Ireland vs Austria, World Cup Qualifier, kick-off 5pm, RTE 2 & Sky Sports 1

Cervantes2

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I said the 11 players they fielded
You rightly pointed out Alaba but I'm stating that's only one player
That Austria team was still weak in comparison in it's entirety

I agree Austria were weaker than normal. But we were missing Long, Coleman and McCarthy.
There was little difference between the teams imo.

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

Bolloxology of the highest order.

Did he not start against Austria in November? Against Italy, against Sweden?

Would he not have been "tested further" at these games?

Did he complete either of these games? No, he did not. Which is likely a reason he was on the bench against France, against Italy, against Serbia, against Wales, and now against Austria (in the first game the first sub off the bench was David Meyler - it's not as if we were flooded for options). He's our most technically skilled player, but starting him is automatically forfeiting a sub so it comes down to whether he would be more effective against fresh legs or tired ones. I'm not saying it would be a crime to start him, I'm wouldn't have actually minded it and would personally have preferred to see him on at half time - but at his age it is very understandable to have him come off the bench.

Particularly given he has had a FOUR WEEK break since the Championship ended.

Having a four week break does not make him younger.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

tbf Billy I'd argue that most of the Championship level teams were better than the 11 players Austria fielded last Sunday
I'd be of the opinion that he should have started and we would of at least got 50 good minutes of of him

I wouldn't be so sure on that in fairness. It definitely wasn't their strongest team, but as best I'm aware all but one or two players (based in Austria) play top flight football in the Bundesliga for the likes of Leverkusen, Schalke, and Werder Bremen (one other one being Prodl who plays for Watford).

I do agree we would have got 50+ minutes after him and maybe bringing him on at the half might have made more sense - I also wouldn't have been totally opposed to him -

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

Did he complete either of these games? No, he did not. Which is likely a reason he was on the bench against France, against Italy, against Serbia, against Wales, and now against Austria (in the first game the first sub off the bench was David Meyler - it's not as if we were flooded for options). He's our most technically skilled player, but starting him is automatically forfeiting a sub so it comes down to whether he would be more effective against fresh legs or tired ones. I'm not saying it would be a crime to start him, I'm wouldn't have actually minded it and would personally have preferred to see him on at half time - but at his age it is very understandable to have him come off the bench.

Having a four week break does not make him younger.
-

Don't change the goalposts.

Start for ireland was the baseline, not complete 90 for Ireland.

"likely a reason"... More likely is MON is conservative rather than your armchair analysis that concludes a player can start 30 games in the Championship and contribute key moments in internationals but can't start.

Walters nearly 34, no bother starting.

How you could be happy or even neutral with him not starting after seeing what we served up first half is surprising.

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

Don't change the goalposts.

Start for ireland was the baseline, not complete 90 for Ireland.

The goalposts you've literally just created. He started three games for Ireland against tough competition including Belgium (one where our midfield was depleted, against Austria) and didn't finish any of them. He was on the bench for another five.

"likely a reason"... More likely is MON is conservative rather than your armchair analysis that concludes a player can start 30 games in the Championship and contribute key moments in internationals but can't start.

Funny line about 'armchair analysis' unless you want to tell me about your time as a professional manager that I'm unaware of, because otherwise you're in the exact same boat along with just about everyone in this thread while Martin O'Neill who decided he is better used off the bench is both a highly experienced and a successful manager.

I would have preferred the substitution made earlier, but the fact is if you start him you're down to two subs for the game pretty much by default so it becomes a matter of if he is going to be more effective against fresh opposition earlier in the game or tired opposition later in the game. When was the last time he played 90 competitive minutes for Ireland?

Walters nearly 34, no bother starting.

Walters is a better athlete, unless you want to try arguing against that with a straight face. He doesn't play as regularly for Stoke because they have a considerably more talented squad than Norwich yet in his 13 starts he played the full 90 for 10 of them - and that's at Premier League level. Age is catching and will continue to, don't expect him to be a regular starter for us in 2019 when he is also 35.

How you could be happy or even neutral with him not starting after seeing what we served up first half is surprising.

