Ned Flanagan

oflahero

+1 on above - it's worth pointing out that a lot of reports said ' it was so bad, only 9 finished' or 'only 15 finished', which made it sound like the Somme - when in fact it was because everyone basically stopped to help.

happyhappy

RobFowl wrote: »

happyhappy wrote: »

Where did you get from what I said that they weren't professional? As someone who stopped and assisted the ambulance personnel, the comms and race organisers at this incident while others got back on or cycled off, you are completely misreading me.

You said they couldn't cope.
If you meant they extra help to transport the casualties due to the number that is true, but they coped extremely well and made sure all were cared for.

I was just behind accident and avoided it wit a front wheel wheelie, didn't see what caused it and don't think its helpful to speculate. We were maybe 3 k from the finish and the A3 crash was at some other location, no idea where tbh.
Personally I was highly impressed with the Order of Malta, was also highly impressed with the commisaire on scene who was calm and measured,.
The number of cyclists who stopped to help rather than push by and get almost certain points was simply phenomenal. Every one on the ground had at least 2-3 fellow cyclists around helping out. Really shows how close the community is and how good cyclists and people in general are.
The locals who rushed out with water, blankets and offering help (even lifting bikes and keeping them safe) was also great.
All in all I wouldn't rush to criticism, far more to praise on Sunday.
Well done to all and to those injured, get well soon.

It looks like we were both doing the same thing by helping out then Rob. I was in the crash but got the speed off and landed on 2 lads, one of whom was taken off on a stretcher, and I wasn't injured. I feel guilty for landing on him but it's not like I could control it. A club mate landed on me then and was more injured than me. The last impression I wanted to give was that I was criticising emergency services. End of.

The family in the house beside the crash were brilliant. Offered for me to go in and get changed when I came back to recover bikes afterwards.

Same for the comms. I've worked with him before at a race we organised and he's a decent man. I'm the guy who got his whistle and reflective jacket and went down the road to get the other races thru.

Stevieg2009

oflahero wrote: »

+1 on above - it's worth pointing out that a lot of reports said ' it was so bad, only 9 finished' or 'only 15 finished', which made it sound like the Somme - when in fact it was because everyone basically stopped to help.

That's exactly what happened people just stayed to help the lads less fortunate rather then as was previously stated keep going for certain points

CramCycle

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

That's exactly what happened people just stayed to help the lads less fortunate rather then as was previously stated keep going for certain points

In their defence, this is not a terrible thing. While great of the other riders to stop and assist, there is a point where assistance becomes a hindrance, so having a good few people carry on while some stay behind, is probably the best reaction.

You need a person per rider, if there are no follow cars, maybe a rider or two to go back to warn oncoming traffic, everyone else should leave to make access easier for the ambulance service.

This used to be part of pre race talks, about riding on if in front of the crash or if there are clearly enough people there already.

Homer1798

JK.BMC wrote: »

Rode the A3 race - I know these roads well and know the organisers for years.
A3 race was fine - hard racing throughout and generally a well contested affair. Yes there was a crash 100m from the end but I dare say that was nobody's fault but the lads themselves, and I do hope they are all ok. No point talking about wind/rain/roads/cars etc etc ad nauseum if competitive riders just get it slightly wrong in the heat of the moment. Crashes happen. Yes there was driving hailstones and a strong headwind on a slight uphill finish - but all the more reason to keep calm and delay the kick as late as possible. Fairly basic race tactic - and keep out of it, as many riders did - if it didn't suit, which is perfectly good. So a good race in my opinion in A3.

However the post-mortems after these A4 bunch crashes all bring us back to the same point - there is a gang of dangerous/nervous/aggressive riders inhabiting the A4 race groups who ultimately are the cause of the trouble. End of. Seriously. You can make all the excuses in the world - and I hear them in my club and about the place but this all comes down to the behaviour of riders.

