Men or Women, who has a harder life?

Samaris

Could also talk to Google about how there's no pay inequality. They'd be delighted for support in their current case regarding systemic gender-based pay inequality throughout their first-world multinational organisation.

Would anyone be interested in having a thread devoted to male issues and a thread devoted to female issues, where we can talk about each without trying to pin it all on the other gender? Preferably threads focussed towards -solutions-. I'm happy to start one if someone else wants to start the other.

We've had this conversation multiple times and honestly, I got tired by page 3 looking at the "the other side are mean to us!" (or, paraphrasing one particularly charming post "the other side are just whiners"). What good does it do? What actual good does it do to be trying to compare gender issues against each other in terms of how serious it is to try come up with a winning argument as to why the other side are keeping X side down? What does it solve? Do solutions actually come of it or does it just deepen the divide for, frankly, stupid reasons?

These are fcuking societal issues, society being made up men AND women, society being changeable only from women AND men working together. Making it men vs women, which has it worse (implication - is the "other side" just a pack of whiners?) is nothing more than a smokescreen to avoid anything being done. Divide and conquer, as usual. Apologies to those who weren't doing that and actually were looking for solutions. But it's the same damn thing in every one of these sorts of threads. If it can be blamed on the other side "I" don't have to do anything about it.

Men have an -extremely- potent source of aid and experience that they are mostly ignoring and/or blaming. By that I mean women, including the feminists, who have -recently- fought a whole bunch of societal issues and, for the most part, WON them. Why turn your backs on such a potent resource of information, networks and ability? Why reinvent the wheel?

Women needed men back then and need them now. There are still problems and problems that affect both genders. At this point, the best way to improve things is to improve things for both sides, because there are serious issues also affecting males. And various issues, including custody and divorce, affect women negatively as a side-effect of affecting men negatively. There's no point trying to solve it for one side only because that is, frankly, bullsh*t.

bee06

Samaris, I completely agree. People seem to forget that men's issues impact women and vice versa. I have a husband, brothers, a father etc. It matters to me that suicide among men is such an issue because it could potentially impact the people that I love.

Widdershins

I hadn't time to read the whole thread. It almost completely comes down to the individual and their personal circumstance and background, these days. Before, it was a question of class and privilege.The lower classes were equally miserable-the men might have been canon fodder or worked in a mine and the women might have slaved in a dirty job of their own. Even the children had to work.

Tell me how

Widdershins wrote:

I hadn't time to read the whole thread.

It's been mostly like discussing does it rain more on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Murrisk

osarusan wrote: »

F**k sake, talk about the victimhood olympics.

Absolutely. I have great respect for the women's rights movements of the past. But I have huge problems with modern feminism which casts women as ineffectual victims far too much.

What's interesting though is that the nascent men's rights groups of today seem to be intent on emulating modern feminism rather than looking at what made women's movements of the past so effective. Modern feminism focusses on any perceived slight against women and the men's rights groups are now also doing this. The serious issues facing men are obscured by kvetching about very minor issues. Men's rights groups also seem to spend too much time sticking it to feminists and, in doing so, just come across so whiny and petty. Not the way to acheive your goals, lads!

SGSM

Simply cannot compare. Both sides have their struggles and it is pointless to try and argue about it. Just try and help one another more so some of these problems become less of a problem.

Murrisk

LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »

I think the circumstances that you're born into are far more important to be honest.

+1

Definitely a much greater indicator of how your life will pan out than what gender you happen to be.

Persephone kindness

Women. A lot harder.

Wibbs

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Women. A lot harder.

Just cos?

Me. Earlier. wrote:

The average Irish woman of today can expect to live longer, be better educated, be better paid(before children), have more societal safety nets, more medical research aimed at her, be less likely to be physically assaulted or murdered, less likely to be homeless, far less likely to die in accidents in work(or outside) and far less likely to die by her own hand. These are statistical facts for the average.