It's because while he's our best technical player and I do like him, I don't subscribe to this "the Irish Messi" nonsense. He's not getting up in years, he's already well and truly there, and we need to utilise him as best we can to get the most out of him in a game.

gormdubhgorm

I just went through the Austria starting team that played v Ireland


Heinz Lindner (GK) 2 appearances for Eintracht Frankfurt in the German Bundesliga all season, none last season and now has 12 caps



Stefan Lainer (DF) plays for Salzburg the champions of the Austrian Bundesliga (who failed to qualify for the champions league lost last play off game to Diamo Zagreb) – 2 caps


Sebastian Prödl (DF) experienced Watford player thier most experienced international who started the game - 63 caps


Aleksandar Dragovic (DF) experienced Bayer Leverkusen player with champions league experience - 54 caps


Martin Hinteregger (DF) now scored two goals for Austria plays for Augsburg a lower midtable team in the German Bundesliga who finshed 13th - 25 caps


Zlatko Junuzović (MF) experienced player who plays for Werder Bremen who finished 8th in the German Bundesliga -52 caps

Julian Baumgartlinger (MF) plays for Bayern Leverkusen since last season 17 appearances for them - champions league experience – experienced international - 52 caps

Florian Kainz (MF) he is another who plays for Werder Bremen (signed last season) with 14 appearances for them - 2 caps


David Alaba their (DF/MF) Bayern Munich star man head and shoulders above the rest of the players -55 caps


Valentino Lazaro (MF) only 21 - attacking midfielder for Salzburg already (Must be an up and coming player) - 8 caps

Guido Burgstaller (FW) plays for Schalke in the German bundesliga (where they finished 10th) he scored 9 goals in 18 appearances for them – although he is 28 he only is barely in double figure caps for Austria
(played for Nurnburg in the German second division the season before signing for Schalke) - 11 caps

The whole starting team look just as bad/good as the Irish team on paper (as a whole excluding Alaba - who did not play to his usual levels)

Yet they still managed to look way better then the Irish team, for most of the game?

Not sure we even need to go through it player by player or analyse the Bundesliga and the English Premier League.

Bottom line, we beat them in Vienna. We then lined up a packed midfield of workmanlike players and a workmanlike striker (admittedly very short on options there) for the home game, and got the draw. Exactly as we played for. And some people will naturally think that it's a pity we didn't approach the game with our most creative player. We all know the arguments, he's getting on, he's not Messi, he's not high tempo. But it's just a little disappointing for me. You play for the draw, you get the draw, the management can't be upset.

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

The goalposts you've literally just created. He started three games for Ireland against tough competition including Belgium (one where our midfield was depleted, against Austria) and didn't finish any of them. He was on the bench for another five.

Funny line about 'armchair analysis' unless you want to tell me about your time as a professional manager that I'm unaware of, because otherwise you're in the exact same boat along with just about everyone in this thread while Martin O'Neill who decided he is better used off the bench is both a highly experienced and a successful manager.

I would have preferred the substitution made earlier, but the fact is if you start him you're down to two subs for the game pretty much by default so it becomes a matter of if he is going to be more effective against fresh opposition earlier in the game or tired opposition later in the game. When was the last time he played 90 competitive minutes for Ireland?

Walters is a better athlete, unless you want to try arguing against that with a straight face. He doesn't play as regularly for Stoke because they have a considerably more talented squad than Norwich yet in his 13 starts he played the full 90 for 10 of them - and that's at Premier League level. Age is catching and will continue to, don't expect him to be a regular starter for us in 2019 when he is also 35.


It's because while he's our best technical player and I do like him, I don't subscribe to this "the Irish Messi" nonsense. He's not getting up in years, he's already well and truly there, and we need to utilise him as best we can to get the most out of him in a game.

You've changed your tact now, pretending we were talking about playing 90 rather than starting.

Irish Messi is nonsense alright and it's foolish of you to even use such a facetious and hyperbolic strawman argument to defend his exclusion.

I'll bring it back to the base point:

1) He started 30 league games for Norwich (possibly league or face cup starts as well).

2) Was their player of the season.

3) Has started numerous games for Ireland in TV e last year including a started in Austria, a harder fixture.

