Men or Women, who has a harder life?

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

If a person genuinely needs to be directly told that, as an healthy adult member of a household, they should be pulling their weight when it comes to cleaning up after themselves and fecking feeding themselves then perhaps they are not ready to live in the world of adults. I know it's kind of a kneejerk thing around here to leap to the defence of the poor downtrodden men of Ireland, but come on...

If someone will put up with it and make excuses for them they have to take some responsibility.

Murrisk

LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »

Both of my parents worked full time when I was a child, but my mother did all of the housework and grocery shopping, cooking etc. My dad simply refused to do those things and still does.

Same. During the recession, my mother was working MORE hours than my father, much more, and yet still doing all the housework and cooking. It's infuriating.

Neon_Lights

My girlfriend quantifies this by saying "how would you like to shove a lemon out of your Japs eye" i.e. Women have it harder cause childbirth..... I've futily argued against this

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone will put up with it and make excuses for them they have to take some responsibility.

No, I'm sorry that's pathetic; we're talking about grown adults here, not toddlers.

Adults take responsibility for their own actions, it is beyond laughable to claim otherwise.

Murrisk

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I do take your point though, and you're right in one way, but couldn't be more wrong in another, in that you aren't acknowledging that women are also in just the same way your husband is conditioned, many women are also conditioned not only to assume the role of the "keeper of domestic bliss", but many women actually take pride in their capabilities and achievements with regard to keeping a tidy house, rearing children and so on. They actually reject the notion that not only should they be responsible for the day to day running of the family home, but that they should also be working outside the family home in order for society to recognise their value!

Well, what I can say, none of this describes me and our situation. And I know I'm not alone in that. Housework is a pain. My mother takes no pride in it either. It's drudgery and when both parties are full-time workers and neither enjoys it, the drudgery should be doled out evenly.

Widdershins

B0jangles wrote: »

No, I'm sorry that's pathetic; we're talking about grown adults here, not toddlers.

Adults take responsibility for their own actions, it is beyond laughable to claim otherwise.

I agree. Just, fupp that.

And that's from someone who doesn't mind housework.

Man-children are not attractive or good company or good additions to your life.

kunst nugget

Murrisk wrote: »

Well, what I can say, none of this describes me and our situation. And I know I'm not alone in that. Housework is a pain. My mother takes no pride in it either. It's drudgery and when both parties are full-time workers and neither enjoys it, the drudgery should be doled out evenly.

Too right, I fooking hate it but I'd hate dumping it all the missus even more. Sharing the wealth means everyone suffers and that's great for me because I'm a sadomasochist.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

No, I'm sorry that's pathetic; we're talking about grown adults here, not toddlers.

Adults take responsibility for their own actions, it is beyond laughable to claim otherwise.

If my mate goes out with a mentaller it's his fault. If a woman goes out with a useless lump it's his fault. Gotcha.

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B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

If my mate goes out with a mentaller it's his fault. If a woman goes out with a useless lump it's his fault. Gotcha.

Yes, it is entirely his fault that he is a useless lump - he should do his best to stop being a useless lump instead of relying on the support of internet strangers who are bizarrely keen to defend his right to be a useless lump.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Yes, it is entirely his fault that he is a useless lump - he should do his best to stop being a useless lump instead of relying on internet strangers who are bizarrely keen to defend his right to be a useless lump.

Or if someone you're in a relationship with has a character defect that gets to you then maybe bring it up rather than waiting til you explode and use it as an example of how in the entire country women are treated like that.
And who the **** is defending him? I wouldn't go out with a woman for ages, live with them for 3 months with something like that hanging over everything the whole time until I explode.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Or if someone you're in a relationship with has a character defect that gets to you then maybe bring it up rather than waiting til you explode and use it as an example of how in the entire country women are treated like that.
And who the **** is defending him? I wouldn't go out with a woman for ages, live with them for 3 months with something like that hanging over everything the whole time until I explode.

