Ireland v Yanks Match Thread

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote:

Those terrible teams don't know what they're doing. I remember there was this brilliant young kiwi guy called Daniel Carter and the Crusaders kept moving him around while he was learning the ropes. Really scuppered his career if I'm remembering right.

Almost as badly as that Wilkinson lad. Or was it Larkham?

eagle eye

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Those terrible teams don't know what they're doing. I remember there was this brilliant young kiwi guy called Daniel Carter and the Crusaders kept moving him around while he was learning the ropes. Really scuppered his career if I'm remembering right.

Buer wrote: »

Almost as badly as that Wilkinson lad. Or was it Larkham?

You are going back a long while and picking out the exceptions who actually did make it. There have been a lot who didn't and of course you can say that it's just natural but I don't think so.

Particularly for a position like out-half where decision making is so much more important. I've seen a lot of players who have been moved to full back, wing and centre and suddenly they start to second guess themselves when they go back to play out-half, and it's something they didn't do before they played other positions.

We need to see Tiernan O'Halloran against top opposition ASAP. Looking so much sharper than Kearney.

Peregrine

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd be willing to give Carberry time but Leinster don't care about young players as much as they'd like you to believe. All they care about is winning games and, just like Madigan, they will keep shifting him around the place to suit their needs. He'd be better off to find another club to go to if he wants to develop in one position whether that be out-half or another position.

I don't like the way teams move young players around to different positions, I always felt that if Madigan had went to Connacht for two years when he was younger that he'd be a top class out-half now.

Leinster used over 50 players this season. 7 senior contracts from the Leinster Academy for next year. Mike Ross and Dominic Ryan weren't offered contracts for next year because they trusted the young players they had. And Ryan is still a spring chicken!

Carbery was moved around at the end of the season because of several factors: injury to Rob Kearney, to give Ross Byrne gametime as well and to keep Carbery in the starting 15 as opposed to the bench while Sexton starts at 10 because they recognised that Carbery is one of Leinster's best players.

To suggest that Leinster don't care about young players is just wrong.

Buer

eagle eye wrote:

You are going back a long while and picking out the exceptions who actually did make it. There have been a lot who didn't and of course you can say that it's just natural but I don't think so.

No, we just picked out the best three outhalves to play the game in the past 20 years. All learned the game in other positions when young and the experience was of huge benefit to them.

I could pick plenty of others. Owen Farrell. Toby Flood. Butch James. Finn Russell.

dub_skav

Buer wrote: »

No, we just picked out the best three outhalves to play the game in the past 20 years. All learned the game in other positions when young and the experience was of huge benefit to them.

I could pick plenty of others. Owen Farrell. Toby Flood. Butch James. Finn Russell.

Plus a certain beauden barrett

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

No, we just picked out the best three outhalves to play the game in the past 20 years. All learned the game in other positions when young and the experience was of huge benefit to them.

I could pick plenty of others. Owen Farrell. Toby Flood. Butch James. Finn Russell.

Dr. Phil as well, closer to home.

Imagine how good these guys could have been if they'd been developed properly!

molloyjh

Not only the fact that those who make it are by definition the exception. Most don't make it to that level.

Bazzo

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Who said what is who's fault? Not me though I concede that Marmion had a bit more to do then usual. It was the game to do it IMO as well.

As regards the 9, his job isn't to make the pack play well, it's to make them play better. You know what the Fat Boys can be like; they need a bit of a push every so often :-)

I'm not sure if you meant it but your post read like a critique of Marmion for not "allowing" Carbery to control the backline, not sure what you mean about bringing the pack in to the game as I think most people agree that Marmion had a good game yesterday, as did McGrath when he came on.

pickarooney

Buer wrote: »

Almost as badly as that Wilkinson lad. Or was it Larkham?

Or poor Beauden Barrett. Anyone know what became of him?

Highlights for those who missed or fell asleep

irishman86

Deleted User wrote: »

We need to see Tiernan O'Halloran against top opposition ASAP. Looking so much sharper than Kearney.

Hes been sharper than Kearney for a while now. Joe should really start brining players in now as there is no world cup rankings for a excuse anymore

irishman86

Buer wrote: »

No, we just picked out the best three outhalves to play the game in the past 20 years. All learned the game in other positions when young and the experience was of huge benefit to them.

I could pick plenty of others. Owen Farrell. Toby Flood. Butch James. Finn Russell.

You were doing so well till you put Flood in there :pac:

irishman86

Could anyone take a few mins and let me know how Ryan got on?
I fell asleep

irishman86

irishman86 wrote: »

Could anyone take a few mins and let me know how Ryan got on?
I fell asleep

He consumed the Americans with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.

