Ireland vs Austria, World Cup Qualifier, kick-off 5pm, RTE 2 & Sky Sports 1

R00ster

For some reason the the first tiebreaker is goal difference, not head to head. Bizarre, seeing as it was head to head at the euros. Pity for Ireland, a 0-0 or 1-1 against Serbia would put us ahead if we were level on points. No chance of Ireland finishing ahead of anyone on goal difference.

Wardling

Some poor performances on show during the match including the referee

galwaylad14

Second goal should have stood, if Duffy jumped like that for a header in our box it wouldn't be a penalty in a million years so it shouldn't be a free in their box either.

Also do some people actually think Walters fouled the Austrian for the equaliser?

If they do then all I can say is to stick to the day job!

galwaylad14

noodler wrote: »

Well, he was Norwich's player of the season according to Dunphy.

Probably has to play more than 30 minutes a game to get that accolade in fairness.

MON is hardly infallible, poor team selection and tactics put us on the back foot again today so note sure it's fair to just say "MON knows best" to stifle discussion.

Edit: and it seems he regularly plays full games for Norwich more often than not or at least 70.

How many SPL's and European cups have you won?

Nalz

galwaylad14 wrote: »

How many SPL's and European cups have you won?

Why?

Nalz

I agree that Christie, Hendrick, Duffy and Whelan (to a lesser extent) had some poor moments but I thought Arter looked clueless and disinterested most of the time.

galwaylad14

Nalz wrote: »

Why?

Just saying how o'neill has lots of them but you seem to know more about managing an international football team

noodler

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Just saying how o'neill has lots of them but you seem to know more about managing an international football team

Maybe the internet isn't for you?

If you want blind faith without scrutiny then try religion.

galwaylad14

noodler wrote: »

Maybe the internet isn't for you?

If you want blind faith without scrutiny then try religion.

In fairness it probably isn't.

I don't always agree with o'neill myself but at the end of the day the man was a top class player, has been successful at every club he's managed and he gets to watch the lads in training so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows more than we do.

gormdubhgorm

noodler wrote: »

Well, he was Norwich's player of the season according to Dunphy.

Probably has to play more than 30 minutes a game to get that accolade in fairness.

MON is hardly infallible, poor team selection and tactics put us on the back foot again today so note sure it's fair to just say "MON knows best" to stifle discussion.

Edit: and it seems he regularly plays full games for Norwich more often than not or at least 70.

Yes but is a sad indictment on Irish football. That thier only professional football player who is able to pass a ball to another professional football player, and be ready to receive it again is 35 year old from Norwich.

If you type in Wes Hoolahan's name on you tube, you will get a sense of the desperation.
There are many clips titled 'Wes Hoolahan - the Irish Messi' 'Wes Hoolahan the Irish Maradonna' :eek:

It sums up the hype about him in the minds of Irish supporters.

I think the main difference between Hoolahan and the other players Ireland have is confidence.

I think that the others do not have any faith in themselves to try and pass the ball to thier team mates with any regularity. For some unexplained reason.

Hoolahan is a player who plays in the championship and was not even a regular for Norwich at one stage. A player who also admitted he was blowing smoke after he played two games in a row for Ireland in the Euros

But a player who was named as Norwich's player of the year.

That sounds great but he is a 35 year old who plays in England's second tier.

A team who finished 8th in the championship.

Yet McLean, Hendrick, Whelan, Arthur and Brady all play in the premier league.

But by magic they put on the Irish jersey, most of them try and burst the clouds with the football time and time again.

Not a direct ball with some plan just a plain hit and hope.

Randolph seems to like playing at the Aviva. Lately, the only thing is, he seems to think he is playing out-half for the Irish Rugby team.

How many times did Randolph kick a ball to touch expecting a line out?

I think Martin O'Neill expects the Irish players he puts out, to pass, the ball to thier teammates.

The Irish players have to take some of the blame. However, some posters seem to parrot what the 'experts' on the panel say and champion the 'cult of wes'

Rather then asking the more pertinent question.

What are the other Irish players doing besides 'The Irish Messi'?

