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Ned Flanagan

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    #122
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Would comms calling riders numbers out, and giving them a one race ban, followed by a season ban for those who are found to be causing issues in every race solve alot of issues?

    Maybe even a place riders can report numbers, but only those who are consistently flagged by different clubs at different races have a word of caution initially and then a short ban?


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    #123
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,787 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    A4 race in Blarney weekend gone was good and safe. 10km loop with one decent dig, 2 got away and a Sprint for 3rd was proper and safe. Riders were well behaved from what I could see.

    A field of approx 60-70 riders with women and some other grades there as well as it was a championship race.


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    #124
    Gekko1
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Gekko1


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Would comms calling riders numbers out, and giving them a one race ban, followed by a season ban for those who are found to be causing issues in every race solve alot of issues?

    Maybe even a place riders can report numbers, but only those who are consistently flagged by different clubs at different races have a word of caution initially and then a short ban?
    For this to work I would assume that moto comms need to be in the race which doesn't always happen from what I have witnessed. It was suggested to me at one race that if I had a problem with dangerous rider behaviour then I should have went down to the comms car & report it. Like yeah I'm going to leave my position in the bunch to do that & then in my case swing off the back hoping to get back on once the hammer goes down.

    Does anyone know why there is a lack of moto comms in races? Is it lack of comms that can ride a motorbike & need to be driven behind each category?


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    #125
    wpd
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭wpd


    the discussion of how to make A4 racing safer is an annual topic

    In my opinion the following should be implemented to try and help with safety

    1. no prizes given at all only points, it is meant to be a starter/development level
    2. similar to IVCA, riders must attend a certified safety briefing before racing
    3. competitors should either complete 12 certified club rides/events or a full on safety programme, their application should race should
    then be signed off by a club official or the safety programme provider.
    4. numbers should be limited to a max depending on course
    5. A4 must marshall an event once a year in order to maintain licence

    I have ridden club races where a1 riders rode as marshalls in lower grade groups and didnt see any benefit as you need a specific type of personality to influence riders. so not mad about that idea.

    Another idea might be practice races on a safe circuit where they can do laps and issues be pointed out / addressed.


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    #126
    Gekko1
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Gekko1


    dahat wrote: »
    A4 race in Blarney weekend gone was good and safe. 10km loop with one decent dig, 2 got away and a Sprint for 3rd was proper and safe. Riders were well behaved from what I could see.

    A field of approx 60-70 riders with women and some other grades there as well as it was a championship race.
    Maybe a few people have wised up a little since last week..


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    #127
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    Gekko1 wrote: »
    Maybe a few people have wised up a little since last week..

    Until the next round of chaos.....


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    #128
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,787 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Gekko1 wrote: »
    Maybe a few people have wised up a little since last week..

    No, I think it's a race by race situation.

    My main belief is that numbers should be limited to 80 for A4. Races o have been at this year have seen a 137 A4 race with another near or just over a 100.


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    #129
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    wpd wrote: »
    1. no prizes given at all only points, it is meant to be a starter/development level
    Nothing to do with safety, but I 100% agree with this. I struggle to afford racing but I would never consider the money if all I got was a cheap 5euro medal with a picture of a bike and the name of the race.
    2. similar to IVCA, riders must attend a certified safety briefing before racing
    Not a bad idea, everyone seems to have a different idea of what good racing skill is, hell my opinion changes every year.
    3. competitors should either complete 12 certified club rides/events or a full on safety programme, their application should race should
    then be signed off by a club official or the safety programme provider.
    I wouldn't sign off on someone being competent, I'd happily sign off that they were shown, showed and proved the ability but I would never claim they are.
    4. numbers should be limited to a max depending on course
    This should be in the safety statement of every race, I was certainly under the impression it was required by CI.
    5. A4 must marshall an event once a year in order to maintain licence
    Never happen and forcing people into such things will only lead to issues. Clubs already use their members and some of us even volunteer for others when needed. Logistically it would be a nightmare and organisers would be left with a load of marshals they do not trust standing round looking busy.
    Another idea might be practice races on a safe circuit where they can do laps and issues be pointed out / addressed.
    Corkagh park is pretty ideal for this for Dublin based clubs, club leagues are where the rest of this should happen. Suck up the PC attitude and tell people when they are being idiotic and if they cannot take the abuse, then let them go.


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    #130
    Miklos
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Miklos


    wpd wrote: »
    1. no prizes given at all only points, it is meant to be a starter/development level

    That's a really good idea, and would help justify limiting the fields.


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    #131
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Miklos wrote: »
    That's a really good idea, and would help justify limiting the fields.

    Do you really think any A4 rider is motivated by prizes ????


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    #132
    Miklos
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Miklos


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Do you really think any A4 rider is motivated by prizes ????

    No, but I would imagine it would make it easier for the clubs missing out on 40 entry fees to stomach limiting the field if it didn't have to give prizes.


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    #133
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Do you really think any A4 rider is motivated by prizes ????