4) Has had a four week competitive break.

Now, after all that, if you still feel there is is sufficient empirical evidence that he can't start for Ireland then we are at an impasse we can't bridge and I'll leave it there for the sake of derailing the thread further.

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

You've changed your tact now, pretending we were talking about playing 90 rather than starting.

Playing 90 is quite literally what I have been talking about from the off. I think I've mentioned it in every single post so far.



I personally don't mind Hoolahan being on the bench - on the caveat that he is essentially guaranteed to come on. The truth of it is that he is 35, full games are going to be a real challenge for him to get through


...

I'd consider only playing the full 90 in 2/3rd of his games for Norwich (and only playing in 2/3rds of their league games at that) at Championship level pretty strong evidence for it to be honest.

...

No... he played 33 of those 46 games (30 starts, 3 subs)... about 2/3rds of them. In those 30 starts, he played 90 minutes in 19 of them, about 2/3 of the time. I have no idea where you got him playing thirty 90 minute games for Norwich this season from?

...


So why did he only play 90 minutes on 19 occasions throughout the year? Because you're wrong again claiming he was only available for 33 games (you could at least click the link I've given you) - he was in the match day squad for 40 yet played the full 90 in less than half of those.

...

Because, as I have repeatedly said and as you seem to be having severe difficulty understanding, he couldn't see out even 2/3rds of those games, at Championship level. Against good international sides like Austria he is going to be tested even further and would likely wear down even faster.

...

Did he complete either of these games? No, he did not. Which is likely a reason he was on the bench against France, against Italy, against Serbia, against Wales, and now against Austria (in the first game the first sub off the bench was David Meyler - it's not as if we were flooded for options). He's our most technically skilled player, but starting him is automatically forfeiting a sub so it comes down to whether he would be more effective against fresh legs or tired ones.

Billy86

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I just went through the Austria starting team that played v Ireland


Heinz Lindner (GK) 2 appearances for Eintracht Frankfurt in the German Bundesliga all season, none last season and now has 11 caps



Stefan Lainer (DF) plays for Salzburg the champions of the Austrian Bundesliga (who failed to qualify for the champions league lost last play off game to Diamo Zagreb) – 2 caps


Sebastian Prödl (DF) experienced Watford player thier most experienced international who started the game - 63 caps


Aleksandar Dragovic (DF) experienced Bayer Leverkusen player with champions league experience - 54 caps


Martin Hinteregger (DF) now scored two goals for Austria plays for Augsburg a lower midtable team in the German Bundesliga who finshed 13th - 25 caps


Zlatko Junuzović (MF) experienced player who plays for Werder Bremen who finished 8th in the German Bundesliga -52 caps

Julian Baumgartlinger (MF) plays for Bayern Leverkusen since last season 17 appearances for them - champions league experience – experienced international - 52 caps

Florian Kainz (MF) he is another who plays for Werder Bremen (signed last season) with 14 appearances for them - 2 caps


David Alaba their (DF/MF) Bayern Munich star man head and shoulders above the rest of the players -55 caps


Valentino Lazaro (MF) only 21 - attacking midfielder for Salzburg already (Must be an up and coming player) - 8 caps

Guido Burgstaller (FW) plays for Schalke in the German bundesliga (where they finished 10th) he scored 9 goals in 18 appearances for them – although he is 28 he only is barely in double figure caps for Austria
(played for Nurnburg in the German second division the season before signing for Schalke) - 11 caps

The whole starting team look just as bad/good as the Irish team on paper (as a whole excluding Alaba - who did not play to his usual levels)

Yet they still managed to look way better then the Irish team, for most of the game?

To be fair, I wouldn't call that level with us. Burgstaller had 9 goals in about 13 games in the Bundesliga and something like 13 in 16 beforehand his transfer if I recall. That's similar to Randolph who only broke into the West Ham team during the season but played really well when there. Likewise Robbie Brady spent half the season in the Championship before moving to Burnley. Similar to their own goalkeeper, Kevin Long only played 4 competitive games all season at Burnley. Then as well as Hoolahan there's Hendrick, Duffy, Christie, McGeady, Murphy who all spent the full season in the Championship. And of course nobody in the squad comes within a whisker of Alaba as mentioned.