It is actually extraordinary the amount of roaring and shouting, fist waving and general hot-headed dicking around that I encounter with the A4s, in places like the Mondello Series, Open handicaps and even in club league races. And that isn't condescension - it's what I see and hear, regularly.
I know a good deal of it is fear and self-preservation but I just wish these guys would have their mid-life crisis in a more dignified and safer way.
Simple example: coming to a junction or sharp bend, I always watch my line and especially the apex/exit from said bend. I have had numerous A4s then start roaring "ah don't be taking me on me inside, jayzus lads!!!" etc when in fact its actually good cornering and holding the racing line at speed.
I got elbowed off my leadout yesterday with 800m to go - but the last thing I would do is roar abuse at the same guy; You just have to suck it up, adjust and keep calm. If you can't get out, then you won't. Nacer Bouhanni does not ride in A4.
This has to be practiced - I suspect very very few A4s actually do this as there is no mandatory safety training/skills course for road racing. But that's another thread in itself

THIS ^

Homer1798

I'd agree that A4's tend to get a hard time re bike handling and crashes. Having riden in every grade over the last 30+ years the worst crash I ever saw was in Senior A (A1) with nearly 100 riders involved.....so big crashes are not limited to A4 indeed having raced A4 a few years ago and being warned "they are chariot races" I was in the main surprised at how civil they were (this may have changed in the last few years). The few things I did notice was how "vocal" some riders were (they are also in every grade)and some riders looked like they had never ridden in a peloton ever before such was their bike handling skills(but again there are dodgy bike handlers in every grade). As for the course last Sunday there was nothing wrong with the course, if it's true that a rider grabbed another's handlebars, thats a no no at any level of racing and shoud be reported by anyone that saw it...for the future safety of all cyclists that may encounter that clown. people say the race was too short and that was partially to blame for the crash........Mondello last night similar sized field...no crashes, ask yourself WHY ?

Harrybelafonte

Homer1798 wrote: »

I'd agree that A4's tend to get a hard time re bike handling and crashes. Having riden in every grade over the last 30+ years the worst crash I ever saw was in Senior A (A1) with nearly 100 riders involved.....so big crashes are not limited to A4 indeed having raced A4 a few years ago and being warned "they are chariot races" I was in the main surprised at how civil they were (this may have changed in the last few years). The few things I did notice was how "vocal" some riders were (they are also in every grade)and some riders looked like they had never ridden in a peloton ever before such was their bike handling skills(but again there are dodgy bike handlers in every grade). As for the course last Sunday there was nothing wrong with the course, if it's true that a rider grabbed another's handlebars, thats a no no at any level of racing and shoud be reported by anyone that saw it...for the future safety of all cyclists that may encounter that clown. people say the race was too short and that was partially to blame for the crash........Mondello last night similar sized field...no crashes, ask yourself WHY ?

It's the frequency and reason behind A4 crashes that are the issue.

Fundamental issue is bike handling. We've already mentioned how Mondello is a tester for this (I've narrowly avoided a crash in front of me in Mondello before) and I think some of the "big boys" put manners on A4s at times. In saying that, Mondello can be dodgy with surface oil at times, not sure if anyone here remembers a Sundrive rider basically getting tank slap on the second to last corner a few years ago.

dragratchet

Mondello was bone dry the other night. glorious going through that long right hander on the bottom right side of the course without fear of death. :pac:

Pawlie

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I saw an A2 lad from Waterford dashing for every available gap in the bunch on Sunday not even caring about who's line he was crossing and this wasn't even readying for a sprint.

my tuppence on racing is that you've a lot of old hands in the bunch these days who have enjoyed racing for years and could give some leadership in the beginner races. it's not a bad idea having experienced good riders giving advice. Before that I think some basic bike handling like Sprocket Rockets should be offered as a course to anyone taking out a license for the first time. Cycling companies in Ireland are making a lot of/quote]

Pawlie

I saw an A2 lad from Waterford dashing for every available gap in the bunch on Sunday not even caring about who's line he was crossing and this wasn't even readying for a sprint



That was me I reckon, and im quiet happy to continue riding the bunch the way I do, there are many more A1 and 2s that ride the same, mother of god if we waited for someone to put the red carpet out for us to pass them well we would be out the back instantly, be given an inch take a mile.