That was an awful lot of muck to watch yesterday. No way would anyone have watched it if they were neutral.

It is high time that people stopped focusing on one aging player who plays in England's second tier (who can barely last 70 minutes) and look at the other players, and ask how pro footballers cannot pass the ball with any degree of regularity.

They just sh*te themselves and lamp it.

pjohnson

R00ster wrote: »

Arter was very disappointing. Would have expected him to be the playmaker, yet he only seemed to want to pass it sideways or backwards. There was one point in the 2nd when we were still losing when Whelan ran across to receive a throw-in short, and Arter was hiding on the far side of the pitch. :mad:

Whelan gets a lot of stick, but he did his job well IMO. He won the ball back and didn't waste many passes. The same as Baumgartlinger, except his midfield partners were willing/able to drive on with the ball.

As much as people love to get the boot in he has played 30+ matches the last 4 years in the Premier League. He does his job well.

noodler

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes but is a sad indictment on Irish football. That thier only professional football player who is able to pass a ball to another professional football player, and be ready to receive it again is 35 year old from Norwich.

If you type in Wes Hoolahan's name on you tube, you will get a sense of the desperation.
There are many clips titled 'Wes Hoolahan - the Irish Messi' 'Wes Hoolahan the Irish Maradonna' :eek:

It sums up the hype about him in the minds of Irish supporters.

I think the main difference between Hoolahan and the other players Ireland have is confidence.

I think that the others do not have any faith in themselves to try and pass the ball to thier team mates with any regularity. For some unexplained reason.

Hoolahan is a player who plays in the championship and was not even a regular for Norwich at one stage. A player who also admitted he was blowing smoke after he played two games in a row for Ireland in the Euros

But a player who was named as Norwich's player of the year.

That sounds great but he is a 35 year old who plays in England's second tier.

A team who finished 8th in the championship.

Yet McLean, Hendrick, Whelan, Arthur and Brady all play in the premier league.

But by magic they put on the Irish jersey, most of them try and burst the clouds with the football time and time again.

Not a direct ball with some plan just a plain hit and hope.

Randolph seems to like playing at the Aviva. Lately, the only thing is, he seems to think he is playing out-half for the Irish Rugby team.

How many times did Randolph kick a ball to touch expecting a line out?

I think Martin O'Neill expects the Irish players he puts out, to pass, the ball to thier teammates.

The Irish players have to take some of the blame. However, some posters seem to parrot what the 'experts' on the panel say and champion the 'cult of wes'

Rather then asking the more pertinent question.

What are the other Irish players doing besides 'The Irish Messi'?

That was an awful lot of muck to watch yesterday. No way would anyone have watched it if they were neutral.

It is high time that people stopped focusing on one aging player who plays in England's second tier (who can barely last 70 minutes) and look at the other players, and ask how pro footballers cannot pass the ball with any degree of regularity.

They just sh*te themselves and lamp it.

It might have been fair to label it hype before he got regularly included but just look at what he has done in the short time since he has been starting.


Goal versus Sweden in euros, assist for Robbie Brady vs Italy in euros, outstanding through ball assist for McClean versus Austria.

I think the end product, such as it is, negates him being a myth or hype.

Billy86

I personally don't mind Hoolahan being on the bench - on the caveat that he is essentially guaranteed to come on. The truth of it is that he is 35, full games are going to be a real challenge for him to get through but coming on for 30-45 minutes against more worn down opposition can really get the best out of him, almost a little like Ryan Giggs' last few years at Man Utd.

That said, we really should not be setting out to play as we did yesterday in a home game under those circumstances against a weakened Austrian team. I would also be very strongly on the side of thinking the second goal being disallowed was a farce.

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

I personally don't mind Hoolahan being on the bench - on the caveat that he is essentially guaranteed to come on. The truth of it is that he is 35, full games are going to be a real challenge for him to get through but coming on for 30-45 minutes against more worn down opposition can really get the best out of him, almost a little like Ryan Giggs' last few years at Man Utd.

Theres very little evidence of this based on his season with Norwich. Looked it up yesterday.

Played full games quite often or 70mins at least.

Particularly given the fact the Austria came about three /four weeks after the championship season with Norwich finished.