Hey, you were the one who kept going on and on looking for details of when and if the OP had openly brought up the question of whether an adult man should clean up after himself and possibly feed himself sometimes. (But not in any kind of a nagging way, because that would be wrong).

If you*, an adult human being, do not realise that it's no-one's job to clean up after you and feed you (unless you are paying for a maid and a cook), then... I don't know... I think you might just be a bit of a dummy.

Or extremely lazy and selfish.

*a generic 'you', not specifically directed at anyone in the thread.

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

Or if someone you're in a relationship with has a character defect that gets to you then maybe bring it up rather than waiting til you explode and use it as an example of how in the entire country women are treated like that.
And who the **** is defending him? I wouldn't go out with a woman for ages, live with them for 3 months with something like that hanging over everything the whole time until I explode.

It was an example but the reality is that women still shoulder most of the housework. And it's not for love of housework either for many. Why do you think that is?

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Hey, you were the one who kept going on and on looking for details of when and if the OP had openly brought up the question of whether an adult man should clean up after himself and possibly feed himself sometimes. (But not in any kind of a nagging way, because that would be wrong).

Question? She was wondering if a grown man should clean up?
She brought up "nagging", not me.

If you, an adult human being, do not realise that it's no-one's job to clean up after you and feed you (unless you are paying for a maid and a cook), then... I don't know... I think you might just be a bit of a dummy.

Or extremely lazy and selfish.

Yes. He very much is. And someone who facilitates that and uses it in an online discussion for how hard women have it in the entire country could, let's be diplomatic, learn to be a bit more assertive.

One eyed Jack

Murrisk wrote: »

Well, what I can say, none of this describes me and our situation. And I know I'm not alone in that. Housework is a pain. My mother takes no pride in it either. It's drudgery and when both parties are full-time workers and neither enjoys it, the drudgery should be doled out evenly.

I already acknowledged that none of it describes you, or your mum, which is why I thought it was funny when you said "I know this post will attract anecdotes...", and then you used an anecdote of your own to make your point.

If I were to use anecdotes of my own, I could have used my current situation where even though we are now separated, my wife still calls in and cleans up the the place, puts everything away where I can find nothing, does all the laundry even though I insist that she doesn't, because I prefer to leave it over to the laundrette (at least she still lets me do my own ironing!), and that was a contributing factor in our separation - I felt like a lodger rather than a husband, and I often told her since that if I wanted a house maid, I'd hire one. I don't need one though as I'm perfectly capable of independent living.

I wouldn't extrapolate out my own personal experience to be indicative of a whole lot though, but I would base my opinion on the numbers of women I have talked to over the years about these issues.

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

It was an example but the reality is that women still shoulder most of the housework. And it's not for love of housework either for many. Why do you think that is?

For younger people? I lived in a houseshare with a woman and I'd say the housework was about 50/50. Included in her half was tidying her room which would take a day and cleaning up massive messes she would make a couple of days later. My half was pretty much all the common areas. There ya go, one example, therefore women make more mess and expect others to clean up after themselves.
I put up with it because I had little choice at the time. I shan't again. I don't believe all women are like that (though I've witnessed plenty who are).

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

Question? She was wondering if a grown man should clean up?
She brought up "nagging", not me.

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you ever say it? There's a difference between saying something and nagging.

It seems to matter to you that men be told that they should clean up after themselves and feed themselves in a non-nagging way. Why is that?

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Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

It was an example but the reality is that women still shoulder most of the housework. And it's not for love of housework either for many. Why do you think that is?

At what age group? Older people it's a generational thing.
There's also a cohort where the man and woman's idea of "fine" is very different in which case either compromise should be reached or as I've fairly often seen happening the woman will do extra work and complain.
And there's the lazy bastard lads with mammies/enablers.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

At what age group? Older people it's a generational thing.
There's also a cohort where the man and woman's idea of "fine" is very different in which case either compromise should be reached or as I've fairly often seen happening the woman will do extra work and complain.
And there's the lazy bastard lads with mammies/enablers.