I've caused no crashes to date while racing or training, I've missed nearly 2 whole seasons due to injuries from been brought down in crashes while in the bunch and in a 12 man break, I have never blamed anyone nor moaned about the road, weather, organisers or routes or causes of these crashes, this happens it's racing baby.

Gekko1

Pawlie wrote: »

I saw an A2 lad from Waterford dashing for every available gap in the bunch on Sunday not even caring about who's line he was crossing and this wasn't even readying for a sprint



That was me I reckon, and im quiet happy to continue riding the bunch the way I do, there are many more A1 and 2s that ride the same, mother of god if we waited for someone to put the red carpet out for us to pass them well we would be out the back instantly, be given an inch take a mile.

I've caused no crashes to date while racing or training, I've missed nearly 2 whole seasons due to injuries from been brought down in crashes while in the bunch and in a 12 man break, I have never blamed anyone nor moaned about the road, weather, organisers or routes or causes of these crashes, this happens it's racing baby.

A clubmate of mine was telling me the pro's in the Ras rode like this all day every day. Haven't an issue with it & are probably not over the white line on dangerous/blind bends putting the rest of the bunch in danger.

Pawlie

Gekko1 wrote: »

A clubmate of mine was telling me the pro's in the Ras rode like this all day every day. Haven't an issue with it & are probably not over the white line on dangerous/blind bends putting the rest of the bunch in danger.

The pros do it without even thinking, it's natural for them,
Even thou none of us are pros, racing Suir Valley, Tour of Ulster, RAS Mumhan all the big one day races were the field is big and strong riders will ride the bunch like this all day long,

Folks poor bike handling in all grades and lads ****ting the bag when someone rides too close to them is the cause of the majority of crashes, it's not the route, not the decent of a climb, not the organisers, not the weather, it's the riders themselves and that what needs to be addressed,

I know 3 young kids that are all under 11 and they have way better handling than some I see racing every weekend,they have no fear of rubbing their front wheel with the others back wheel all while learning how to control their bikes as it happens.

Taxuser1

Pawlie wrote: »

I saw an A2 lad from Waterford dashing for every available gap in the bunch on Sunday not even caring about who's line he was crossing and this wasn't even readying for a sprint



That was me I reckon, and im quiet happy to continue riding the bunch the way I do, there are many more A1 and 2s that ride the same, mother of god if we waited for someone to put the red carpet out for us to pass them well we would be out the back instantly, be given an inch take a mile.

I've caused no crashes to date while racing or training, I've missed nearly 2 whole seasons due to injuries from been brought down in crashes while in the bunch and in a 12 man break, I have never blamed anyone nor moaned about the road, weather, organisers or routes or causes of these crashes, this happens it's racing baby.

i mention it, if it was even you, only because i considered it dangerous riding, ( on 2 separate occasions had to quickly react from my racing line quickly in the wet, which cause lads behind me to do the same )


i'd be fairly calm and considered in a bunch and certainly know how to ride one so it would take a bit for me to comment.

we've all crashed my man. doesn't make you a hero.

Pawlie

Taxuser1 wrote: »

i mention it, if it was even you, only because i considered it dangerous riding, ( on 2 separate occasions had to quickly react from my racing line quickly in the wet, which cause lads behind me to do the same )


i'd be fairly calm and considered in a bunch and certainly know how to ride one so it would take a bit for me to comment.

we've all crashed my man. doesn't make you a hero.

Who said anything about been a hero,
just because something upsets you and you feel the need to comment on it means nothing thou, doesn't mean your right nor does it mean riders have to ride the pelaton the way you think they should.