Corholio

Criticism on Arter is harsh imo. He's the least type of player to 'hide', if anything he's been criticised for getting too stuck in in matches. There was zero movement ahead of him all day yesterday, and always mostly is playing conservatively at home like that. Under O'Neill there's always lot of movement across midfield when we don't have the ball but when attacking it's really poor, almost a fear there. Walters up front didn't help for sure, despite his goal. Hendrick is someone who I've always thought should get more criticism than he does.

Mantis Toboggan

Any reason why we only watered the half that Austria were attacking into in both halves, I would have thought it should be the other way around?

RoryMac

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Any reason why we only watered the half that Austria were attacking into in both halves, I would have thought it should be the other way around?

The half we were attacking into in the 2nd half was definitely watered at half time. Sprinklers came on that side as soon as the players left the pitch at HT. Then they went off & the other half was watered. Maybe they always need one half free for players warming up etc?

RoryMac

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes but is a sad indictment on Irish football. That thier only professional football player who is able to pass a ball to another professional football player, and be ready to receive it again is 35 year old from Norwich.

If you type in Wes Hoolahan's name on you tube, you will get a sense of the desperation.
There are many clips titled 'Wes Hoolahan - the Irish Messi' 'Wes Hoolahan the Irish Maradonna' :eek:

It sums up the hype about him in the minds of Irish supporters.

I think the main difference between Hoolahan and the other players Ireland have is confidence.

I think that the others do not have any faith in themselves to try and pass the ball to thier team mates with any regularity. For some unexplained reason.

Hoolahan is a player who plays in the championship and was not even a regular for Norwich at one stage. A player who also admitted he was blowing smoke after he played two games in a row for Ireland in the Euros

But a player who was named as Norwich's player of the year.

That sounds great but he is a 35 year old who plays in England's second tier.

A team who finished 8th in the championship.

Yet McLean, Hendrick, Whelan, Arthur and Brady all play in the premier league.

But by magic they put on the Irish jersey, most of them try and burst the clouds with the football time and time again.

Not a direct ball with some plan just a plain hit and hope.

Randolph seems to like playing at the Aviva. Lately, the only thing is, he seems to think he is playing out-half for the Irish Rugby team.

How many times did Randolph kick a ball to touch expecting a line out?

I think Martin O'Neill expects the Irish players he puts out, to pass, the ball to thier teammates.

The Irish players have to take some of the blame. However, some posters seem to parrot what the 'experts' on the panel say and champion the 'cult of wes'

Rather then asking the more pertinent question.

What are the other Irish players doing besides 'The Irish Messi'?

That was an awful lot of muck to watch yesterday. No way would anyone have watched it if they were neutral.

It is high time that people stopped focusing on one aging player who plays in England's second tier (who can barely last 70 minutes) and look at the other players, and ask how pro footballers cannot pass the ball with any degree of regularity.

They just sh*te themselves and lamp it.

See this I think is the big point people are missing with Hoolahan, for me it's not his ability on the ball that makes him key to our side, its that he wants the ball and gives other players options that makes him so important.

It's not that "they just sh*te themselves and lamp it", its that for some players they simply don't have an option to pass to cause the other players will happily stand beside the opposition 'marking' them.

Idbatterim

whenver oneill goes, after oneill and trapp, I would like someone progressive, lets end this, what ifs once and for all. When are coleman and long back?

keeponhurling

Kevin Keegan might be available after MON goes, Roberto Martinez could be another option

The_Kew_Tour

Atmosphere was crap, we were crap and it's same old stuff again.

We deserved to get beat, but in end we should have won.

Hendrick was worst player on the pitch at least likes of Whelan were trying.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Atmosphere was crap, we were crap and it's same old stuff again.

We deserved to get beat, but in end we should have won.

Hendrick was worst player on the pitch at least likes of Whelan were trying.

Which end were you in? Behind the goals wasn't too bad but pitch-side seating seemed to be no noise at all

The_Kew_Tour

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Which end were you in? Behind the goals wasn't too bad but pitch-side seating seemed to be no noise at all

Block 504 upper practically dead centre of pitch.