The irony is strong in this one.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

It seems to matter to you that men be told that they should clean up after themselves and feed themselves in a non-nagging way. Why is that?

No, she said she didn't want to be a nag. I was asking if she ever said it at all, because she seemed to think that it would come across as nagging. Maybe re-read the posts, I don't know if you misread something or just picked a "side" and want to stick to it.

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

The irony is strong in this one.

What are you talking about?

Permabear

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Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

At what age group? Older people it's a generational thing.
There's also a cohort where the man and woman's idea of "fine" is very different in which case either compromise should be reached or as I've fairly often seen happening the woman will do extra work and complain.
And there's the lazy bastard lads with mammies/enablers.

Well, I'm early 30s.

The reason I didn't say something sooner was because I was really hoping he would notice and interject sooner. That it might occur to him by himself. That was the hope! But sadly, no.

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Since Murrisk posted her little anecdote you have posted at length and repeatedly along the lines that it is somehow her fault for not telling a grown adult that he should be cleaning up after himself and feeding himself.

If any similarly domestically challenged guys are reading this thread they could feel emboldened by your posts to continue being lazy at home - ergo you would be enabling them in their useless lumpery.

Murrisk

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I'd need to go searching but I saw a recent article on the subject and women are still shouldering most of the housework. Whenever it comes up, this is the upshot.

The civil service ban on married women is gone a long time. It's not that.

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

Well, I'm early 30s.

The reason I didn't say something sooner was because I was really hoping he would notice and interject sooner. That it might occur to him by himself. That was the hope! But sadly, no.

Took ya a while. :pac: I wouldn't put up with someone doing that crap, that's all my point was. Sad that there are adults who behave like that.

B0jangles wrote: »

Since Murrisk posted her little anecdote you have posted at length and repeatedly along the lines that it is somehow her fault for not telling a grown adult that he should be cleaning up after himself and feeding himself.

That's a lie.

If any similarly domestically challenged guys are reading this thread they could feel emboldened by your posts to continue being lazy at home - ergo you would be enabling them in their useless lumpery.

I'm flattered that you think I have that much influence.
How would you put it when someone mammies a grown man then?

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

For younger people? I lived in a houseshare with a woman and I'd say the housework was about 50/50. Included in her half was tidying her room which would take a day and cleaning up massive messes she would make a couple of days later. My half was pretty much all the common areas. There ya go, one example, therefore women make more mess and expect others to clean up after themselves.
I put up with it because I had little choice at the time. I shan't again. I don't believe all women are like that (though I've witnessed plenty who are).

From my own, very extensive, housesharing experience (50+ housemates), women did more housework on average and the quality of the housework was much better.

kunst nugget

Murrisk wrote: »

From my own, very extensive, housesharing experience (50+ housemates), women did more housework on average and the quality of the housework was much better.

I'll be honest - in a housesharing situation I was never going to give two shíts about housework - I'd do the bare minimum not to be a dick. Being in a relationship is a different story for me.

Murrisk

kunst nugget wrote: »

I'll be honest - in a housesharing situation I was never going to give two shíts about housework - I'd do the bare minimum not to be a dick. Being in a relationship is a different story for me.

Yes, good point but still, nobody likes living in a tip, even if it is a house share!

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

Why don't you enlighten me on infant mortality rates and the gender divide?

Or do you also think it's male lifestyle choices, in that ridiculously short period.

You can't enlighten that which has no wick

Permabear

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koumi

Permabear wrote: »

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made me think of my mother doing the laundry when I was a kid, she had one of those big manual twin drum machines that physically had to be hauled out into the middle of the kitchen to be filled, then stood over for two hours for washing and spinning. She would do it at night a couple of times a week and then she would set the table for breakfast in the morning, making sure my dad had his prepared before work. She raised seven of us and that was just the last job of the day, not including the getting us all fed and ready for school, dinners and just general house cleaning that went with all that. Such a life, I never dreamed of getting married and I suspect believing that would be my fate had a lot to do with it.

