Ned Flanagan

Chumpski

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

Not sure how helpful or constructive that comment is. It was an accident at end of the day. Avoidable? Yes, ive already outlined the many reasons for it happening. Did anybody who ended up on the tarmac or in the hospital with road rash or worse want to be there? Nope.

07Lapierre

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

Nice! :mad:

happyhappy

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

All ambulances except the order of Malta one which was following the race and which couldn't cope were HSE and not paid for by your €15 euro taxuser but by the taxpayer so don't worry.

Your €15 paid for the ambulance behind your race which would give you the same treatment if you had hit the deck.

dragratchet

happyhappy wrote: »

All ambulances except the order of Malta one which was following the race and which couldn't cope were HSE and not paid for by your €15 euro taxuser but by the taxpayer so don't worry.

Your €15 paid for the ambulance behind your race which would give you the same treatment if you had hit the deck.

and the sandwiches... did you get any of the sandwiches?

happyhappy

dragratchet wrote: »

and the sandwiches... did you get any of the sandwiches?

Ha, class! Nope didn't get sambos!

Taxuser1

my forked tongue won't come back in from the hole in my cheek :-)

Just realised the race was the Paddy Flanagan !

JK.BMC

Rode the A3 race - I know these roads well and know the organisers for years.
A3 race was fine - hard racing throughout and generally a well contested affair. Yes there was a crash 100m from the end but I dare say that was nobody's fault but the lads themselves, and I do hope they are all ok. No point talking about wind/rain/roads/cars etc etc ad nauseum if competitive riders just get it slightly wrong in the heat of the moment. Crashes happen. Yes there was driving hailstones and a strong headwind on a slight uphill finish - but all the more reason to keep calm and delay the kick as late as possible. Fairly basic race tactic - and keep out of it, as many riders did - if it didn't suit, which is perfectly good. So a good race in my opinion in A3.

However the post-mortems after these A4 bunch crashes all bring us back to the same point - there is a gang of dangerous/nervous/aggressive riders inhabiting the A4 race groups who ultimately are the cause of the trouble. End of. Seriously. You can make all the excuses in the world - and I hear them in my club and about the place but this all comes down to the behaviour of riders.

It is actually extraordinary the amount of roaring and shouting, fist waving and general hot-headed dicking around that I encounter with the A4s, in places like the Mondello Series, Open handicaps and even in club league races. And that isn't condescension - it's what I see and hear, regularly.
I know a good deal of it is fear and self-preservation but I just wish these guys would have their mid-life crisis in a more dignified and safer way.
Simple example: coming to a junction or sharp bend, I always watch my line and especially the apex/exit from said bend. I have had numerous A4s then start roaring "ah don't be taking me on me inside, jayzus lads!!!" etc when in fact its actually good cornering and holding the racing line at speed.
I got elbowed off my leadout yesterday with 800m to go - but the last thing I would do is roar abuse at the same guy; You just have to suck it up, adjust and keep calm. If you can't get out, then you won't. Nacer Bouhanni does not ride in A4.
This has to be practiced - I suspect very very few A4s actually do this as there is no mandatory safety training/skills course for road racing. But that's another thread in itself

Harrybelafonte

Great post. Mondello is a perfect example of the laziness of A4s and their inability to corner. Many A4s I should say. Usually the loud ones.

Derrydingle

dahat wrote:

Last race I did was 52km and I felt another lap would have made it a good test. I won't be doing any races over short distances as a rule of thumb now, far too risky even though it would suit me.

Most a4 races are around the 50 to 60km only way to get the longer races is to get the points to move up to a3 or I think I maybe wrong if your over the age of 40 you can self upgrade yourself to a3

Stevieg2009

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Great post. Mondello is a perfect example of the laziness of A4s and their inability to corner. Many A4s I should say. Usually the loud ones.