Yep, them pesky facts. So where do you get "A lot harder" from?

Glenster

pangbang wrote: »

I couldn't disagree any more! Just to pick one single thing, male suicide rates.

name one more thing....

Persephone kindness

Wibbs wrote: »

Just cos?

Yep, them pesky facts. So where do you get "A lot harder" from?

Just coz. ..just coz it's true.

just cuz it's totally true and you guys had totally better make up for it :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p oh yeah oh yeah oh yeay ..:D:D:Dnah i am kidding about that.

Persephone kindness

Wibbs wrote: »

Just cos?

Yep, them pesky facts. So where do you get "A lot harder" from?

It's ok by the way you don't have to agree. But that's my opinion. There is no point trying to convince me...or me you.

Annasopra

Pac1Man wrote: »

Pac1Man has all the willys.

I dont think that answers if you are male or female

Persephone kindness

Some men have it hard ....there ..so we are stronger together ...the lizard people only want to pit women against men to rule us.

Persephone kindness

Here pacman if you have more than one willy to go around i think you should share!

Annasopra

It also depends on the societal/cultural context as well. I mean if you looked at this here in Western Europe Women have made a lot of advances and overthrown a lot of opression and have much better lives than previous generations. But look at Asia/Africa/Middle East or being a woman in the likes of Saudi Arabia. Or look at this culuturally - the Australian macho male culture is actually quite mysogynistic.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It also depends on the societal/cultural context as well. I mean if you looked at this here in Western Europe Women have made a lot of advances and overthrown a lot of opression and have much better lives than previous generations. But look at Asia/Africa/Middle East or being a woman in the likes of Saudi Arabia. Or look at this culuturally - the Australian macho male culture is actually quite mysogynistic.

Yeah, so let's take each place on its merits. This collective thing is what does a lot of people's heads in.
Or another example, Dawkins got loads of **** from the "left" and "feminists" when he said Islam needs a feminist revolution because it was mansplaining and he should just leave it to the women. And the classic women wearing headscarves in places that they have the choice were like "oh I'm not oppressed, I choose to wear it".

Wibbs

Persephone kindness wrote: »

It's ok by the way you don't have to agree. But that's my opinion.

Facts > Opinion. Shocking to some, but true nonetheless.

There is no point trying to convince me

That part we agree on.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Or look at this culuturally - the Australian macho male culture is actually quite mysogynistic.

I dunno about Australia, but I have found that on the ground overtly "macho" cultures can be quite matriarchal behind the scenes. QV the various Latin cultures. The exaggerated machismo stuff can be a bit of a front.

optogirl

pangbang wrote: »

The risk of getting thumped around by other blokes at any time of the day, broad daylight, busy streets, wherever.

This also applies to women

Hector Savage

Wibbs wrote: »

The average Irish woman of today can expect to live longer, be better educated, be better paid(before children), have more societal safety nets, more medical research aimed at her, be less likely to be physically assaulted or murdered, less likely to be homeless, far less likely to die in accidents in work(or outside) and far less likely to die by her own hand. These are statistical facts for the average. Individuals differ widely, but take from all that what you will.

Wibbs wrote: »

So ranged against all the other things, that's all you have? Let's not, because under any sort of basic examination it's a crock.

A rock of sense.

//thread

AudreyHepburn

To honest I think it depends on the individual - as a woman I don't believe that just because we go through menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and the menopause we automatically have it tough.

Why this constant need to one up each other? Why can't it be accepted that we are all different and we all cope with things differently?

Gender shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether your life is difficult or not.

Outlaw Pete

Given the choice of being born today in Holles St today as either a boy or a *girl.. I would choose to be a girl without hesitation. Society is just nicer to girls and things aren't as hard fought for... generally speaking, there's always exceptions of course. I do however think there are other more pressing factors )like where in Dublin my parents lived, their health, income etc) that would have a say on just how tough my life would be.



*A gay one of course. Men are major eww.