The place was roving once we scored but awful up to that.

That Motherwell Viking Iceland clap thing is doing my nut too:pac:

pjohnson

Idbatterim wrote: »

whenver oneill goes, after oneill and trapp, I would like someone progressive, lets end this, what ifs once and for all. When are coleman and long back?

Progressive like Guardiola?

Collie D

Idbatterim wrote: »

whenver oneill goes, after oneill and trapp, I would like someone progressive, lets end this, what ifs once and for all. When are coleman and long back?

It's been a while since we raided the north

Mantis Toboggan

I'd fancy Bielsa after Martin, get us playing sexy football and take us to the top.

Arghus

God, could you imagine. It'd be a mad campaign.

RoryMac

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Block 504 upper practically dead centre of pitch.

The place was roving once we scored but awful up to that.

That Motherwell Viking Iceland clap thing is doing my nut too:pac:

I'm lucky that my seats are down near the singing section so always a bit of atmosphere.

Unfortunately they're the ones starting the Viking crap(not a typo) so has it's downsides too

gormdubhgorm

Idbatterim wrote: »

whenver oneill goes, after oneill and trapp, I would like someone progressive, lets end this, what ifs once and for all. When are coleman and long back?

Don't know when those two lads will be back. I would say long should be back for the Georgia game anyway if it was a minor metatarsal fracture, normally 6-8 weeks in a cast/splint

Not sure about Coleman.


As for being progressive. I don't think Trap and O'Neill set out to get the players to play constant hoof ball with no movement to show for the ball.

I think the players just happen to vary from average to sh*te.

O'Neill played direct football with Leicester and Celtic.

But I cannot remember either team looking as disjointed as the Irish team looked v Austria.

The manager can be changed.

But what will a new manager have to work with?

There seems to be no exciting young blood appearing on the horizon at all.

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

Theres very little evidence of this based on his season with Norwich. Looked it up yesterday.

Played full games quite often or 70mins at least.

Particularly given the fact the Austria came about three /four weeks after the championship season with Norwich finished.

I'd consider only playing the full 90 in 2/3rd of his games for Norwich (and only playing in 2/3rds of their league games at that) at Championship level pretty strong evidence for it to be honest.

Against a team we're expected to beat who are likely to park the bus somewhat there's good sense in starting him, but personally I prefer his effectiveness off the bench at his age against the likes of Austria, Serbia and Wales (though a fair point is that that Austria side were weakened, so might in that instance have been a better call to start him).

fullstop

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Atmosphere was crap, we were crap and it's same old stuff again.

We deserved to get beat, but in end we should have won.

Hendrick was worst player on the pitch at least likes of Whelan were trying.

The atmosphere was crap because Ireland basically let Austria have the ball for the first 20 minutes. Before kickoff it looked like it would be a great atmosphere, of they'd got stuck in it would have been.

The_Kew_Tour

fullstop wrote: »

The atmosphere was crap because Ireland basically let Austria have the ball for the first 20 minutes. Before kickoff it looked like it would be a great atmosphere, of they'd got stuck in it would have been.

Even before game it was nothing like games against Scotland in June 2015.(similar time)

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

I'd consider only playing the full 90 in 2/3rd of his games for Norwich (and only playing in 2/3rds of their league games at that) at Championship level pretty strong evidence for it to be honest.
).

What planet are you on???

46 odd championship games Norwich had.

So he played 90 mins in 30 games, 70mins in another 8 and smaller appearances in the remainder?

How on earth is that "evidence" he can't start a game for Ireland FOUR WEEKS after the championship ended?

Mental logic.

sonic85

I was in block 318 and atmosphere wise it was pi$$ poor. Most people just didn't seem to want to make noise. Just sitting there. Then you had people leaving from around the 35 minute mark and not landing back till after the 50. One group of lads rocked up in the 21st minute - I mean what's the point really?

Atmosphere did improve a bit in the second half though to be fair but personally I'd prefer to be in a secton that's a bit more raucous. Might try get tickets for the singing section next time.

I must be in the minority but I quite like the thunder clap! The Austrians were brilliant yesterday too - were they doing the poznan at some stage?