Absolutely spot on loud lads shouting at others to do the work because there only there to hang on to wheels all night god forbid they would ever stick there noses in the wind just once might as well just start the A4 and A3 race together because most lads just want to wait anyway

Harrybelafonte

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Absolutely spot on loud lads shouting at others to do the work because there only there to hang on to wheels all night god forbid they would ever stick there noses in the wind just once might as well just start the A4 and A3 race together because most lads just want to wait anyway

Of all the races, Mondello is my favourite. I was dying to do it this year. I missed the start, was still putting gloves on as I chased down bunch, caught bunch and straight to front to find the same ten or so lads gunning it on the front for the whole race. The rest just sit in. That day we could have stayed away for the whole race if we'd all worked together. If the usual suspects can keep the bunch away for over 40 minutes, then a proper train would keep the A4s away for the day.

Anyway, wrong race to be ranting about. But it reminds me of teh day I was told to slow down by someone in A4 at Mondello a few years ago. Seriously, why bother.

Chumpski

JK.BMC wrote: »

However the post-mortems after these A4 bunch crashes all bring us back to the same point - there is a gang of dangerous/nervous/aggressive riders inhabiting the A4 race groups who ultimately are the cause of the trouble. End of. Seriously. You can make all the excuses in the world - and I hear them in my club and about the place but this all comes down to the behaviour of riders.

It is actually extraordinary the amount of roaring and shouting, fist waving and general hot-headed dicking around that I encounter with the A4s, in places like the Mondello Series, Open handicaps and even in club league races. And that isn't condescension - it's what I see and hear, regularly.
I know a good deal of it is fear and self-preservation but I just wish these guys would have their mid-life crisis in a more dignified and safer way.
Simple example: coming to a junction or sharp bend, I always watch my line and especially the apex/exit from said bend. I have had numerous A4s then start roaring "ah don't be taking me on me inside, jayzus lads!!!" etc when in fact its actually good cornering and holding the racing line at speed.
I got elbowed off my leadout yesterday with 800m to go - but the last thing I would do is roar abuse at the same guy; You just have to suck it up, adjust and keep calm. If you can't get out, then you won't. Nacer Bouhanni does not ride in A4.
This has to be practiced - I suspect very very few A4s actually do this as there is no mandatory safety training/skills course for road racing. But that's another thread in itself

No argument from me. I did hear a bunch of idiots shouting at times. Shut up and do your race. Let your legs talk, if they can.

Ride safe and dont be an idiot, nobody wants to end up on the tarmac. At best, it will cost all involved money and at worst, health and a trip to the hospital.

Use the right hand side of the road to move up the bunch, only when safe to do so. Dont stay out there and block up the road for other guys who want to move up.

Lets just mention one thing here though. There were plenty of examples of good well behaved and safe A4s in the bunch yesterday. It was a small number of idiots with little regard for well being of others.

Harrybelafonte

Time for the clubs to take responsibility? Not organisers, but those whose members have no concept of racing "etiquette"?

happyhappy

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Time for the clubs to take responsibility? Not organisers, but those whose members have no concept of racing "etiquette"?

Yes

Chumpski

Clubs, yeah. Anybody who goes racing needs to understand basic racing etiquette as you say by becoming experienced in group riding and club racing with smaller numbers involved first.

Individuals, also yeah. Use common sense on the road. Dont take silly chances for a possible minor placing. If you dont know how to bunch sprint, dont try it. You need to be fast and safely aggressive to be good at it. If you have trouble getting out of the bunch into the break, you probably are not fit enough to try it.

Maybe Cycling Ireland too? Capping entries to certain races based on route. Im not sure if that would work. I fully appreciate organizers need to cover costs involved.

buffalo

Chumpski wrote: »

Use the right hand side of the road to move up the bunch, only when safe to do so. Dont stay out there and block up the road for other guys who want to move up.

It's much more efficient to move up the bunch in the bunch. And it's up to the riders behind to find a way to move up, not for anyone in front to move over.