January

January wrote: »

Women.

On periods and childbirth alone, let's not get into the inequalities in the workplace etc.

Women have it harder.

Just no.

Women have a longer life expectancy. That is down to basic wear and tear. Generally men work longer, dirtier, more dangerous jobs, for most of their lives.

Nobody would say it was a picnic having your period, or lesser pay in some workplaces, but that doesn't equate to a hard life

keano_afc

I'm a white, Christian male.

Everything is my fault.

Annasopra

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Given the choice of being born today in Holles St today as either a boy or a *girl

*A gay one of course.

Well apparently Lesbians get paid better than heterosexual women so thats a bonus for you :pac:

Wibbs

optogirl wrote: »

This also applies to women

Not even close to the same risk. Now these are UK figures, but given that we're very similar culturally.. From the article:

"Men commit more violent crime than women, by a mile. Around 85-90% of convicted murderers are men, a majority of the reported domestic abusers and pretty much all of those committing sexual attacks. However ? and this is the part that gets overlooked ? almost twice as many men than women are the victims of violence."

Even within domestic abuse, where women get the lion's share of sympathy and societal and government support it's not so clearcut:

"In discussions of domestic violence, it is often noted with alarm that women are killed at a rate of two per week, by usually male partners or ex-partners. But domestic violence is not exclusively male on female: the ONS statistics for 2011-12 show that while 1.2 million women experienced domestic violence, so too did 800,000 men. A 1994 University of Iowa paper by veteran criminal lawyer Alan Dershowitz reported that over 40% of US spousal murders are perpetrated by women"

This is the kinda problem I have around this subject. As others have rightly said, we should be looking at people, not genders, but guess which gender gets more attention and support and by quite the margin? Where are the men's shelters for domestic abuse? It has gone full retard in Australia where there are shelters for the pets of abused women. Try finding a shelter for male victims of abuse. Put the kettle on, it'll be some time.

Annasopra

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Gender shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether your life is difficult or not.

It shouldn't be. And I don't think it is the deciding factor but it certainly is a factor.

Widdershins

Wibbs wrote: »

Not even close to the same risk. Now these are UK figures, but given that we're very similar culturally.. From the article:

"Men commit more violent crime than women, by a mile. Around 85-90% of convicted murderers are men, a majority of the reported domestic abusers and pretty much all of those committing sexual attacks. However ? and this is the part that gets overlooked ? almost twice as many men than women are the victims of violence."

Even within domestic abuse, where women get the lion's share of sympathy and societal and government support it's not so clearcut:

"In discussions of domestic violence, it is often noted with alarm that women are killed at a rate of two per week, by usually male partners or ex-partners. But domestic violence is not exclusively male on female: the ONS statistics for 2011-12 show that while 1.2 million women experienced domestic violence, so too did 800,000 men. A 1994 University of Iowa paper by veteran criminal lawyer Alan Dershowitz reported that over 40% of US spousal murders are perpetrated by women"

This is the kinda problem I have around this subject. As others have rightly said, we should be looking at people, not genders, but guess which gender gets more attention and support and by quite the margin? Where are the men's shelters for domestic abuse? It has gone full retard in Australia where there are shelters for the pets of abused women. Try finding a shelter for male victims of abuse. Put the kettle on, it'll be some time.

Pet shelters obviously shouldn't take priority over human shelters and if there's a lack of mens shelters, I agree it's a problem but I don't think there's anything ridiculous about pet shelters. It's true that people might stay with an abuser because they know something vile would be done to a pet if they had to leave it behind. Even more so if the pets belong to the couple's children. I'm confident that it's a deciding factor in many cases of people staying when they should leave. Remove that fear and people feel braver about leaving a bad situation.

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

Just no.

Women have a longer life expectancy. That is down to basic wear and tear. Generally men work longer, dirtier, more dangerous jobs, for most of their lives.