Being single I do all my own chores, indoor and outdoor. I've built things with my hands, put up shelves, fitted a fireplace, laid a patio, I'd be lost without a toolbox and a decent piece of drill kit. I'm responsible for all my maintenance and probably wouldn't know how to cope if someone else had a hand in it at all. (includes raising a kid alone too) if any man tried tell me he has it harder than me just because he's a man, I walk away.

Syphonax

Permabear wrote: »

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How true. Its like there is no labour involved in keeping the outside of the house from falling into disrepair. Its almost seen by (women) as something we enjoy doing when the most satisfaction I get out of doing it is when its all done!

Permabear

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koumi

Permabear wrote: »

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I read that with a southern twang :0) (she sounds like someone I'd like a lot)

Murrisk

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes, but as I've said, the DIY jobs tend to be more sporadic. Even mowing the law is a once a week, half the year job. Give me sporadic DIY any day over handling the daily grind of housework that needs constant tending to. And actually, in our household, I tackle my fair share of DIY. Putting together flat-oack furniture, varnishing, these are all things I've alone recently.

greencap

koumi wrote: »

Being single I do all my own chores, indoor and outdoor. I've built things with my hands, put up shelves, fitted a fireplace, laid a patio, I'd be lost without a toolbox and a decent piece of drill kit. I'm responsible for all my maintenance and probably wouldn't know how to cope if someone else had a hand in it at all. (includes raising a kid alone too) if any man tried tell me he has it harder than me just because he's a man, I walk away.

mmmmm hmmmm

Syphonax

Permabear wrote: »

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Best Southpark voice "she took your job"

Permabear

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koumi

greencap wrote: »

mmmmm hmmmm

I'm not anti man fwiw, I've known quite a few bums in my time though and don't give them no heed. Everything has a southern drawl to it now, tanks.

Permabear

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Persephone kindness

Well a girl has just been sectioned here for needing an abortion ..sooo

Persephone kindness

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Well a girl has just been sectioned here for needing an abortion ..sooo

So?

Persephone kindness

Deleted User wrote: »

So?

It's harder knock life for us

Murrisk

Permabear wrote: »

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I think each couple needs to look at the entirety of what needs to be done in the household and work out an equitable way of dealing with it. In our household, it's about 60/40 towards me because my work day is 30 minutes shorter and my job is less stressful.

But the daily grind that seems to still fall more to women still should not be underestimated. It's less physically tiring but mentally, it can be a trial if it expands to fill most of your free time and mental space.

As I said, it's not a life.

Persephone kindness

Murrisk wrote: »

I think each couple needs to look at the entirety of what needs to be done in the household and work out an equitable way of dealing with it. In our household, it's about 60/40 towards me because my work day is 30 minutes shorter and my job is less stressful.

But the daily grind that seems to still fall more to women still should not be underestimated. It's less physically tiring but mentally, it can be a trial if it expands to fill most of your free time and mental space.

As I said, it's not a life.

Running a household is a career for some people.

Potatoeman

I did see a study that pointed to women having a better scenes of smell so were more likely to clean sooner.

Personally what I notice is that many women frequently redo jobs that they asked their partner to do as it wasn't done 'right', which is how they want it.

Housework is exaggerated, loading and unloading washing machines and dishwashers are a 20minute task at most. Cooking can be done quickly too if you are busy. I have no idea how people are spending so much time cleaning. If you have kids sure but someone working should not have that clean their house everyday a weekend clean up should be enough with minor cleaning midweek.

Permabear

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Sprog 4

wakka12 wrote: »

I recognise that there are most certainly pros and cons to being both genders

Struggling to think of any advantages to being a hermaphrodite. Maybe sports?