Gekko1

I was in a A4 race up North yesterday. Quite a safe race until the last mile or so of the last lap when a dozen or so riders started white lining on dangerous corners & crests of hills just to get up to the front for a sprint. Do some riders not be aware that the roads are still open to traffic? I was pretty bemused at the lack of moto marshalls who usually do a good job of warning oncoming traffic and in one race told riders that were white lining to move back in. I'm all for riders moving up on the outside but when it is safe to do so but doing it on blind bends & crests of hills is not to be place. Puts us all in danger. I was at boxed in yesterday, had no chance of moving up, so I didn't but witnessed absolute carnage in front of me. Two crashes within 500m of each other.
One complete eejit (not in club colours) was about 5 feet from running into a black Nissan Quasqai, another female driver had to swerve into a ditch to avoid another rider causing damage to her car. Wtf is it all about guys??
This was the second race in a row I have been at where there has been no race briefings from the organisers, not good enough imo. Also, would love to know from CI how many riders have been DQ'd for dangerous riding so far this season!!
I would love to move up the Categories but I ain't putting my life on the line for it

oflahero

I don't know what previous commenters' problem was with the support car passing the bunch. Has a race car never passed you before? They had to jump a couple of groups because of the perennial loons living in the right hand ditch all day.

As regards moving up. There's a constant flow pushing back down the bunch in A4 - the crazies on the right try to move up, won't ride through, then a car comes and the bunch is emotionally blackmailed to let them in. I was stuck just behind halfway all race, mainly because I am rubbish at working through the bunch. As buffalo says, this is the key skill to have.

happyhappy

oflahero wrote: »

I don't know what previous commenters' problem was with the support car passing the bunch. Has a race car never passed you before? They had to jump a couple of groups because of the perennial loons living in the right hand ditch all day.

As regards moving up. There's a constant flow pushing back down the bunch in A4 - the crazies on the right try to move up, won't ride through, then a car comes and the bunch is emotionally blackmailed to let them in. I was stuck just behind halfway all race, mainly because I am rubbish at working through the bunch. As buffalo says, this is the key skill to have.

The race car didn't pass the bunch, it got half way up and was faced with oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road and 'emotionally blackmailed' the bunch into letting him in the centre of them.

there was no need for the car to move anywhere to jump any groups in the way the driver did. I'm amazed that you think it's ok for a car to do the very action you have a issue with cyclists doing.

oflahero

happyhappy wrote: »

there was no need for the car to move anywhere to jump any groups in the way the driver did. I'm amazed that you think it's ok for a car to do the very action you have a issue with cyclists doing.

A car can pass in a few seconds if riders are where they're supposed to be. It's the riders' fault for not getting out of the way promptly. If a race car needs to pass, it's for a reason.

happyhappy

oflahero wrote: »

A car can pass in a few seconds if riders are where they're supposed to be. It's the riders' fault for not getting out of the way promptly. If a race car needs to pass, it's for a reason.

A car can pass a bunch of 80 riders who are exactly where they are supposed to be, with the car on the wrong side of the road into on coming traffic in a place that isn't safe to do so?

Out of interest did you see this or are you speaking hypothetically

oflahero

happyhappy wrote: »

A car can pass a bunch of 80 riders who are exactly where they are supposed to be, with the car on the wrong side of the road into on coming traffic in a place that isn't safe to do so?

Out of interest did you see this or are you speaking hypothetically

See it? I hung onto his wing mirror for a quick few seconds' tow!

It was on the straight just after the southwestern corner. The stretch of road on the course with the longest visibility ahead IMHO.