Nobody would say it was a picnic having your period, or lesser pay in some workplaces, but that doesn't equate to a hard life

Well, baby boys are more likely to die at childbirth than baby girls. Are they in the womb with the pickaxes out, slaving away on a building site? Give over would ya!

It's not wear and tear. More likely protective effects of hormones, or that XX gives better longevity than XY. But in truth, it's undiscovered and unstudied. What is known, is that women survive illness better, but they don't come out unscathed. Women survive alright, get out alive so to speak from cardiac events etc, but they end up in poorer health, with more pain and ongoing problems.


Whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on your perspective really. Is it better to have a shorter life in good health, or a longer one in poorer health.

Widdershins

pwurple wrote: »

Well, baby boys are more likely to die at childbirth than baby girls. Are they in the womb with the pickaxes out, slaving away on a building site? Give over would ya!

It's not wear and tear. More likely protective effects of hormones, or that XX gives better longevity than XY. But in truth, it's undiscovered and unstudied. What is known, is that women survive illness better, but they don't come out unscathed. Women survive alright, get out alive so to speak from cardiac events etc, but they end up in poorer health, with more pain and ongoing problems.


Whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on your perspective really. Is it better to have a shorter life in good health, or a longer one in poorer health.

I was only just reading that women often delay getting medical attention for a potential heart attack until a more convenient time for their families. Female heart attacks don't seem to be as dramatic as men's so they can be missed more easily.

Pac1Man

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Here pacman if you have more than one willy to go around i think you should share!

I can't. I'm building a tower.

Widdershins

Beyondgone wrote: »

Yeah, growing. But they never have to climb up onto the roof and weld the bloody eaves. Or run a sandblaster.. It's Office and IT work. Not out in the rain getting set on fire by a blazing gas torch. That's "mans work". :rolleyes: How come it's always "we want equality!" on the nice jobs, but never "we want equality!" when it comes to emptying the septic tank?

Weld the eaves? Do you have a lead roof?

In fairness, men might get some training from their fathers,as boys, but girls usually grow up without that. So we all fall into the kinds of things we already have a knack for and a bit of experience with.

I do agree it can't be all equality until it's time for the unpleasant jobs but I wouldn't be built for some of the physical work that men do for me at times. Although I'd usually at least have a go. And I am sure a woman with a pair of weather beaten hands like mine wouldn't hold as much appeal as one with pretty 'office' hands, for a lot of men.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

Well, baby boys are more likely to die at childbirth than baby girls. Are they in the womb with the pickaxes out, slaving away on a building site? Give over would ya!

It's not wear and tear. More likely protective effects of hormones, or that XX gives better longevity than XY. But in truth, it's undiscovered and unstudied. What is known, is that women survive illness better, but they don't come out unscathed. Women survive alright, get out alive so to speak from cardiac events etc, but they end up in poorer health, with more pain and ongoing problems.


Whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on your perspective really. Is it better to have a shorter life in good health, or a longer one in poorer health.

reductio ad absurdum

Thank you

Murrisk

LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »

Well it depends if you mean globally or here in the West. If you're talking about here then there are advantages and disadvantages to being male or female. On the whole in this day and age I think that they mostly balance each other out. I think the circumstances that you're born into are far more important to be honest.

Murrisk wrote: »

+1

Definitely a much greater indicator of how your life will pan out than what gender you happen to be.

On this, I'm currently reading The Life Project by Helen Pearson. It's about the longitudinal studies on babies born in the UK at intervals of ten or fifteen years, starting in 1946. It's fascinating but also kinda depressing. It highlights how hamstrung people really are by the circumstances into they were born and raised.

Widdershins

Why is menstruation held up as some kind of huge monthly trial for women. Unless there's a medical problem causing periods to be much worse than normal, it's really not that bad. ''Can you bleed for a week and not die'' is such a silly thing to say. It's about three tablespoons of blood over a number of days (Or so I've read, I can't say I've ever checked!) but some people make it sound like we almost need a monthly blood transfusion.