Erik Shin

I'm actually glad I fell asleep.... think there were multiple orgasms on here when Ryan scored

.ak

typhoony wrote: »

Carbery is definite not the best hope at 10 when sexton leaves, just like Madigan was never going to cut it at 10 either, paddy Jackson is streets ahead of him and I have no doubt we won't be seeing Carbery at 10 pr 15 long term for Ireland, the only way that would happen is if we have zero young out-halves coming up from the under 20's system. I'd have a tiny bit of hope for him if he had scope to bulk up but he looks to have a small frame, most international 10's these days are big units

Carbery is basically a child still in the academy and has shown a lot more than other 10s at his age imo. Think you're being far too premature.

D14Rugby

15 is actually a good place for a young 10 to get game time. Very similar skill sets and similar positioning at times in the match so they learn a lot without the pressure of calling plays and being first receiver all the time.
It's not ideal to be playing out of position but it's better than not playing.

CMOTDibbler

.ak wrote: »

Carbery is basically a child still in the academy and has shown a lot more than other 10s at his age imo. Think you're being far too premature.

Yeah. Joe Schmidt said that he struck him as a player who always seemed to be very calm and have plenty of time to make decisions.

At international level he would need experience to adjust to the speed, but he's had a broken season this year and a lot of changes to absorb. I don't doubt that he'll be able to step up.

Funny, peculiar, that we look for young players to be given a chance and are so quick to dump then when they have a bad game.

awec

Paddy Jackson was practically written off after that game against Scotland and he has turned it around and proved people wrong.

Carbery will turn it around as well. I really wouldn't read anything into last nights game at all.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

Paddy Jackson was practically written off after that game against Scotland and he has turned it around and proved people wrong.

Carbery will turn it around as well. I really wouldn't read anything into last nights game at all.

Yep, Paddy is the best example of a player getting better with patience and time. Conor Murray is another and look at him now. Didn't Graham Henry not say he was currently the best SH in the world?

Buer

People who were writing Jackson off after the Scotland game were idiots. Anyone who followed Jackson from his underage career knew the guy was the real deal. He's a superb player and looked very good in open play that day against Scotland. It was purely down to the very Irish mindset that your 10 has to be your goal kicker and his overall performance needs to be judged on that. I'll have no issue with him taking over from Sexton in the next 1-2 years and potentially being first choice for the 2019 RWC.

In that vein, Carbery was actually quite decent last night in attacking play. Mixed it up well and got in behind the USA defence with his boot a number of times. He had a few howlers too but his general play was quite decent. Unfortunately, his confidence will have taken a blow from those errors and missed kicks.

Nice to see Ringrose have a pop with the boot too. Bizarre he doesn't take more.

CMOTDibbler

Buer wrote: »

Nice to see Ringrose have a pop with the boot too. Bizarre he doesn't take more.

Ringrose is annoyingly talented. A 90%+ kicker during his SC year even though he was playing centre.

And just popping them over from the touchline when asked yesterday. Ridiculous skill. ROG must have been gobsmacked.

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ringrose is annoyingly talented. A 90%+ kicker during his SC year even though he was playing centre.

And just popping them over from the touchline when asked yesterday. Ridiculous skill. ROG must have been gobsmacked.

ROG doesn't get gobsmacked, you heathen. He is a smacker of gobs.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

ROG doesn't get gobsmacked, you heathen. He is a smacker of gobs.

Non mon ami. Il donner les rockets up leurs arses.

Peregrine

As for Joey's place-kicking, wasn't he place-kicking for Clontarf last year? He kicked fine in the AIL final and I remember him kicking fine in the 2015 JWC (I think Ringrose was kicking for that too). A bit unfair for people to suggest that he can't kick.

When he started playing for Leinster this season, he was playing in a team with Nacewa and Nacewa was given the kicking duties. That went on for a few months and the longer it went on the more people were doubting his kicking abilities. And, probably, the more nervous Carbery was when he was given the chance. In February when he came back from injury, he still hadn't kicked much except a few kicks here and there and the first Glasgow game. Then he started playing full-back with Ross Byrne (who got plenty of opportunities and kicked fine at this level while Carbery was out injured) or Sexton at 10 and Nacewa on the wing.

Then he found himself starting against USA with, I think, 2 games of experience at Leinster where was in charge of place-kicking. Missed two difficult kicks initially, hit one off the post and then got the next two. Just give the lad a chance and let him settle in.

.ak

Any word on Carbery's injury?

CMOTDibbler

.ak wrote: »

Any word on Carbery's injury?

No, just that he'd need a scan and they weren't sure if there was time to do that before they left or wait until they got to Tokyo.

thomond2006

If I'm Ringrose I'm lobbying to be a regular kicker. It will bump up the next contract nicely!

molloyjh

I'm with Buer re Jackson. I remember the reaction to his game against Scotland, but he actually played well overall that day. People just needed someone to blame and he missed a few kicks at goal so he was an easy target. Ball in hand he was actually very good that day.