JK.BMC

Gekko1 wrote: »

I was in a A4 race up North yesterday. Quite a safe race until the last mile or so of the last lap when a dozen or so riders started white lining on dangerous corners & crests of hills just to get up to the front for a sprint. Do some riders not be aware that the roads are still open to traffic? I was pretty bemused at the lack of moto marshalls who usually do a good job of warning oncoming traffic and in one race told riders that were white lining to move back in. I'm all for riders moving up on the outside but when it is safe to do so but doing it on blind bends & crests of hills is not to be place. Puts us all in danger. I was at boxed in yesterday, had no chance of moving up, so I didn't but witnessed absolute carnage in front of me. Two crashes within 500m of each other.
One complete eejit (not in club colours) was about 5 feet from running into a black Nissan Quasqai, another female driver had to swerve into a ditch to avoid another rider causing damage to her car. Wtf is it all about guys??
This was the second race in a row I have been at where there has been no race briefings from the organisers, not good enough imo. Also, would love to know from CI how many riders have been DQ'd for dangerous riding so far this season!!
I would love to move up the Categories but I ain't putting my life on the line for it

That's an interesting story- the northern races I've done tend to be more strict in applying rules and fields tend to be smaller, hence better racing generally. The point about moving through the bunch instead of having to go outside it every time is quite valid- in other words if you can't comfortably move through the bunch when the race is on, then trying to sprint through it at the finish is probably beyond you. I'm all on for tossing lads out of races- bit you need a strong consensus from comms and race organisers

happyhappy

oflahero wrote: »

See it? I hung onto his wing mirror for a quick few seconds' tow!

.

I saw you doing this actually.

The driver of the car then started beeping at you to stop. Which made matters worse!

I don't think you are going to see how dangerous the whole thing was so I won't argue with you about it and hopefully next week we'll both be in points!

JK.BMC

oflahero wrote: »

I don't know what previous commenters' problem was with the support car passing the bunch. Has a race car never passed you before? They had to jump a couple of groups because of the perennial loons living in the right hand ditch all day.

As regards moving up. There's a constant flow pushing back down the bunch in A4 - the crazies on the right try to move up, won't ride through, then a car comes and the bunch is emotionally blackmailed to let them in. I was stuck just behind halfway all race, mainly because I am rubbish at working through the bunch. As buffalo says, this is the key skill to have.

Didn't see this but I can imagine the scenario- such cars by necessity need to pass the bunch on occasion, but again it's this idiotic and dangerous ''who da fxxx are you to be blowin' yer horn at me" (fist waving in the air) type of A4 rider causing the trouble.

From trying to get lads to improve at club level, I notice that lots of men and women who step into racing really do want to ride safely and do want to be safely competitive. Its good for club morale when people get into the points/prizes etc. But the small number who won't listen, won't follow age old traditions/skills and ride like lunatics are there too. No talking to them- hence they need to be identified and tossed out of races if they cant/won't comply.

Gekko1

JK.BMC wrote: »

Gekko1 wrote: »

I was in a A4 race up North yesterday. Quite a safe race until the last mile or so of the last lap when a dozen or so riders started white lining on dangerous corners & crests of hills just to get up to the front for a sprint. Do some riders not be aware that the roads are still open to traffic? I was pretty bemused at the lack of moto marshalls who usually do a good job of warning oncoming traffic and in one race told riders that were white lining to move back in. I'm all for riders moving up on the outside but when it is safe to do so but doing it on blind bends & crests of hills is not to be place. Puts us all in danger. I was at boxed in yesterday, had no chance of moving up, so I didn't but witnessed absolute carnage in front of me. Two crashes within 500m of each other.
One complete eejit (not in club colours) was about 5 feet from running into a black Nissan Quasqai, another female driver had to swerve into a ditch to avoid another rider causing damage to her car. Wtf is it all about guys??
This was the second race in a row I have been at where there has been no race briefings from the organisers, not good enough imo. Also, would love to know from CI how many riders have been DQ'd for dangerous riding so far this season!!
I would love to move up the Categories but I ain't putting my life on the line for it

That's an interesting story- the northern races I've done tend to be more strict in applying rules and fields tend to be smaller, hence better racing generally. The point about moving through the bunch instead of having to go outside it every time is quite valid- in other words if you can't comfortably move through the bunch when the race is on, then trying to sprint through it at the finish is probably beyond you. I'm all on for tossing lads out of races- bit you need a strong consensus from comms and race organisers

Was probably a field of about 80, but it only takes a few to make it hell for the rest. The flattish races tend to be the less safer one's to be in but its usually the one's I target. The way I see it is this
1. get fitter
2. get better at moving through the bunch
3. target hillier races 
4. get the f*ck outta A4

oflahero

happyhappy wrote: »

I saw you doing this actually.