When it goes awry it really can be an awful experience for more than a week per month, but it's not a given that women really suffer every month.

Deise Vu

There is clearly no definitive answer to this. Consider for a minute two certain 'facts' that we do know about the sexes: (A) Women are better at tolerating pain and (B) Women live longer partly because they will go to a doctor straightaway if something is wrong whereas men will just shrug their shoulders, accept the pain and get on with it.

If you can reconcile those two 'facts' you deserve the Nobel for metaphysics.

Moving from facts to opinions I think, on the face of it, men appear to have the better life. No child bearing responsibilities, physically stronger and generally not tied to the house / kids in later life. However, there is an enormous pressure on males to be strong and to be the main earner. In my opinion this is the reason for the higher level of male suicide when the burden of expectation from family, friends or spouse becomes too much. Unfortunately too many men have their personal self esteem tied up in their image of what the so-called head of the household should be able to provide and they just can't cope with financial or other setbacks.

In my own circle throughout life I have seen plenty of women happy to swan around, working part-time at best, while the male kills himself in a stressful job. I have only ever experienced the reverse a couple of times in my life, despite all the accepted clichés about lazy husbands.

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

reductio ad absurdum

Thank you

Why don't you enlighten me on infant mortality rates and the gender divide?

Or do you also think it's male lifestyle choices, in that ridiculously short period.

BBDBB

cbyrd wrote: »

Surprisingly, giving birth hasn't been mentioned


I win.

neither has a kick in the balls, women will often want more than one child and are prepared to go through it all again

no man has ever said, "you know, I think Id like another kick in the balls"

case closed ;-)


ps congratulations on the new arrival

Murrisk

Deise Vu wrote: »

Moving from facts to opinions I think, on the face of it, men appear to have the better life. No child bearing responsibilities, physically stronger and generally not tied to the house / kids in later life.

This is one area where women are still much worse off and it's a biggie. Overall, women still do the majority of housework. So, they might not do the once yearly job of cleaning out the gutters or whatever, but they do most of the everyday drudgery still, despite being as likely to be working full-time.

Now, I know this post will probably attract anecdotes about how the work in such and such poster's house is split down the middle and I wouldn't doubt those tales, but any stats I've seen on the subject still shows a male/female divide.

I went through this in my own relationship a few years back. I moved from working from home to working in the office which gave me considerably less free time every day. But my now-husband was still perfectly happy for me to handle pretty much ALL the cooking, cleaning and food-shopping. If I didn't do these things, they just wouldn't be done. The bin would go unchanged for a week. I'd also have to be the one to always clean the bin. I did all the grocery shopping. Cooked every evening, cooked all our lunches for the week, spent a good portion of every weekend preparing for the week ahead. Having so much on my plate took away my love of cooking. Did the dishwasher loading and unloading. And all the rest. With him looking on, unmoved. And I did not want to be a nag, I hated that our circumstances were almost bringing me to that point. My husband has a pretty stressful job too so that was also a factor in my not wanting to nag. It got to a stage where I was utterly miserable. I would dread coming home in the evening because I knew I wouldn't get to sit for probably an hour and a half to two hours after I got home. And of course I'd be too knackered for sex. And whilst my job was less stressful, it was still a forty hour week that it took over an hour each way to get to and from. I had as little free time as he did, but had to spend most of it working, including a good chunk of my weekends.

It all came to a head one evening. I can't remember what was the catalyst but I just exploded. I realised in that moment that I didn't want to be in the relationship anymore if this was what it entailed. I just remember saying "this isn't a life". That sticks out in my memory. And I really meant it all. Being alone to me was much more attractive a prospect than being a skivy. At least I would only to be in charge of one person, not two. And this was a man I loved. I was willing to throw it all away. We rowed that night, but the next night, we worked out how to save our relationship and make things more equitable.

