of the language, and that irks some people because of their 'insecurities'. Insecurities that are evident in so many other ways, flags, Irish government involvement etc.
And it may be 'old heritage' to you but it isn't to all.

There is plenty out there in academia about Ireland and its post-colonial insecurity.

So many of us continually define ourselves as not-Brits by embracing a dead language and a dead culture rather than embracing the English-influenced aspects of our culture right across the arts from literature to music. Being Irish doesn't need a language that nobody speaks.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is plenty out there in academia about Ireland and its post-colonial insecurity.

So many of us continually define ourselves as not-Brits by embracing a dead language and a dead culture rather than embracing the English-influenced aspects of our culture right across the arts from literature to music. Being Irish doesn't need a language that nobody speaks.

That' post ^ is fairly typical example of what I see as an inferiority complex among some Irish people.
I see republicans all around me embracing all aspects of our history and heritage. Including those parts influenced by Britain both good and bad.
It would be ridiculous not to as it would not to embrace the language of a lot of that history and heritage.
Look around you at the positives of the language, the growth in Gael Scoilenna which will reap dividends in the near future.
That growth would not have happened had the language not been protected by legislation and rights.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That' post ^ is fairly typical example of what I see as an inferiority complex among some Irish people.
I see republicans all around me embracing all aspects of our history and heritage. Including those parts influenced by Britain both good and bad.
It would be ridiculous not to as it would not to embrace the language of a lot of that history and heritage.
Look around you at the positives of the language, the growth in Gael Scoilenna which will reap dividends in the near future.
That growth would not have happened had the language not been protected by legislation and rights.

Except the language isn't growing, it is dying, kept barely alive.

http://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2017/census2016summaryresults-part1/


The population grew by 3.8%

The number of people who could speak Irish fell by 0.7%, decreasing from 41,4% of the population to 39.8%. Given that this figure includes those who can say "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas", that is a very worrying figure for the future of the language.

8,068 Irish language forms were completed in Census 2016 compared with 8,676 in Census 2011.

73,803 said they speak it daily outside the education system, a fall of 3,382 on the 2011 figure. That is a miserable 1.7% of the population. Only 20,586 (27.9%) lived in Gaeltacht areas.

612,018 Irish residents spoke a foreign language at home - Polish probably has more people using it outside the education system than Irish.

What do the figures tell us? Irish is in terminal decline in the Gaeltacht areas and the figures are only maintained by a small number of people in urban areas speaking it at home.

Those are the harsh truths of the census figures and no amounts of waving the green flag and pretending things are different will hide the essential image of a dead language.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Except the language isn't growing, it is dying, kept barely alive.

http://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2017/census2016summaryresults-part1/


The population grew by 3.8%

The number of people who could speak Irish fell by 0.7%, decreasing from 41,4% of the population to 39.8%. Given that this figure includes those who can say "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas", that is a very worrying figure for the future of the language.

8,068 Irish language forms were completed in Census 2016 compared with 8,676 in Census 2011.

73,803 said they speak it daily outside the education system, a fall of 3,382 on the 2011 figure. That is a miserable 1.7% of the population. Only 20,586 (27.9%) lived in Gaeltacht areas.

612,018 Irish residents spoke a foreign language at home - Polish probably has more people using it outside the education system than Irish.

What do the figures tell us? Irish is in terminal decline in the Gaeltacht areas and the figures are only maintained by a small number of people in urban areas speaking it at home.

Those are the harsh truths of the census figures and no amounts of waving the green flag and pretending things are different will hide the essential image of a dead language.

All the more reason it should be protected.

What other heritage and historical things would the blanch regime not protect or maintain?

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All the more reason it should be protected.

What other heritage and historical things would the blanch regime not protect or maintain?

Yes I am sure he has no problem with the money spent on Orange traditions despite it's inherently sectarian basis. That's dying too so the monies should really be stopped asap.