The driver of the car then started beeping at you to stop. Which made matters worse!

Must have been someone else you're thinking of. I only had it for literally couple of seconds for the laugh before he bailed off. Maybe you're thinking of the Strata VR team!

Yep see you up the front next time...

happyhappy

JK.BMC wrote: »

Didn't see this but I can imagine the scenario- such cars by necessity need to pass the bunch on occasion, but again it's this idiotic and dangerous ''who da fxxx are you to be blowin' yer horn at me" (fist waving in the air) type of A4 rider causing the trouble.
.

JK just to be clear, there was nobody waving any hands in the air, or there was no typical type of A4 anything going on. ( unlike at the finish which was complete A4 behaviour by a few) A support vehicle (not the A4 lead or comms vehicle but a general support vehicle on the course) tried to pass the whole bunch into oncoming traffic on a open road, and then had to push into the middle of the bunch. If it happened in the same circumstances in the A1/2 race they'd think the same but because it's A4 it seems to be acceptable to some.


This is the last thing I want to say - does anyone honestly believe that if someone is knocked down by a car and seriously injured or if there's a head on collision in this situation that there's some sort of legal defence or otherwise because there's a race going on. We all need to be sensible!

cipo

I don't think anyone has a problem with a car passing a bunch when required. But this must always be done in a safe manner. I'd agree with above re car passing bunch in a4 race yday. It wasn't going up to a move / break. So there was no need to pass the bunch! I only found out afterwards that it had needed to pull in to bunch halfway up!! I was at front and only saw it pass at high speed. Thought it was a bit odd. It wasn't marshalling the a4 race. It was doing laps of circuit. It was a high speed pass that wasn't necessary.

As for the crash, I sensed it coming from 5/6k to go; some tool gives it the loud mouth crap screaming & shouting at lads that HE's moving up ON THE RIGHT as if no one else is trying to do same. It got sketchy from there, up to then it was fine (as far as I saw; I stayed top 10-15 wheels throughout).
I've been told that the crash was caused by someone pulling on a rider's handlebars which really makes me feel sick. Deserves a life ban from CI if found to be true!
Race organisers & clubs can't do anything about crazy lads in a bunch.
5-6 collarbones on a Sunday afternoon is disgraceful. We all need to get home to our families& get to work Monday! Hope all riders injured are doing ok!

Stevieg2009

cipo wrote: »

I don't think anyone has a problem with a car passing a bunch when required. But this must always be done in a safe manner. I'd agree with above re car passing bunch in a4 race yday. It wasn't going up to a move / break. So there was no need to pass the bunch! I only found out afterwards that it had needed to pull in to bunch halfway up!! I was at front and only saw it pass at high speed. Thought it was a bit odd. It wasn't marshalling the a4 race. It was doing laps of circuit. It was a high speed pass that wasn't necessary.

As for the crash, I sensed it coming from 5/6k to go; some tool gives it the loud mouth crap screaming & shouting at lads that HE's moving up ON THE RIGHT as if no one else is trying to do same. It got sketchy from there, up to then it was fine (as far as I saw; I stayed top 10-15 wheels throughout).
I've been told that the crash was caused by someone pulling on a rider's handlebars which really makes me feel sick. Deserves a life ban from CI if found to be true!
Race organisers & clubs can't do anything about crazy lads in a bunch.
5-6 collarbones on a Sunday afternoon is disgraceful. We all need to get home to our families& get to work Monday! Hope all riders injured are doing ok!

That's bonkers about the handlebars who does such a thing crazy if proven to be true but I suppose never will be I'm really shocked to hear such a thing going on in a bog standard cycle race ffs we all have to go to work of a Monday morning we except it has risks crashes do happen it's an unfortunate part of the sport..but **** like that all for a prize of 20euro