I know reading this, people will think he's just an asshole and not the norm, but the thing is, he's not remotely an asshole. He is a good person. He is just... conditioned. Growing up, he would done dirtier but much less frequent jobs. The housework just... happened around him. Oblivious would how I would term it.

I think this is important to highlight to show what a toll doing most of the housework on top of working can take on someone's lives and this is something that still happens in a lot of households, to a lot of women. It's not an inconsiderable problem and I think it's downplayed.

GLaDOS

In the Western world, I'd say the differences are close enough that individual variation (Birth circumstances, genetics, dumb luck) has a greater influence on the quality of life than your gender. If I had to pick I'd probably lean towards men having it more difficult (although, as a man, I really don't feel like it's been something that has held me back!).

In 3rd world countries and mysoginistic shitholes like Saudi Arabia, women have it worse without question.

I suppose globally speaking, it would be fair to say women have it worse.

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

This is one area where women are still much worse off and it's a biggie. Overall, women still do the majority of housework. So, they might not do the once yearly job of cleaning out the gutters or whatever, but they do most of the everyday drudgery still, despite being as likely to be working full-time.

Now, I know this post will probably attract anecdotes about how the work in such and such poster's house is split down the middle and I wouldn't doubt those tales, but any stats I've seen on the subject still shows a male/female divide.

I went through this in my own relationship a few years back. I moved from working from home to working in the office which gave me considerably less free time every day. But my now-husband was still perfectly happy for me to handle pretty much ALL the cooking, cleaning and food-shopping. If I didn't do these things, they just wouldn't be done. The bin would go unchanged for a week. I'd also have to be the one to always clean the bin. I did all the grocery shopping. Cooked every evening, cooked all our lunches for the week, spent a good portion of every weekend preparing for the week ahead. Having so much on my plate took away my love of cooking. Did the dishwasher loading and unloading. And all the rest. With him looking on, unmoved. And I did not want to be a nag, I hated that our circumstances were almost bringing me to that point. My husband has a pretty stressful job too so that was also a factor in my not wanting to nag. It got to a stage where I was utterly miserable. I would dread coming home in the evening because I knew I wouldn't get to sit for probably an hour and a half to two hours after I got home. And of course I'd be too knackered for sex. And whilst my job was less stressful, it was still a forty hour week that it took over an hour each way to get to and from. I had as little free time as he did, but had to spend most of it working, including a good chunk of my weekends.

It all came to a head one evening. I can't remember what was the catalyst but I just exploded. I realised in that moment that I didn't want to be in the relationship anymore if this was what it entailed. I just remember saying "this isn't a life". That sticks out in my memory. And I really meant it all. Being alone to me was much more attractive a prospect than being a skivy. At least I would only to be in charge of one person, not two. And this was a man I loved. I was willing to throw it all away. We rowed that night, but the next night, we worked out how to save our relationship and make things more equitable.

I know reading this, people will think he's just an asshole and not the norm, but the thing is, he's not remotely an asshole. He is a good person. He is just... conditioned. Growing up, he would done dirtier but much less frequent jobs. The housework just... happened around him. Oblivious would how I would term it.

I think this is important to highlight to show what a toll doing most of the housework on top of working can take on someone's lives and this is something that still happens in a lot of households, to a lot of women. It's not an inconsiderable problem and I think it's downplayed.

How long were yous married before you exploded rather than just speak to him like an adult?

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

How long were yous married before you exploded rather than just speak to him like an adult?

As I said in my post, we weren't married at the time. "Now-husband". The situation I describe can come about much easier than you think. It almost crept up on me.

Another issue is being dismissed as a nag if you ask someone to pitch in and help.

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

As I said in my post, we weren't married at the time. "Now-husband".

How long did it go on for?

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

How long did it go on for?

That situation? Maybe three or four months. If I was doing a little less but still the majority, it could have been a lot longer though and this would the case for many women. Because it was a more extreme case, it probably resolved quicker.