Carbery was actually pretty good at 10 overall yesterday. Nothing hugely special, although some of his cross fields to Earls I thought were down right sexy as f--k (don't worry, no Venjur-ing here). A few high profile mistakes but these are the games to be learning those lessons in. I've no idea if he'll be the next Madigan, Jackson, Sexton or Dan Carter yet. Don't think anyone does, or even can. It's far too early. He might stagnate or he might learn at a rate of knots. Hopefully it'll be the latter. But unless you're a time traveller or clarevoyant then we'll just have to wait and see.

Clegg

First chance to have a look at this thread since the match. Some of the posts on here are proper wild. Carbery is in his debut season as a player and still on an academy contract afaik. Cut him some slack. His rise has been incredible and he's rightly regarded as one of the brightest young talents in Ireland if not even in the NH. The context around Carbery is also being ignored too I think. He played very little at 10 since the start of 2017. His own injuries and a requirement to play him at 15 saw to that.But let's stick the knife in as soon as he plays poorly yeah?

Tyler Bleyendaal in next year? Christ give me strength.

Anatidaephobia

Clegg wrote: »

First chance to have a look at this thread since the match. Some of the posts on here are proper wild. Carbery is in his debut season as a player and still on an academy contract afaik. Cut him some slack. His rise has been incredible and he's rightly regarded as one of the brightest young talents in Ireland if not even in the NH. The context around Carbery is also being ignored too I think. He played very little at 10 since the start of 2017. His own injuries and a requirement to play him at 15 saw to that.But let's stick the knife in as soon as he plays poorly yeah?

Tyler Bleyendaal in next year? Christ give me strength.

I fully agree with you regarding Carbery and I think he's going to be an incredible player in a couple of years, but I don't understand your derision towards Bleyendaal. He's an excellent player and I'll be extremely surprised if he isn't involved in next years six nations squad.

Neil3030

To quote Keith from Deadliest Catch (when summarising a promising young deckhand) "kid just needs to get a little mustard in his ass, and he'll be fine"

Bazzo

Carbery is a fine player but nobody will convince me that he's a good goal kicker at this level, or not yet at least. Jack Carty is a good example of a player who was a great kicker underage and all the way up but his lengthy pro record is probably around 60% so that doesn't necessarily translate.

It's not a huge deal if there's another player on the pitch who can kick and thankfully there are more and more non-outhalves who can kick appearing these days. If Ringrose is a good kicker then give him the duties and we're laughing.

irishbucsfan

Bazzo wrote: »

Carbery is a fine player but nobody will convince me that he's a good goal kicker at this level, or not yet at least. Jack Carty is a good example of a player who was a great kicker underage and all the way up but his lengthy pro record is probably around 60% so that doesn't necessarily translate.

It's not a huge deal if there's another player on the pitch who can kick and thankfully there are more and more non-outhalves who can kick appearing these days. If Ringrose is a good kicker then give him the duties and we're laughing.

He'll be kicking with Richie Murphy, or whoever has taken over from Tainton, every week now that he's around the international setup. I'm sure we'll see a fairly drastic improvement.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He'll be kicking with Richie Murphy, or whoever has taken over from Tainton, every week now that he's around the international setup. I'm sure we'll see a fairly drastic improvement.

I've noticed that he seems to have a very snappy action in his kicking. It's not a smooth stroke but rather he seems to accelerate through the ball with a short follow through.

There's nothing wrong with that, but it can lead to miscues if he's slightly offline coming into the ball.

kingofthekong

Lads you all need to calm down...
1.The guy has played damn all games at outhalf all season
2. has taken damn all pressure kicks at goal all season
3. he's 21 years old..
People with jack all knowledge of the game chatting as if this guy should never play outhalf again, if you guys could rate Sexton or O'gara when they were 21 years old you'd be saying far worse things about them than you would be about Carberry.
He's by a distance the best young outhalf in the country and needs time to develop into a world class outhalf.., he'll learn more from games like this than he will from games when everything runs smoothly.
Also if the first game you'd ever seen Sexton play was his first two games for the Lions you'd be writing Sexton off aswell, far too critical somethimes...

errlloyd

I didn't quite see why Ringrose took the second goal kick, was Carbs getting treatment?

Do we have a theory as to why RR only took the one?

CMOTDibbler

errlloyd wrote: »

I didn't quite see why Ringrose took the second goal kick, was Carbs getting treatment?

Do we have a theory as to why RR only took the one?

It was assumed that Ringrose was taking the left hand side kicks. He's such a good kicker, it would make sense to give him some kicks to keep him fresh if needed.

He had insane stats during his senior cup year. Something like 20/22 in the whole campaign.

phog

From twitter

OptaJonny @OptaJonny

9 - Keith Earls' nine clean breaks v USA were the most by a Tier One player in a Test match since Opta began recording this data. Swooping.

John_Mc

Anyone have a link for the full match? Can't find it on Youtube

.ak

Rewatching with American commentary, and some of this is gas;

"Ruddock, at the head of the maul... like some sort of sacrifice."

"And the Irish come to dance as they form a lineout"

"Lights out!"