I really like this team for how much they put in and how much they get out of themselves as a result, it's working very well for what we have and I can't fault them at all for it. But make no bones about it, it is a limited group.

Ferris_Bueller

Billy86 wrote: »

I really like this team for how much they put in and how much they get out of themselves as a result, it's working very well for what we have and I can't fault them at all for it. But make no bones about it, it is a limited group.

I would argue that it's our strongest international squad in a long time. Limited group as well, but if we had a fully fit squad IMO it's better than anything in recent memory. Our strongest starting XI will all be premier league regulars next season (bar maybe Randolph), when is the last time we could say that?

FixdePitchmark

Lads anyone else at the game think the getting up and down - be it , hot dogs, jacks (fair enough) - drink - crisps - coke - running in before 1/2 time is past a joke.

You are up and down out of your seat like a yo -yo.

Some of these people were leaving 10 mins in to get hot dogs. Seriously.

Billy86

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I would argue that it's our strongest international squad in a long time. Limited group as well, but if we had a fully fit squad IMO it's better than anything in recent memory. Our strongest starting XI will all be premier league regulars next season (bar maybe Randolph), when is the last time we could say that?

In terms of performance as an overall unit, organisation, getting the most out of themselves and even results I would agree but in terms of actual on-paper talent I'm 31 and this has to be the least of it any Irish team has had in my lifetime. I don't mean to sound like I'm slagging them off or anything at all in saying that, I think they've done themselves extremely proud for what's available.

johnnyryan89

Billy86 wrote: »

In terms of performance as an overall unit, organisation, getting the most out of themselves and even results I would agree but in terms of actual on-paper talent I'm 31 and this has to be the least of it any Irish team has had in my lifetime. I don't mean to sound like I'm slagging them off or anything at all in saying that, I think they've done themselves extremely proud for what's available.

And it's only going to get worse as time goes on and the money increases in England. The days of English clubs developing our talent for us is coming to an end.

FixdePitchmark

Billy86 wrote: »

In terms of performance as an overall unit, organisation, getting the most out of themselves and even results I would agree but in terms of actual on-paper talent I'm 31 and this has to be the least of it any Irish team has had in my lifetime. I don't mean to sound like I'm slagging them off or anything at all in saying that, I think they've done themselves extremely proud for what's available.

Could you not make an argument that the Euro 2012 squad was as weak - yes there were players who had played at a high level but were on their last legs at best. We scored 1 goal - conceded 9.

Then the squad in next qualification campaign was even worse. We were actually starting lads like Cox - Connor Salmon.

On the other hand this squad has decent options in goal.
Coleman
McCarthy
Brady
Hendrix
Long
Walters (aged)

Your only 31 - but , we have had fairly bad squad from end of McCarthy (IMO) - Trap had shockers of squads.

noodler

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Could you not make an argument that the Euro 2012 squad was as weak - yes there were players who had played at a high level but were on their last legs at best. We scored 1 goal - conceded 9.

Then the squad in next qualification campaign was even worse. We were actually starting lads like Cox - Connor Salmon.

On the other hand this squad has decent options in goal.
Coleman
McCarthy
Brady
Hendrix
Long
Walters (aged)

Your only 31 - but , we have had fairly bad squad from end of McCarthy (IMO) - Trap had shockers of squads.

Tough one.

Trap had the best of dunne and Keane for Ireland, a better O'Shea, some good duff years. Had a better McGeady too.

On the other hand he was late to the party with Coleman, Hoolahan and long but he can't say they weren't available.

Ferris_Bueller

Our midfield now is definitely the strongest we have had in a long time. Brady, McClean, Hendrick, Whelan, Arter, McCarthy, Hoolahan. We will never replace Robbie but Long & Walters are at least on par with Doyle or Quinn towards the end of his career. At the back is the only area we could be weaker now than we have been for the past 15 years but I would argue Coleman is the best right back we have had in that time and left back has been a weak link for a very long time.