Nobody wants to nag and many women will avoid it if they can. I certainly don't enjoy nagging. And that often results in having to pick up a lot of the slack when it comes to housework. That is the reality for a lot of women. I hope it changes though because it is absolutely soul-destroying. I think how time-consuming housework can be is hugely underestimated.

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

That situation? Maybe three or four months. If I was doing a little less but still the majority, it could have been a lot longer though and this would the case for many women. Because it was a more extreme case, it probably resolved quicker.

Nobody wants to nag and many women will avoid it if they can. I certainly don't enjoy nagging. And that often results in having to pick up a lot of the slack when it comes to housework. That is the reality for a lot of women. I hope it changes though because it is absolutely soul-destroying. I think how time-consuming housework can be is hugely underestimated.

Did you ever say it? There's a difference between saying something and nagging.

One eyed Jack

Murrisk wrote: »

This is one area where women are still much worse off and it's a biggie. Overall, women still do the majority of housework.

...

Now, I know this post will probably attract anecdotes...

...

I went through this in my own relationship a few years back...

I do take your point though, and you're right in one way, but couldn't be more wrong in another, in that you aren't acknowledging that women are also in just the same way your husband is conditioned, many women are also conditioned not only to assume the role of the "keeper of domestic bliss", but many women actually take pride in their capabilities and achievements with regard to keeping a tidy house, rearing children and so on. They actually reject the notion that not only should they be responsible for the day to day running of the family home, but that they should also be working outside the family home in order for society to recognise their value!

Of course that extra pressure being expected of them mainly by themselves and by other women it has to be said, is going to leave those women feeling stressed out and feeling like because they aren't working in paid employment, that they are of lesser value to society than women who try to do it all and to have it all and to be everything to all people.

Sometimes I really do feel that some women are their own worst enemy, and that has nothing to do with men.

LadyMacBeth_

Murrisk wrote: »

That situation? Maybe three or four months. If I was doing a little less but still the majority, it could have been a lot longer though and this would the case for many women. Because it was a more extreme case, it probably resolved quicker.

Nobody wants to nag and many women will avoid it if they can. I certainly don't enjoy nagging. And that often results in having to pick up a lot of the slack when it comes to housework. That is the reality for a lot of women. I hope it changes though because it is absolutely soul-destroying. I think how time-consuming housework can be is hugely underestimated.

Both of my parents worked full time when I was a child, but my mother did all of the housework and grocery shopping, cooking etc. My dad simply refused to do those things and still does. My parents aren't elderly either, both in their fifties. My mum works part time now so she doesn't mind doing the extra work but it was a cause of friction in their marriage and resulted in me and my sister having to take on extra daily chores such as cooking/cleaning when we got home from school because my father refused to help out.

I married a woman though and we argue over who will do the housework because we feel guilty if one does it, there is usually a fight over who will hang up the washing, ''I will do it'', ''no I will do it'', ''ok, can I help? ''No, go away!''

Ah lesbian relationships FTW.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you ever say it? There's a difference between saying something and nagging.

If a person genuinely needs to be directly told that, as an healthy adult member of a household, they should be pulling their weight when it comes to cleaning up after themselves and fecking feeding themselves then perhaps they are not ready to live in the world of adults. I know it's kind of a kneejerk thing around here to leap to the defence of the poor downtrodden men of Ireland, but come on...

kunst nugget

Deleted User wrote: »

Then there's this stating the opposite 17% figure:

http://www.shemazing.net/clocked-out-irish-women-take-to-twitter-to-mark-gender-pay-gap/

That's because women don't understand how statistics work because they're too busy with their periods. Women! Know your place!

I actually think the confusion comes from how the Women's Council presented the information. IIRC, rather than saying that women earn 17% more than men before childbirth, they said the gender pay gap between men and women was -17% which was obviously very easily misread as this article attests.

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you ever say it? There's a difference between saying something and nagging.

Yes, it says so in the post I wrote? Anything less dramatic than I described can be dismissed as nagging, believe me.