Anyway no one said anything to me during the race so must of been someone else

greenmat

Was following the A4 race right behind Comms car last week, uneventful until the crash. Only 1 rider was dropped all day, says it all really. Did not see any real attempt by anyone or any group to put the hammer down but can't be sure as it's hard to see exactly whats going on at the front. Was it raced hard, don't think so. If 3-4 riders had of got up the road I'd imagine we would have had a far different outcome. A4 is full of very strong riders, more so than even 2-3 years ago so maybe to expect anyone to get away is impossible. As for support car passing, he needed to pass the race, was following for best part of a lap and passed sounding his horn the whole way. I seen nothing wrong with it but maybe a lot within an A4 race might not be used to having a race officials car pass. Think he did meet an oncoming car but looked ok from where i was. I was surprised they had no motorbike marshals on the A4 race, arguably need it more. Nothing the comm can do sitting in a car behind. Race was ditch to ditch for long portions due to the narrow circuit, but riders were moving up on wrong side and just sitting there.

As for the crash, a mountain of rider all over the road to begin with, then guys disentangled themselves from the carnage. Very quickly we had Order of Malta, off duty doctor, off duty Nurse if not 2 and off duty Firefighter all of who were racing or following the race, helping to triage and treat the injured. Lots of help from riders and locals. As quick and safely as we could we cleared the road but because of the number of injured and then the A3 crash at the finish, the A1/A2 race was affected. Not the outcome anyone wanted but when you have 2 crash sites so close and so much disruption to local traffic etc it was inevitable.

If this crash was caused by a rider pulling on someone bars and anybody witnessed it, report it, this rider needs to be removed from racing indefinitely.

07Lapierre

greenmat wrote: »

Was following the A4 race right behind Comms car last week, uneventful until the crash. Only 1 rider was dropped all day, says it all really. Did not see any real attempt by anyone or any group to put the hammer down but can't be sure as it's hard to see exactly whats going on at the front. Was it raced hard, don't think so. If 3-4 riders had of got up the road I'd imagine we would have had a far different outcome. A4 is full of very strong riders, more so than even 2-3 years ago so maybe to expect anyone to get away is impossible. As for support car passing, he needed to pass the race, was following for best part of a lap and passed sounding his horn the whole way. I seen nothing wrong with it but maybe a lot within an A4 race might not be used to having a race officials car pass. Think he did meet an oncoming car but looked ok from where i was. I was surprised they had no motorbike marshals on the A4 race, arguably need it more. Nothing the comm can do sitting in a car behind. Race was ditch to ditch for long portions due to the narrow circuit, but riders were moving up on wrong side and just sitting there.

As for the crash, a mountain of rider all over the road to begin with, then guys disentangled themselves from the carnage. Very quickly we had Order of Malta, off duty doctor, off duty Nurse if not 2 and off duty Firefighter all of who were racing or following the race, helping to triage and treat the injured. Lots of help from riders and locals. As quick and safely as we could we cleared the road but because of the number of injured and then the A3 crash at the finish, the A1/A2 race was affected. Not the outcome anyone wanted but when you have 2 crash sites so close and so much disruption to local traffic etc it was inevitable.

If this crash was caused by a rider pulling on someone bars and anybody witnessed it, report it, this rider needs to be removed from racing indefinitely.

IMO there needs to be a limit put on race numbers. When racing on open roads you can't have a large peloton. Either Reduce rider numbers or the race should be run on closed roads.

Plastik

38 signed on today in the A4 Roundwood GP.

dahat

Plastik wrote: »

38 signed on today in the A4 Roundwood GP.

Jesus, that's savage low.

I'm going to Blarney tomorrow, bet that hits near 100 signing on.

Inquitus

Plastik wrote: »

38 signed on today in the A4 Roundwood GP.

Jaysus that's low, I raced it twice when I was an A4 a few years back and it always attracted a decent sized field.

buffalo

Plastik wrote: »

38 signed on today in the A4 Roundwood GP.

Could it be anything to do with the crash-blighted reputation of the finish area? I know that's why I didn't sign on.

Plastik

Hard to know. There was a decent 80+ field in the A2/A3 and there wasn't a single incident in either race. The finish has been moved for the race in recent years, I don't remember whether last year for the first time or the year or the year previous, but it finishes on the other side of the circuit now at the top of all the draggy back section and not on the filterbeds after the fast left hander.