    I think the point was that if your not handing out money, it makes it a cheaper event to host and therefore you can justify limiting the numbers to an extent.

    Personally, it is a point that comes up every year and if people think taking prize money away from A4s will lower the cost significantly enough to reduce field sizes, then they are probably mistaken.

    Most clubs allow big fields for two main reasons. One, unless it is pre entry, then your awaiting people to arrive on the day. If you turn away people after the first 80 arrive, then not only will those who were turned away go elsewhere next year, there is a good chance that others will not take the risk. This means that you run the risk of not having enough riders to field a decent race.

    Two, running a race costs money, my understanding is that they are not exactly profitable for a club, we are not like triathlon charging 50 to 80euro a race but ambulances still must be paid, local hall rentals, petrol, supplies, local buy in etc.


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    #134
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Agree with Cram, don't think the lack of prizes will have any effect on A4 racing on any level.

    Not convinced its any worse than in the past relative to the increased umbers now.

    Main issue in due to SM every crash is now publicised in some way and rapid responses mean there is a lot of comment out there, some informed some (to be polite) less so...

    It's bike racing, there will be crashes, it you can't handle that don't do it.

    That said limiting sizes can and should be done relatively easily, one club in the North (why do they seem to do things better!!) simply ran an extra A4 race one numbers went over 80 so everyone who turned up got to race...


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    #135
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    RobFowl wrote: »
    That said limiting sizes can and should be done relatively easily, one club in the North (why do they seem to do things better!!) simply ran an extra A4 race one numbers went over 80 so everyone who turned up got to race...

    Is this a plausible thing to do? It makes sense but do you need extra comms. It really does make sense if the lap size can accomodate it


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    #136
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Is this a plausible thing to do? It makes sense but do you need extra comms. It really does make sense if the lap size can accomodate it

    Volunteer comms on the day usually available (as not elite less concerns re results etc) and often follow races. Once fully accredited comm there for sign on, guidance etc don't see any issues.
    Certainly have see it done and if lap/race timings adjusted could be done and has been done quite easily.


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    #137
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    RobFowl wrote: »

    Main issue in due to SM every crash is now publicised in some way and rapid responses mean there is a lot of comment out there, some informed some (to be polite) less so...

    It's bike racing, there will be crashes, it you can't handle that don't do it.

    I've said this before, but will repeat. Your point is fair, however, there are definitely more crashes than there should be and I don't think it unfair that some efforts be made that newcomers and some of the not-so-newcomers bring some or learn some better handling skills. My examples of pointless crashes would be the classics I've witnessed and almost taken out by:

    1. Clumsily reaching for bottle mid-bunch trying to climb. Dropping bottle into bunch.
    2. Unclipping during a sprint.
    3. Panicking and swerving at the sight of a pothole.
    4. Panicking and swerving cos your handlebars touched someone else's.
    5. The best one happened me a few weeks ago in Derry... going straight ahead instead of around a corner, ploughing into a ditch and almost taking the rider on your outside with you (outside rider saved by sudden appearance of side road).

    In saying that, I've been lucky and avoided numerous crashes over the years, I understand you have not and continue to race. I've decided I'm out though and won't be racing on the road for the foreseeable future.


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    #138
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    In saying that, I've been lucky and avoided numerous crashes over the years, I understand you have not and continue to race..

    Jaysus, open season on poor Rob. Only last night after Koutobia told me I should bid for Jep's wheels, asked him why (shed full of the feckers).
    So you'll have spares for the next time you crash....

    Anyway, chicks dig scars.....


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    #139
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Jaysus, open season on poor Rob. Only last night after Koutobia told me I should bid for Jep's wheels, asked him why (shed full of the feckers).
    So you'll have spares for the next time you crash....

    Anyway, chicks dig scars.....

    No way man, I'm not having a go, I just know you've had your fair share and that I appreciate that you live by your own statement, and using that to highlight the fact that I'm living same, as in I don't want that risk for the time being for many reasons so am extricating myself from the scene (well road and track, MTB race in Donegal in a few weeks and an adventure race a few weeks after).


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    #140
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    My examples of pointless crashes would be the classics I've witnessed and almost taken out by:

    1. Clumsily reaching for bottle mid-bunch trying to climb. Dropping bottle into bunch.
    2. Unclipping during a sprint.
    3. Panicking and swerving at the sight of a pothole.
    4. Panicking and swerving cos your handlebars touched someone else's.
    5. The best one happened me a few weeks ago in Derry... going straight ahead instead of around a corner, ploughing into a ditch and almost taking the rider on your outside with you (outside rider saved by sudden appearance of side road).

    This is where mandatory club league races would come in, every year in ours, all of the riders get a very pleasant talk about not being idiots both from their club reps and also from the race organisers. Even though they are on well known circuits to most of the riders, they still go through it all. They also take feed back from riders and send it out either via mail, whats app or work it into the next few pre race talks. You also get more fo the in group instructions from other riders, with the rides home often being an "intro to racing" conversation for the first few races of the year from the A1/A2 riders to the newbies.


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