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

What planet are you on???

46 odd championship games Norwich had.

So he played 90 mins in 30 games, 70mins in another 8 and smaller appearances in the remainder?

How on earth is that "evidence" he can't start a game for Ireland FOUR WEEKS after the championship ended?

Mental logic.

No... he played 33 of those 46 games (30 starts, 3 subs)... about 2/3rds of them. In those 30 starts, he played 90 minutes in 19 of them, about 2/3 of the time. I have no idea where you got him playing thirty 90 minute games for Norwich this season from? You seem to have misread my post which said he only played in 2/3rds of their league games and not been aware of his playing numbers yourself.

http://www.espnfc.com/player/16696/wes-hoolahan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Hoolahan#Career_statistics

The_Kew_Tour

sonic85 wrote: »

I was in block 318 and atmosphere wise it was pi$$ poor. Most people just didn't seem to want to make noise. Just sitting there. Then you had people leaving from around the 35 minute mark and not landing back till after the 50. One group of lads rocked up in the 21st minute - I mean what's the point really?

Atmosphere did improve a bit in the second half though to be fair but personally I'd prefer to be in a secton that's a bit more raucous. Might try get tickets for the singing section next time.

I must be in the minority but I quite like the thunder clap! The Austrians were brilliant yesterday too - were they doing the poznan at some stage?

When we scored I remember a chap few rows in front of me started shouting "let's get a winner come on" and urging the team on, and all he was getting was giggles and some thinking man was bonkers. He wasn't even that loud our wound up just supporting the team.

I even had to stop giving odd encouraging roar myself in case I got a look.

Behind the goal is different and maybe thats where I should be

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

No... he played 33 of those 46 games (30 starts, 3 subs)... about 2/3rds of them. In those 30 starts, he played 90 minutes in 19 of them, about 2/3 of the time. I have no idea where you got him playing thirty 90 minute games for Norwich this season from? You seem to have misread my post which said he only played in 2/3rds of their league games and not been aware of his playing numbers yourself.

http://www.espnfc.com/player/16696/wes-hoolahan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Hoolahan#Career_statistics

Of the 33 league games he was available for... He played 90 minutes in 30 of them...

Sorry what was your point again? How on earth is that evidence he wasn't able to start for Ireland 4 weeks after the Championship ended?

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

Of the 33 league games he was available for... He played 90 minutes in 30 of them...

Sorry what was your point again? How on earth is that evidence he wasn't able to start for Ireland 4 weeks after the Championship ended?

It's clear you jumped to a conclusion without having read my post correctly and not knowing what you were talking about (if this is untrue, show me the 30 games he played for 90 minutes in).

So why did he only play 90 minutes on 19 occasions throughout the year? Because you're wrong again claiming he was only available for 33 games (you could at least click the link I've given you) - he was in the match day squad for 40 yet played the full 90 in less than half of those.

Hoolahan only playing the full 90 minutes in half his games in the Championship is because he is 35 years of age and tires out during games, as players of that age tend to.

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

It's clear you jumped to a conclusion without having read my post correctly and not knowing what you were talking about (if this is untrue, show me the 30 games he played for 90 minutes in).

So why did he only play 90 minutes on 19 occasions throughout the year? Because you're wrong again claiming he was only available for 33 games (you could at least click the link I've given you) - he was in the match day squad for 40 yet played the full 90 in less than half of those.

Hoolahan only playing the full 90 minutes in half his games in the Championship is because he is 35 years of age and tires out during games, as players of that age tend to.

So, again, and please stop ignoring your initial claim, how does starting 30 games in the Championship somehow lead you to think he couldn't start for Ireland?

And again, especially considering the last round of championship games was almost a month ago.

Just admit you hadn't a fcuking clue how he was being used at Norwich and now you are having a hard time explaining how 30 starts means he can't start for Ireland at his age.

NIMAN

All this discussion about Wes and whether he can play for 90mins or not.

Lads, you are all wasting your time.

Thats not how MON is thinking. He is a very negative/conservative manager. He prefers a Whelan to a Hoolahan, someone who will graft rather than create. Ability doesn't come into O'Neills head at all in his decision making.