Maybe a combination of a Saturday race not suiting some people and some A4 riders preferring flat courses (while then giving out that a load of others also turn up to the flat courses!!)

CramCycle

The A4 field was a grand size for the day. The heat was incredible and the comms were very strict on staying left which is quite difficult on such narrow roads. The group were quite tidy and well behaved. First A4 race I got good experience of working my way up through the bunch as opposed to overtaking when you get to wider roads. First one where I felt the racing behaviour was what it should be. This is more a cricism of me than anything else. Would a larger bunch have made a difference, I don't believe so. The heat meant there were few attacks early on and the pace only really picked up after I left (after the second lap). The only real benefit of the smaller bunch was that when people did do something wrong it was easier for the bunch to spot and respond. Basically, I enjoyed it and gained from it but the heat on the day I think made it quite different to other A4 races.

The circuit is certainly not a challenging one and one that suits a mixture of rider types. Marshalling was excellent as was everything else . Bit annoyed I had to bail out early, the heat was playing havoc with my blood sugars and I couldn't tell if I was dehydrated or my sugars were through the roof, road was to technical and the bunch too tight for me to check, looking back at the pace I should have dropped behind and checked and caught back on but I dropped back to the comms car and said I was leaving it there. Another move born of inexperience. Managed to check my sugars and I was still within spitting distance off the back but since the line had went through my name I decided it was time to go.

Most of the A2s and A3s seemed to come back saying it was just unbearable with the heat, many coming back a lap early saying they just needed water. Everyone else seemed to think it was too narrow at the finish, with the bunch just stopping one rider taking off. No complaints about the course and they had 80 out there.

buffalo

Plastik wrote: »

The finish has been moved for the race in recent years, I don't remember whether last year for the first time or the year or the year previous, but it finishes on the other side of the circuit now at the top of all the draggy back section and not on the filterbeds after the fast left hander.

Ah, I wish I'd known that, would've given it a lash!

Stevieg2009

Not a huge field in Navan A4 today either tough circuit split up a bit on the 2nd lap no messing or shouting e.t.c lads just rode good solid race don't think there was any incident

happyhappy

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Not a huge field in Navan A4 today either tough circuit split up a bit on the 2nd lap no messing or shouting e.t.c lads just rode good solid race don't think there was any incident

How many signed on do you know Stevieg??

Harrybelafonte

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Not a huge field in Navan A4 today either tough circuit split up a bit on the 2nd lap no messing or shouting e.t.c lads just rode good solid race don't think there was any incident

Common enough for this time of the year tbh. People starting in summer holidays etc. The usual reasons.

wav1

happyhappy wrote: »

How many signed on do you know Stevieg??

48

Stevieg2009

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Common enough for this time of the year tbh. People starting in summer holidays etc. The usual reasons.

True enough I've just seen bigger numbers attend this race in past years but yeah good weather and Father's Day lads may have decided on a day with the family

Gekko1

Regarding the longer distances, Noel Teggart A4 race in banbridge yesterday was 58miles & was a cracking race. Best A4 bunch I have been in to date. No crazy moves. No shouting. Well marshalled. Well policed. 70-odd riders signed on. Sorted the wheat from the chaff so hopefully other race organisers take note. The bunch was well split up on the final lap so left a sprint of about 20 riders at the end which left for a safe finish.

Harrybelafonte

Gekko1 wrote: »

Regarding the longer distances, Noel Teggart A4 race in banbridge yesterday was 58miles & was a cracking race. Best A4 bunch I have been in to date. No crazy moves. No shouting. Well marshalled. Well policed. 70-odd riders signed on. Sorted the wheat from the chaff so hopefully other race organisers take note. The bunch was well split up on the final lap so left a sprint of about 20 riders at the end which left for a safe finish.

A4 races in Northern Ireland tend to be better in this regard. Not sure if it's smaller numbers or...