R00ster

Do some people go for the match or the half time hot dog? There were people near me leaving after 35 minutes, and people returning after an hour. Special mention for the wánker who instead of waiting in the gangway for 10 more seconds, walked in by me just as a corner was being taken. :mad:

eagle eye

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I said the 11 players they fielded
You rightly pointed out Alaba but I'm stating that's only one player
That Austria team was still weak in comparison in it's entirety

Their whole defense would be starting ahead of the Irish lads that were out there.

FixdePitchmark

R00ster wrote: »

Do some people go for the match or the half time hot dog? There were people near me leaving after 35 minutes, and people returning after an hour. Special mention for the wánker who instead of waiting in the gangway for 10 more seconds, walked in by me just as a corner was being taken. :mad:

I don't like moaning - like a drink myself and if you have to go jax you have to go - but hot dogs - burgers , 10 mins in , hardly even cheering for the team. Then the same gang leaving with a good 12 minutes before 1/2 time.

Nice stadium - but going to see ball is only for 1/2 the people there.

Yes and they stand in walkway. in your way.

gormdubhgorm

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

And it's only going to get worse as time goes on and the money increases in England. The days of English clubs developing our talent for us is coming to an end.

It could be a blessing in disguise for Irish football in the long run.

Maybe Irish club football will gradually improve with players staying in Ireland longer instead of 'going across the water' at the first opportunity?

Or are young fellas going to look further afield like Scandinavia / Belgium / Holland?

gormdubhgorm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Our midfield now is definitely the strongest we have had in a long time. Brady, McClean, Hendrick, Whelan, Arter, McCarthy, Hoolahan. We will never replace Robbie but Long & Walters are at least on par with Doyle or Quinn towards the end of his career. At the back is the only area we could be weaker now than we have been for the past 15 years but I would argue Coleman is the best right back we have had in that time and left back has been a weak link for a very long time.

Ward has done alright in fairness to him, and did well to get back into the Burnley team.

Brady can play at left back but then loose him from the more attacking roles.

Personally I would like Daryl Horgan on the right of midfield, Mclean on the left, Brady left back.

Then just go 4-4-2 with Hendrick/Myler and whelan playing where they are supposed to.

The centre backs are very weak. It is pity there are not three decent ones - even one good one could carry the other two (shame Michael Keane jumped ship) then 3-5-2 would be obvious with Brady and Coleman as wing backs and Mclean supporting the striker.

I think Martin O'Neill is either working miracles or getting very lucky so far.

I can't fully make my mind up.

johnnyryan89

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It could be a blessing in disguise for Irish football in the long run.

Maybe Irish club football will gradually improve with players staying in Ireland longer instead of 'going across the water' at the first opportunity?

Or are young fellas going to look further afield like Scandinavia / Belgium / Holland?

A blessing in disguise would be John Delaney being replaced by something that actually cares about the future of Irish youth football and not just the senior team.

The new national 15s league and 13s league next year will help getting the best young lads playing together at a younger age but young kids will still be shipped off to England at a young age. Clubs like St Kevins will still send lads over in droves and loi clubs would like to hold onto the better players but it's hard to tell a kid at 16 not to sign for United, Liverpool or Chelsea without offering him incentives to remain at home.

I'd love to see young kids playing further afield instead of constantly going to England but it's hard enough for some kids to move to England at that age so couldn't see a 16 year old from county Galway moving to Scandinavia all of a sudden. The closest Ireland will get to young kids playing abroad is lads whose families have moved at a young age or kids born abroad to Irish parent(s).

FixdePitchmark

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Then the squad in next qualification campaign was even worse. We were actually starting lads like Cox - Connor Salmon.

On the other hand this squad has decent options in goal.
Coleman
McCarthy
Brady
Hendrix
Long
Walters (aged)

Your only 31 - but , we have had fairly bad squad from end of McCarthy (IMO) - Trap had shockers of squads.

Pretty much all the players you listed, bar Hendrick (and Brady might have been on the young side), were available to Trap. Along with Hoolahan. He just preferred types like Cox, Green and Sammon. Donkeys, far less likely to stray from his tactics...whatever they were by the end of his reign... Remember how long it took for McCarthy and Coleman to be accepted?