The_Kew_Tour

Wes did more tracking back then any player when he came on.

MON will not change though, too afraid to go for "risk" in his head

noodler

That's fair enough as a tactical decision, even if many disagree.

I just think the argument he can't play for an hour because of his age hasn't been borne out with Norwich or his performances for Ireland in the last year.

Billy86

noodler wrote: »

So, again, and please stop ignoring your initial claim, how does starting 30 games in the Championship somehow lead you to think he couldn't start for Ireland?

And again, especially considering the last round of championship games was almost a month ago.

Because, as I have repeatedly said and as you seem to be having severe difficulty understanding, he couldn't see out even 2/3rds of those games, at Championship level. Against good international sides like Austria he is going to be tested even further and would likely wear down even faster. It's not the same as playing against a team looking to hold us to a draw where we'll more easily dictate the tempo, this is very simple stuff. MON clearly thinks the time he can play would be more effective later in the game when the opposition have tired down a little, than using him earlier when the opposition are at their freshest.

Just admit you hadn't a fcuking clue how he was being used at Norwich and now you are having a hard time explaining how 30 starts means he can't start for Ireland at his age.

:pac:

Yeah, good luck with that after I've had to correct you repeatedly on how Norwich have used him. Are you not going to show me those 30 times he played the full 90 minutes you were claiming earlier (as well as the other 8+ where he played 70 minutes), or how he was only available for 33 games? How does a player start 38 games despite only being available for 33 while actually being in the team for 40 by the way? You were spoofing and got caught out on it, just accept it and quit digging deeper.

tbf Billy I'd argue that most of the Championship level teams were better than the 11 players Austria fielded last Sunday
I'd be of the opinion that he should have started and we would of at least got 50 good minutes of of him

noodler

Billy86 wrote: »

Because, as I have repeatedly said and as you seem to be having severe difficulty understanding, he couldn't see out even 2/3rds of those games, at Championship level. Against good international sides like Austria he is going to be tested even further and would likely wear down even faster. It's not the same as playing against a team looking to hold us to a draw where we'll more easily dictate the tempo, this is very simple stuff. MON clearly thinks the time he can play would be more effective later in the game when the opposition have tired down a little, than using him earlier when the opposition are at their freshest.

Bolloxology of the highest order.

Did he not start against Austria in November? Against Italy, against Sweden?

Would he not have been "tested further" at these games?

:pac:

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, good luck with that after I've had to correct you repeatedly on how Norwich have used him. Are you not going to show me those 30 times he played the full 90 minutes you were claiming earlier (as well as the other 8+ where he played 70 minutes), or how he was only available for 33 games? How does a player start 38 games despite only being available for 33 while actually being in the team for 40 by the way? You were spoofing and got caught out on it, just accept it and quit digging deeper.

I took you at your word in your posts - they were not very clear but I apologise if I misinterpreted the way you illustrated his stats.

Its irrelevant though, starting 30 games for Norwich, along with the numerous other Irish games he has started in the last year proves he can start for Ireland.

Particularly given he has had a FOUR WEEK break since the Championship ended.

gormdubhgorm

I suppose if Christy Ring could hurl for Cork into his forties

And Teddy Sheringham and Gordon Strachan could play outfield in top level football in thier forties.

Wes Hoolahan could have another 10 years in him?

The future of Irish football looks bright :rolleyes:

Cervantes2

M!Ck^ wrote: »

tbf Billy I'd argue that most of the Championship level teams were better than the 11 players Austria fielded last Sunday
I'd be of the opinion that he should have started and we would of at least got 50 good minutes of of him

Better than Alaba. I don't think so.

Cervantes2

Cervantes2 wrote: »

Better than Alaba. I don't think so.

One player

Cervantes2

M!Ck^ wrote: »

One player

A World class player. Ireland have no one like him.

Cervantes2

Cervantes2 wrote: »

A World class player. Ireland have no one like him.

I said the 11 players they fielded
You rightly pointed out Alaba but I'm stating that's only one player
That Austria team was still weak in comparison in it's entirety